Gun Control Debate #4

[rsd1200]

According to a fast Google search, in 1967 the population of the USA was 198.7 million.

And now it's 327 million.

Not good.

I am at the last of the Boomers. Idk if our children are having as many children though.

 

[bluesneakers]

And quite possibly funded by Russian special interests, too.

Depth Of Russian Politician's Cultivation Of NRA Ties Revealed

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/01/5900...-politicians-cultivation-of-nra-ties-revealed

“A prominent Kremlin-linked Russian politician has methodically cultivated ties with leaders of the National Rifle Association and documented efforts in real time over six years to leverage those connections and gain deeper access into American politics, NPR has learned.”

More...
Senator asks whether NRA used Russian funds to free other money for politics

Wyden first sent queries to the NRA in early February in response to a McClatchy News report that the FBI was investigating whether Alexander Torshin, a top Kremlin central banker with close ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin, had funneled money to the organization. The NRA gave an unusually early endorsement to Donald Trump’s presidential campaign in May 2016 and became his biggest financial backer, spending $30 million on his behalf.

The group forged particularly close ties with Torshin, who attended several of its national conventions, hosted senior NRA officials on a December 2015 trip to Moscow and helped found a Russian gun-rights group in 2013. The FBI got interested in Torshin after Spanish law enforcement authorities issued a secret investigative report that found he helped Russian organized crime figures launder money into banks and hotels in Spain — an allegation Torshin has denied.

 

[rsd1200]

This is crap, per the SCOTUS’ Heller decision that everyone champions, even the NRA.

“Blanket ban?” Hogwash! It’s clear the NRA is pro-gun industry and anti-Constitution. MOO

To be pro-Heller, by definition, is to be pro-regulation, per the 2008 Supreme Court decision. To claim otherwise is ill informed, if not baldly hypocritical, IMO. (And the SCOTUS’ O.)

It’s spelled out: States have a right to “impose conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

Downloadable pdf
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

From the District of Columbia vs Heller decision:

“Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.

“It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues.

“The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

“Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. (Pp. 54–56.)”

Jumping off your post, this is an interesting read.

https://www.thoughtco.com/obama-gun-laws-passed-by-congress-3367595

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Jumping off your post, this is an interesting read.

https://www.thoughtco.com/obama-gun-laws-passed-by-congress-3367595

Interesting read, thank you.

From the link:

“Perhaps the most significant Obama gun control measure was not a law but a rule that required the Social Security Administration to report disability-benefit recipients with mental health conditions to the FBI’s background check system, which is used to screen firearm buyers. Obama's successor, Republican President Donald Trump, rescinded the rule in 2017.”

 

[ohreally]

Everything I have read about the new law changes the puchasing age from 18 to 21. Unless there is fine print in the law an eighteen year old will still legally be allowed to own any legal gun. It can be passed down to them from family members, given as a gift to them or loaned to them. At least this is the way I read it.

 

[rsd1200]

Interesting read, thank you.

From the link:

“Perhaps the most significant Obama gun control measure was not a law but a rule that required the Social Security Administration to report disability-benefit recipients with mental health conditions to the FBI’s background check system, which is used to screen firearm buyers. Obama's successor, Republican President Donald Trump, rescinded the rule in 2017.”

It shed some light on how far the NRA went too.

 

[fruity]

35 million people spread out around a country of our size, it just wouldnt be like it is now. We have 330 some odd million people in this country, from all corners of the world, and so many cultures, that Im like, I think it was Carlin, who said it, Im surprised we get along as well as we do.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Over 50% of Australians or their parents were born overseas so we’re pretty aware of multiculturalism here. And while I see the point you are trying to make, we don’t live ‘spread out’ at all. Over 80% of the population lives on the east coast.

I think your gun laws should be applicable for the guns they were written about. Newer and updated guns should fall under newer and updated laws.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Everything I have read about the new law changes the puchasing age from 18 to 21. Unless there is fine print in the law an eighteen year old will still legally be allowed to own any legal gun. It can be passed down to them from family members, given as a gift to them or loaned to them. At least this is the way I read it.

Yes, I had the same interpretation. Which is why this isn’t a “blanket ban,” as the NRA claims, imo.

The new law equalizes the buying age to 21.

To my thinking, the NRA is challenging this because other states might follow. They hope fewer states will pass similar laws — other state legislatures are considering similar laws now — and Congress might eventually follow.

In 2010, the lobbyists filed two federal lawsuits in Texas to force the state to sell handguns to 18-20 year olds.

Hm. That’s potentially a lot of delayed gun sales if this Florida law stands.

