Gun Control Debate #6

[Richard]

When seconds count, police are only minutes away.

I don't think any reasonable person would suggest that ALL teachers be forced to carry a firearm. It is one of the idiotic things that anti-gun people come up with in their arguments. A teacher's job is to teach students, but also to protect them from harm. As things stand today in most school districts, it is illegal to carry or possess a firearm on or near school grounds. Those laws have been ignored by the persons who have committed murder in our schools.

I agree with teachers who say that they do not wish to carry a firearm. That should be their personal choice. If they are not trained in the use of a firearm, and have no interest in them, or have strong convictions against them, then they probably would present more of a liability or danger by being armed and they should not carry a firearm.

But, there are some teachers who ARE well trained and very familiar with firearms who COULD provide a significant level of protection to their students in the event of a school shooting situation. Allowing a teacher (or other school employee) to legally carry a concealed weapon is what the discussion is about in some legislatures regarding enhanced school security.

Now, such a measure would have to be carefully considered and the level of training needed would have to be carefully planned and monitored. An armed teacher would have to coordinate very carefully with any assigned security police regarding procedures and safety.

 

[ohreally]

I work in a school in Florida, and under the new law I would be able to be considered to carry at school. I have no interest in signing up for the program. I know several people that also do not wish to carry. None of them are against others carrying, they just don't want to carry. I also know some that are ready and willing to carry with the proper training. I have not heard anyone locally say they are against the law, just the concern that there is proper training and background checks.

 

[flourish]

'Build Your Own AR-15' class in Michigan draws a crowd just days after protest

http://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/build-ar-15-class-michigan-draws-crowd-days/story?id=54067754

 

[human]

I was reading online about a visitor to the US from Auatralia. He was stopped for a traffic stop and he got out of his car to give the officer his info. He was ordered to the ground. The visitor was terrified. In Australia , as in many countries, as a show of respecf, the driver gets out and goes to the officer. That is the way it was in the US. I am not sure when that stopped.

Police are terrified that everyone has the potential to have a gun. That is why we see these crazy shootings. They can say whatever they want trying to be all macho.

The bottom line is that they are scared,

Look up the statistics for LE and alcoholism, suicide,domestic violence amd divorce. That tells a story.

 

[Elley Mae]

Never heard of getting out and approaching the police vehicle when pulled over in usa, never. If i was a cop and the person i pulled over got out i would immediately think they had something they didn’t want me to see.

When was it that way? I’ve been driving since 72 and it was always stay in vehicle and wait for officer to approach your vehicle.

I was reading online about a visitor to the US from Auatralia. He was stopped for a traffic stop and he got out of his car to give the officer his info. He was ordered to the ground. The visitor was terrified. In Australia , as in many countries, as a show of respecf, the driver gets out and goes to the officer. That is the way it was in the US. I am not sure when that stopped.

Police are terrified that everyone has the potential to have a gun. That is why we see these crazy shootings. They can say whatever they want trying to be all macho.

The bottom line is that they are scared,

Look up the statistics for LE and alcoholism, suicide,domestic violence amd divorce. That tells a story.

 

[Jax49]

Never heard of getting out and approaching the police vehicle when pulled over in usa, never. If i was a cop and the person i pulled over got out i would immediately think they had something they didn’t want me to see.

When was it that way? I’ve been driving since 72 and it was always stay in vehicle and wait for officer to approach your vehicle.

I've driven since the mid 60's and way back then it was suggested (NOT by LE) to get out of your car and move away from it. moo

ETA: If I remember correctly it was supposed to make the officer more comfortable, not less.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

This sort of thing is precisely why Trump's approval rating is going up and why he will be re-elected in 2020.

Why, exactly? Pray tell. His approval rating is still abysmally, embarrassingly low. It got a bump, imho, because he briefly spoke common sense about gun reform.

Oh, hey, and guess what.

I’m a registered Republican and I vote!

[emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631][emoji631]

AND I vote for candidates who support gun reform.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

So all of these oldies were there for a free concert? I imagine the oldies vote

They sure do!

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

That survey was done in 2013. I wonder if their attitudes have changed.

Yes, dramatically. [emoji106] From Sandy Hook forward.

(Links upthread and through all 6 related threads.)

 

[Elley Mae]

Bump stocks.

I asked husband about them, he is very knowledgeable about guns, he said that he can do what a bump stock allows a shooter to do w/o one. Said it has to do with knowing how to manipulate the gun after the first trigger pull and allowing the gun to go back and forth while finger is still on trigger.

This is what I meant about looking to one thing as the problem and subsequent bans of 'things' as a way of doing something/anything in reaction to tragedy.

Former ATF Director Brad Buckles parsed the bump stock issue along side the capacity issue, and also discussed the NRA and what I'm calling a "token" ban for the purpose of creating some lobbying smoke and mirrors.

