Gun Control Debate #4

[bluesneakers]

I can't see the reasoning behind that.

Maybe if the 300 million people are accompanied by 300 million guns.

 

[Jennifer17]

35 million people spread out around a country of our size, it just wouldnt be like it is now. We have 330 some odd million people in this country, from all corners of the world, and so many cultures, that Im like, I think it was Carlin, who said it, Im surprised we get along as well as we do.

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Australians are not spread all over the country, they are densely populated on the eastern coast. Australia also is very diverse. 26% of the current population was born outside of Australia.

 

[ohreally]

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...3010/florida-gov-rick-scott-signs-gun-package

Florida Gov. Rick Scott Signs Gun Package

As a Floridian, I don't have a problem with the passing of this law package.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

35 million people spread out around a country of our size, it just wouldnt be like it is now. We have 330 some odd million people in this country, from all corners of the world, and so many cultures, that Im like, I think it was Carlin, who said it, Im surprised we get along as well as we do.

I hope I’m misunderstanding your point, rsd.

But just in case anyone else misunderstands: Immigration doesn't correlate with gun violence. Data shows it. I posted about a dozen links to studies in thread No. 3.

What research shows about immigration and crime
https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-says

Immigration doesn’t bring crime to US
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say

Contrary to Trump’s Claims, Immigrants Are Less Likely to Commit Crimes
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/...ad.php?366960-Gun-Control-Debate-3&p=13967208

Census data and American Immigration Council research — The Criminalization of Immigration in the United States
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states

link to my Thread #2 post with more data and sources:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?366960-Gun-Control-Debate-3&p=13967208#post13967208

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yep, that site is considered to have a very far right bias

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-center/

Far-right confirmation bias, too, imho. “Hey, look! Here’s one case that proves all the contrary research and data wrong.” It’s unfortunate, methinks.

Confirmation bias:
“Confirmation bias, the tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with one’s existing beliefs. This biased approach to decision making is largely unintentional and often results in ignoring inconsistent information. Existing beliefs can include one’s expectations in a given situation and predictions about a particular outcome. People are especially likely to process information to support their own beliefs when the issue is highly important or self-relevant.”

https://www.britannica.com/science/confirmation-bias

 

[rsd1200]

Maybe if the 300 million people are accompanied by 300 million guns.

No. Its just a thought, that if we never populated to that level. Australia's population never exploded to our level. Yet we are constantly compared to them.

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[EuTuCroquet?]

No. Its just a thought, that if we never populated to that level. Australia's population never exploded to our level. Yet we are constantly compared to them.

Yes, every country is different, but none is so exceptional as to make critical comparing/contrasting of potentially correlating/causal data entirely irrelevant. In my opinion.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

As a Floridian, I don't have a problem with the passing of this law package.

[emoji120][emoji119][emoji106][emoji122]

From the link:

Florida Gov. Rick Scott has signed legislation tightening gun restrictions in the state. Among other things, the legislation raises the legal age for gun purchases to 21, institutes a waiting period of three days, and allows for the arming of school personnel who are not full-time teachers.

In a statement, Scott's office highlights mental health provisions in the bill:

"Creates "Risk Protection Orders," which allows a court to prohibit a violent or mentally ill individual from purchasing or possessing a firearm or any other weapon. If a law enforcement officer believes that a person poses a danger to themselves or others by possessing a firearm, they can petition a court to have the individual immediately surrender the firearm and prohibit them from possessing or purchasing firearms;
"Allows law enforcement to seize firearms when a person has been detained under the 'Baker Act.' Also prohibits a person who has been 'adjudicated mentally defective' or who has been 'committed to a mental institution' from owning or possessing a firearm."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...3010/florida-gov-rick-scott-signs-gun-package

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Guns have killed more Americans in last 50 years than all US wars put together (2017 story)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tan-vietnam-vegas-mass-shooting-a7984421.html

 

[rsd1200]

I hope I’m misunderstanding your point, rsd.

But just in case anyone else misunderstands: Immigration doesn't correlate with gun violence. Data shows it. I posted about a dozen links to studies in thread No. 3.

What research shows about immigration and crime
https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-says

Immigration doesn’t bring crime to US
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say

Contrary to Trump’s Claims, Immigrants Are Less Likely to Commit Crimes
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/...ad.php?366960-Gun-Control-Debate-3&p=13967208

Census data and American Immigration Council research — The Criminalization of Immigration in the United States
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states

link to my Thread #2 post with more data and sources:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?366960-Gun-Control-Debate-3&p=13967208#post13967208

Oh, yes, you did. Im sorry if any one felt that way. My family on one side, are German immigrants and a mix on the other, one set fled here, escaping religious prosecution in their country of origin. I only meant that we are all so different. Even within Appalachia, we are similar, but practice different cultures throughout the region. We are a melting pot.

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[rsd1200]

Yes, every country is different, but none is so exceptional as to make critical comparing/contrasting of potentially correlating/causal data entirely irrelevant. In my opinion.

I agree I dont find them more or less exceptional than the U.S. though. The bull is already out of the barn here. We gotta study why these folks are doing what they do, how to help make it stop, even if its a semi ban. We banned them before, but not really... So why was there a drop? Remember "going postal"? What helped with stopping that phenomena?

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[EuTuCroquet?]

Whew!! :loveyou:

Oh, yes, you did. Im sorry if any one felt that way. My family on one side, are German immigrants and a mix on the other, one set fled here, escaping religious prosecution in their country of origin. I only meant that we are all so different. Even within Appalachia, we are similar, but practice different cultures throughout the region. We are a melting pot.

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[kdg411]

NRA sues Florida over gun bill same day Gov. Scott signed it into law

The complaint says the new law prohibits law-abiding citizens between the ages of 18 and 21 from lawfully purchasing a firearm of any kind.