Editorial: Handguns for 18-Year-Olds?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/opinion/26fri1.html

 

[rosemadderlake]

In “Why We Should Lower the Voting Age to 16,” Laurence Steinberg writes:

The young people who have come forward to call for gun control in the wake of the mass shooting at their high school in Parkland, Fla., are challenging the tiresome stereotype of American kids as indolent narcissists whose brains have been addled by smartphones. They offer an inspiring example of thoughtful, eloquent protest.

Unfortunately, when it comes to electing lawmakers whose decisions about gun control and other issues affect their lives, these high schoolers lack any real power. This needs to change: The federal voting age in the United States should be lowered from 18 to 16.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/learning/should-the-voting-age-be-lowered-to-16.html

Wellll??? Just maybe if we were old enough to die in war at 18, and if teens are old enough to die in school at 16, I most certainly do think they are well capable of voting at 16, too. I am 100% for it.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Seconded, rose!

In “Why We Should Lower the Voting Age to 16,” Laurence Steinberg writes:

The young people who have come forward to call for gun control in the wake of the mass shooting at their high school in Parkland, Fla., are challenging the tiresome stereotype of American kids as indolent narcissists whose brains have been addled by smartphones. They offer an inspiring example of thoughtful, eloquent protest.

Unfortunately, when it comes to electing lawmakers whose decisions about gun control and other issues affect their lives, these high schoolers lack any real power. This needs to change: The federal voting age in the United States should be lowered from 18 to 16.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/07/learning/should-the-voting-age-be-lowered-to-16.html

Wellll??? Just maybe if we were old enough to die in war at 18, and if teens are old enough to die in school at 16, I most certainly do think they are well capable of voting at 16, too. I am 100% for it.

 

[Footwarrior]

We don't allow folks, old enough to die for their country, to drink alcohol until they are 21. It's for a reason. The law used to be lax on that stance, but we have learned some hard lessons. I'm not an NRA member, nor supporter, however, if an under 21 y/o wants to hunt, then, I see no problem with them having a basic hunting rifle. No anything else though.

Other nations treat sporting firearms differently than handguns and military style rifles. America is fixated on firearms designed to kill people. We are a nation scared to death of our fellow citizens. The combination of fear and loaded weapons kept in easy reach makes our nation less safe than our peers in the developed world.

Australia figured this out. They defined classes of firearms and have rules appropriate to each class of weapon. They recognize that a bolt action .22 rifle creates less risk to the public than an AR-15. That a traditional deer rifle is not as likely to be used for crime as a semi automatic pistol.

 

[rsd1200]

Over 50% of Australians or their parents were born overseas so we’re pretty aware of multiculturalism here. And while I see the point you are trying to make, we don’t live ‘spread out’ at all. Over 80% of the population lives on the east coast.

I think your gun laws should be applicable for the guns they were written about. Newer and updated guns should fall under newer and updated laws.

We have a lot of folks who live on our coastlines too. Many cities were formed near waterways, and the ocean, to move folks goods, along with themselves, by waterway as the topography in many areas here is rough and difficult to travel. There weren't highways nor trains. This is one reason folks stopped inside the Appalachian Mountain Region. It was more difficult to cross the mountains in the 1700s. There still tends to be a sparser population in some our interior states, than others. With that said, I have never said that I am against new legislation regarding gun laws.

 

[Footwarrior]

Over 50% of Australians or their parents were born overseas so we’re pretty aware of multiculturalism here. And while I see the point you are trying to make, we don’t live ‘spread out’ at all. Over 80% of the population lives on the east coast.

I think your gun laws should be applicable for the guns they were written about. Newer and updated guns should fall under newer and updated laws.

Australia is a lot like the United States. Urban areas with a lot of people, rural areas with low density and vast stretches of land where almost nobody lives.

In one way that is already true. Muzzle loading black powder rifles and muskets are not classified as firearms under federal law. You can buy one without filling out any paperwork or getting a background check.

 

[Gardenista]

I hope I’m misunderstanding your point, rsd.

But just in case anyone else misunderstands: Immigration doesn't correlate with gun violence. Data shows it. I posted about a dozen links to studies in thread No. 3.

What research shows about immigration and crime
https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-says

Immigration doesn’t bring crime to US
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say

Contrary to Trump’s Claims, Immigrants Are Less Likely to Commit Crimes
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/...ad.php?366960-Gun-Control-Debate-3&p=13967208

Census data and American Immigration Council research — The Criminalization of Immigration in the United States
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states

link to my Thread #2 post with more data and sources:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?366960-Gun-Control-Debate-3&p=13967208#post13967208

How can their numbers be valid when we have no idea how many illegal aliens are here?

 

[rsd1200]

Under Federal Law (see link 1)

Handguns
Licensed firearms dealers
Dealers may not sell or deliver a handgun or ammunition for a handgun to any person the dealer has reasonable cause to believe is under age 21.7
Long Guns (Rifles and Shotguns)
Dealers may not sell or deliver a long gun, or ammunition for a long gun, to any person the dealer knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under age 18.8

Unlicensed persons
Unlicensed persons may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer a handgun or handgun ammunition to any person the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is under age 18, with certain exceptions*.9
Unlicensed persons may sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer a long gun or long gun ammunition to a person of any age.