Excerpt re: Vegas shooting (emphasis mine):

"His capacity to kill and injure so many people was a function of two things: bump stocks that facilitated rapid fire and and 60 and 100-round magazines that enabled sustained fire. While all of the focus has been on bump stocks — and they certainly deserve attention — those devices alone would have been close to useless if the shooter had to reload magazines after every 10-round burst.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...6288544af98_story.html?utm_term=.1d7866eb6efe

The Vegas shooter also tried to buy 1000 tracer rounds and the dealer was out of them. He did buy over 700 tracer rounds from another person. He also bought 'armor piercing bullets' illegally made by this individual. He also had 50 pounds of explosives in his car.

But, bump stocks seem to be the new vampire panic.

If bump stocks need banning because they meet the definition of "machine gun", ok by me, and the average gun owner won't lose sleep either. But they're only part of the story of Vegas.

Also, the Orlando shooter killed 49 people. The VA Tech shooter killed 32 (with 2 handguns). Without bump stocks. Those are no less heinous statistics.

 

[Lulu_la_Nantaise]

I was reading online about a visitor to the US from Auatralia. He was stopped for a traffic stop and he got out of his car to give the officer his info. He was ordered to the ground. The visitor was terrified. In Australia , as in many countries, as a show of respecf, the driver gets out and goes to the officer. That is the way it was in the US. I am not sure when that stopped.

Police are terrified that everyone has the potential to have a gun. That is why we see these crazy shootings. They can say whatever they want trying to be all macho.

The bottom line is that they are scared,

Look up the statistics for LE and alcoholism, suicide,domestic violence amd divorce. That tells a story.

BBM

This. Police do not shoot civilians at such a rate in civilised countries.

https://www.vox.com/cards/police-brutality-shootings-us/us-police-shootings-statistics

As data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development shows, the US homicide rate throughout the 2000s was more than three times the rate of Canada, four times that of the UK, and more than 10 times that of Germany.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yes. There are numerous links throughout these threads showing as much. Most gun owners support reform. Most Americans do, in fact.

ETA:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/support-soars-for-stricter-gun-control-laws-poll-finds

Support soars for stricter gun control laws, poll finds

The poll, conducted by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, found that nearly 7 in 10 adults now favor stricter gun control measures. That’s the strongest level of support since The Associated Press first asked the question five years ago. The new poll also found that nearly half of Americans do not expect elected officials to take action.

“It feels hopeless,” said 30-year-old Elizabeth Tageson-Bedwin, of Durham, North Carolina, a self-described Republican who teaches 7th grade English. “Considering recent events, gun control in this country needs to be stricter — and it can be without infringing on anyone’s rights.”

Bumpity bumpity [emoji235] [emoji195]

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Fox News poll: U.S. voters support gun control

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/25/fox-news-poll-us-voters-support-gun-control/

The majority of registered voters said it’s more important to protect citizens from gun violence than it is to protect gun rights, according to a Fox News poll published Sunday.

Bumpity bumpity [emoji235] [emoji195]

 

[Safeguard]

Yes, dramatically. [emoji106] From Sandy Hook forward.

(Links upthread and through all 6 related threads.)

Not true actually. The survey I linked was conducted AFTER Sandy Hook. ( and really common sense has NO expiration date!).

"Gun Policy & Law Enforcement survey, which drew more than 15,000 completed responses from verified law enforcement professionals. Covering a broad range of topics related to the gun control debate in our country, the survey found that the overall attitude of law enforcement is strongly anti-gun legislation and pro-gun rights, with the belief that an armed citizenry is effective in stopping crime.

"A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent)."

https://www.policeone.com/gun-legis...d-citizens-the-best-solution-to-gun-violence/

 

[Elley Mae]

I don’t think it is an accurate poll when the poll is taken following a shooting at a school (mass).

Any polling after a mass killing with whatever weapon will get biased, emotional results.

 

[Safeguard]

https://www.policeone.com/police-pr...-equipped-with-AR-15s-mounted-on-motorcycles/ Mar 26, 2018

"Cops in Ariz. city now equipped with AR-15s mounted on motorcycles." Officers in an Arizona city are catching the attention of some drivers with their new equipment"

"Pooley said sometimes a motorcop is the first LEO to arrive at the source of trouble, and will now be properly armed for any situation.

The commander said sometimes pistols aren’t enough, especially when criminals are using heavier weapons. Pooley said with the patrol rifle on full public display, the agency was prepared for potential backlash.

But Pooley said the agency has “gotten a lot of positive feedback” from the community since deploying them.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I don’t think it is an accurate poll when the poll is taken following a shooting at a school (mass).

Any polling after a mass killing with whatever weapon will get biased, emotional results.

So, by that logic, no poll will ever be accurate?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Not true actually. The survey I linked was conducted AFTER Sandy Hook. ( and really common sense has NO expiration date!).

"Gun Policy & Law Enforcement survey, which drew more than 15,000 completed responses from verified law enforcement professionals. Covering a broad range of topics related to the gun control debate in our country, the survey found that the overall attitude of law enforcement is strongly anti-gun legislation and pro-gun rights, with the belief that an armed citizenry is effective in stopping crime.

"A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent)."

https://www.policeone.com/gun-legis...d-citizens-the-best-solution-to-gun-violence/

Right.

It’s true, actually.