"This blanket ban violates the fundamental rights of thousands of responsible, law-abiding Florida citizens and is thus invalid under the Second and Fourteenth Amendments," it says.


https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/03/09/nra-sues-florida-over-gun-bill-same-day-gov-scott-signed-law/412365002/

 

[rsd1200]

Whew!! :loveyou:

:loveyou: I don't get things out quite right sometimes.

 

[rsd1200]

NRA sues Florida over gun bill same day Gov. Scott signed it into law

The complaint says the new law prohibits law-abiding citizens between the ages of 18 and 21 from lawfully purchasing a firearm of any kind.

"This blanket ban violates the fundamental rights of thousands of responsible, law-abiding Florida citizens and is thus invalid under the Second and Fourteenth Amendments," it says.


https://www.tallahassee.com/story/n...bill-same-day-gov-scott-signed-law/412365002/

We don't allow folks, old enough to die for their country, to drink alcohol until they are 21. It's for a reason. The law used to be lax on that stance, but we have learned some hard lessons. I'm not an NRA member, nor supporter, however, if an under 21 y/o wants to hunt, then, I see no problem with them having a basic hunting rifle. No anything else though.

 

[MaryG12]

I'd bet a dime to a donut that if we took 300 million people out of this country, the per capita would drop drastically.

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According to a fast Google search, in 1967 the population of the USA was 198.7 million.

And now it's 327 million.

Not good.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

NRA sues Florida over gun bill same day Gov. Scott signed it into law

The complaint says the new law prohibits law-abiding citizens between the ages of 18 and 21 from lawfully purchasing a firearm of any kind.

"This blanket ban violates the fundamental rights of thousands of responsible, law-abiding Florida citizens and is thus invalid under the Second and Fourteenth Amendments," it says.


https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/03/09/nra-sues-florida-over-gun-bill-same-day-gov-scott-signed-law/412365002/

This is crap, per the SCOTUS’ Heller decision that everyone champions, even the NRA.

“Blanket ban?” Hogwash! It’s spelled out: States have a right to “impose conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

Downloadable pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

From the District of Columbia vs Heller decision:

“Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.

“It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.

“The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

“Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. (Pp. 54–56.)”

 

[Blef]

This is crap, per the SCOTUS’ Heller decision that everyone champions, even the NRA.

It’s very clear the NRA is pro-gun industry and anti-Constitution. To claim otherwise is hypocritical, IMO. (And the SCOTUS’ O.)

To be pro-Heller, by definition, is to be pro-regulation, per the 2008 Supreme Court decision.

It’s very clearly spelled out.

Downloadable pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

From the District of Columbia vs Heller decision:

“Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.

“It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.

“The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

“Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. (Pp. 54–56.)”

BBM. You are not wrong. The NRA is funded by the gun industry. They have a vested interest in having people buy guns. They aren't concerned about gun safety, the constitution or deaths, they are concerned about selling as many guns as possible so they get more cash in from the gun industry

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

BBM. You are not wrong. The NRA is funded by the gun industry. They have a vested interest in having people buy guns. They aren't concerned about gun safety, the constitution or deaths, they are concerned about selling as many guns as possible so they get more cash in from the gun industry

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1

And quite possibly funded by Russian special interests, too.

Depth Of Russian Politician's Cultivation Of NRA Ties Revealed

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/01/5900...-politicians-cultivation-of-nra-ties-revealed

“A prominent Kremlin-linked Russian politician has methodically cultivated ties with leaders of the National Rifle Association and documented efforts in real time over six years to leverage those connections and gain deeper access into American politics, NPR has learned.”

 

[rsd1200]

This happened in Appalachia 1921. I think that maybe it still resonates in my region, and that if it happened once, it could happen twice, and it did happen, just in another region, by another company. Folks want to defend themselves but they don't normally go looking for trouble.

Battle of Blair Mountain

September 4 marks the end of fighting at the Battle of Blair Mountain, which was the largest example of class war in U.S. history. It was fought over the course of five days in 1921 by 10,000 coalminers. The coalminers were rebelling against inhumane conditions in the West Virginia coalfields. The region led the nation in mine fatalities and the coal companies controlled almost every aspect of mining families’ lives.

This began two years of determined efforts on the miners’ part to unionize these fields. The first efforts were focused on Logan County. The union organizers met stiff resistance from the county sheriff, Don Chafin, who was in the employment of coal operators. Chafin used intimidation, beatings, and even murder to keep the union out.

The Ludlow Massacre of Colorado

On April 20, 1914, members of the Colorado National Guard opened fire on a group of armed coal miners and set fire to a makeshift settlement in Ludlow, Colorado, where more than a thousand striking workers and their families were camped out.

After getting evicted from their company-owned homes, the workers based their operations in makeshift tent cities surrounding the mines, the largest of which was the Ludlow camp. National Guardsmen set fire to the Ludlow colony. Thirteen residents who tried to flee were shot and killed as the camp burned to the ground, and many more burned to death. Discovered among the ruins the following morning was a women’s infirmary, where four women and eleven children had sought to escape the fighting by hiding in a cellar-like pit.

To many Americans, the massacre exposed the consequences of unchecked corporate might, and it roused the conscience of a country that had previously demonstrated impassive ambivalence toward organized labor.

The Battle of Blair Mountain & The Matewan Massecre
https://zinnedproject.org/2015/09/battle-of-blair-mountain-ends/

The Ludlow Massacre
https://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-ludlow-massacre-still-matters

The Ludlow Massacre ~ Woody Guthrie (A National Treasure, imo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDd64suDz1A

The 1913, Christmas Eve Massacre, Copper Strike, Michigan. 73 children died.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgrPK2CNuJg