Summary of State Law ( also see link 1)

Several states and the District of Columbia impose minimum age requirements that extend beyond those contained in federal law. Those laws generally fall into four categories:

• Laws imposing a stricter minimum age for handgun purchases than federal law;
• Laws imposing a minimum age for all long gun purchases, from licensed or unlicensed sellers;
• Laws imposing age requirements for possession of handguns that are stricter than federal law; and
• Laws imposing a minimum age for possession of long guns.

Federal and State Laws Re; Child Access Prevention
Guns in homes pose a clear risk to the safety of children, and when those guns are not stored safely or securely, the risk only increases, resulting in tragic shootings, including unintentional discharges and suicides, that are all too common in America today. Child access prevention laws hold gun owners accountable for the safe storage of firearms, imposing liability for failing to take simple yet important measures to prevent guns from falling into young hands. ( See link 2)

(1) Gifford's Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence
http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/who-can-have-a-gun/minimum-age/

(2) Gifford's Law Center Summary of Fed & State Law, Re; Child Access Prevention
http://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/child-consumer-safety/child-access-prevention/

 

[rosemadderlake]

Other nations treat sporting firearms differently than handguns and military style rifles. America is fixated on firearms designed to kill people. We are a nation scared to death of our fellow citizens. The combination of fear and loaded weapons kept in easy reach makes our nation less safe than our peers in the developed world.

Australia figured this out. They defined classes of firearms and have rules appropriate to each class of weapon. They recognize that a bolt action .22 rifle creates less risk to the public than an AR-15. That a traditional deer rifle is not as likely to be used for crime as a semi automatic pistol.

Jumping off your post Footwarrior.

Bbm : Yes, agreed. The sad part is so did we recognize it, too. And then we let the assault ban expire in 2004. And now, that horse left the barn so long ago, and the issue is so politically mired, it's going to take a Herculean effort to turn the thinking around. I would love nothing more than sensible regulation, like Canada, or the ability to stick to a consensus of banning certain weapons, like Australia.

Because we are at critical mass. Ironically, in the name of liberty, we are becoming a nation of outlaws. And this is not the nation I grew up in.

On the other hand, perhaps it is the eloquence of the teens from Parkland Florida who are meeting with legislators, governor, the president, gathering steam, nationally broadcast Town Hall, gonna go March on Washington, got Walmart, and Dicks behind them, got some big name funding behind them, not afraid to tell the NRA to stick it, that there is hope. They achieved more in three weeks than I don't know, how long... And all this in the midst of their trauma, one that most of us will never know.

And the hope is that we wake up and ask ourselves, liberty at what price? Because these kids are the future.

 

[RANCH]

For six years I lived in constant fear of a stalker.

For six years I lived in constant fear of a stalker. He harassed me, in person and online, at all hours of the day and night. I notified police and made several reports. A judge granted me a protective order. But still, the stalking and harassment continued. I truly felt all alone. He was slowly taking my life from me. It wasn’t until the death threats began that I knew I had to take matters into my own hands. I got a gun.

We already know that dangerous criminals are not waiting for legal authority to carry firearms for their criminal activity. National reciprocity legislation is not for them. It’s for law-abiding citizens who wish to travel across state lines without fear of violating the law.

https://medium.com/@NRA/for-six-years-i-lived-in-constant-fear-of-a-stalker-8104ae219a1b

 

[RANCH]

Youngstown woman pulls her gun, scares off burglar

Reports said a 56-year-old woman inside a West Side home today scared off a burglar by pulling a gun on him she had hidden under her pillow.

http://www.vindy.com/news/2018/jan/22/youngstown-woman-pulls-her-gun-scares-burglar/

 

[RANCH]

Pistol Packing Woman Foils Keithville Burglary

Sheriff Steve Prator says the incident happened just before 10 a.m., when deputies got a call from the 11000 of Peggy Lane in Keithville regarding a burglary in progress. The homeowner told deputies several men were at her front door dressed in hoods and carrying backpacks. When she met them at the door with a handgun the suspects fled in an SUV that was parked in the bushes.

http://710keel.com/pistol-packing-woman-foils-keithville-burglary/

 

[Gardenista]

Crime in 2017: Updated Analysis

Crime, Violence, and Murder Remain Near Historic Lows

This update to the Brennan Center’s September report finds that the overall crime rate, violent crime rate, and murder rate in the nation's 30 largest cities are estimated to decline this year. Its projections directly undercut claims of a nationwide crime wave.


https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/crime-2017-updated-analysis