Check the upward trend in support for gun reform over the years since Sandy Hook.

Data doesn’t exist in a vacuum.

 

[Safeguard]

https://www.policeone.com/active-sh...Lessons-learned-and-how-threats-have-evolved/
Mar 16, 2018
sbbm
"NTOA active shooter update: Lessons learned and how threats have evolved. Analysis of 97 worldwide active shooter incidents in 2017 identifies trends to consider as we prepare to counter the active shooter threat Mar 16, 2018:

"I’ve been reporting on the National Tactical Officers Association (NTOA) “Active Shooter Update” at SHOT Show for several years now. It’s interesting to me that if you go back and read the previous reports from 2015, 2016 and 2017, you’ll see that while the active shooter problem has been a constant, the nature of the threat itself has been in a continuous state of evolution.

There’s perhaps nobody in the industry more attuned to that truth than Don Alwes, one of NTOA’s premiere instructors, and the driving force behind SHOT Show’s Law Enforcement Education Program (LEEP) Active Shooter Update each year.
Through painstaking analysis of 97 worldwide active shooter incidents in 2017, Alwes identified several trends to consider as we prepare to counter the active shooter threat:

1. Use of edged weapons
There was a marked increase in edged-weapon attacks in 2017. Edged weapons were used in 16 of the 97 attacks (16.5%) that Don analyzed, which represents a host of complications for law enforcement. Edged weapons are easy to acquire and conceal, and require little training to employ. They are devastating in close quarters, don’t run out of ammunition and don’t give off a signature sound that can be used to help fix the location of the attacker. With simple techniques, these weapons can even be smuggled with reliability past security checkpoints employing metal detectors.

2. Increased vehicle attacks
There was also a marked increase in vehicle attacks in 2017. Vehicles were used as weapons in 13 of the 97 attacks (13.5%), and once again, this has significant ramifications for law enforcement. Vehicles are a fixture in commerce and everyday life, but it’s important for law enforcement to consider tactics for vehicle exclusion in public events and in public spaces. An additional complexity in dealing with vehicles is the recent trend in many law enforcement agencies to modify use of force policies to place strict limitations on the use of deadly force against the drivers of moving vehicles. At a time when the vehicle threat seems to be increasing, officers may ironically feel less prepared than ever to adequately defend themselves and the public from a driver intent on destruction – something for police administrators to consider, before making policy changes."

"WHAT’S NOT CHANGED:
While Don was able to shine light on some new active shooter trends, the assembled group also reflected on the idea that there really is nothing new under the sun."

snip
I think the lesson here is multi-faceted:

We know what our vulnerabilities are;
The enemy does too;
We don’t know all the details, but we know that we’ll suffer attacks in the future;
We need to take advantage of the time we have to prepare for them.
OTHER LESSONS:

Don’s research on active shooter events also points to the following lessons learned that he shared with LEEP attendees:

The first few minutes are critical. Time equals lives in active shooter attacks, so an effective response must be launched immediately.
Potential victims must protect themselves. There will be an inevitable delay between the initiation of the attack and the report to police. There will be an additional delay between the notification of police, their arrival on scene and their first contact with the attacker. None of these delays work in the potential victims’ favor, so civilians must be trained and equipped (emotionally and physically) to protect themselves from attack while they wait for law enforcement assistance.
Rapid action by the first officers on scene is imperative. The clock has been running for a while before you got there. You cannot delay your response. Time is lives."

 

[Safeguard]

https://www.npr.org/2018/03/15/5938...n-perceived-danger-in-u-s-schools-and-reality

"he Parkland shooting last month has energized student activists, who are angry and frustrated over gun violence. But it's also contributed to the impression that school shootings are a growing epidemic in America.

In truth, they're not.

"Schools are safer today than they had been in previous decades," says James Alan Fox, a professor of criminology at Northeastern University who has studied the phenomenon of mass murder since the 1980s.

Fox and doctoral student Emma Fridel crunched the numbers, and the results should come as a relief to parents.

First, while multiple-victim shootings in general are on the rise, that's not the case in schools. There's an average of about one a year — in a country with more than 100,000 schools.

"There were more back in the '90s than in recent years," says Fox. "For example, in one school year — 1997-98 — there were four multiple-victim shootings in schools."

Second, the overall number of gunshot victims at schools is also down. According to Fox's numbers, back in the 1992-93 school year, about 0.55 students per million were shot and killed; in 2014-15, that rate was closer to 0.15 per million.

"The difference is the impression, the perception that people have," Fox says — and he traces that to cable news and social media. "Today we have cell phone recordings of gunfire that play over and over and over again. So it's that the impression is very different. That's why people think things are a lot worse now, but the statistics say otherwise."

Other experts agree. Garen Wintemute is an emergency room physician who leads a prominent gun violence research program at the University of California, Davis. He says school shootings, specifically, are not epidemic.

"Schools are just about the safest place in the world for kids to be," Wintemute says. "Although each one of them is horrific and rivets the entire nation for a period of time, mass shootings at schools are really very uncommon, and they are not increasing in frequency. What's changed is how aware we are of them."