Halyna Hutchins Shot With Prop Gun - Alec Baldwin indicted & Hannah Gutierrez-Reed charged, 2021 #6

[Betty P]

I think the answer to your question might lay with your observation that it is a serious matter.

Evidently, the ammunition in question might be from one of the following "flavors":

A. Packaged and marketed for movie use by a company supplying blank, dummy and perhaps live rounds.
B. Be generic ammunition purchased from a gun store, gun show or sporting goods store.

If its an "A", I imagine that only a few people other than the armorer would have been able to bring it to the set. But.... if its a "B", then a far larger number of people could have brought it to the set. There may have been multiple people.

My guess is that the investigators might be up against a Middle School Wall of Confusion if the ammunition is "B":

- Oh heck no, I never brought live ammo to the set. I did, however, target shoot with some live rounds from an open box that somebody else brought. No, no, I have no idea who that person was.

- No- I never, ever brought live ammo to the set. It was in my car- never at the set. Anyways, I shot it all during a target shoot and that was the end of it.

- Ok, I was seen with some live ammo, but I did not bring it to the set. Rather, "D" gave it to me on the set.

- "D": No, I did not bring it, I got it from a table, people were saying that it was extra and we could target shoot.

- Yes, I told people they could target shoot with extra ammunition, but I did not bring any ammunition to the set. Somebody else did.

True. Either way, they need to get busy and find out. It's their job. Otherwise, JMO, I don't take them seriously and believe they're engaged in an unprofessional "witch hunt".

 

[10ofRods]

In the 550 page document of evidence released by Santa Fe County Sheriff's department, there's plenty about why they don't know where the live ammo came from.

It starts with the FBI ruling out that the live ammo came from Seth Kenney. This was released on the same day as the probable cause document:

Santa Fe Sheriff's Office Investigation Into "Rust" Shooting | PDF

The Santa Fe Sheriff's Office has released its report into the fatal shooting by Alec Baldwin.

www.scribd.com

ABC News uploaded it in pdf form to Scribd.

ABC News Politics | Scribd (for the full ABC News document portfolio)

 

[10ofRods]

In the 550 page document of evidence released by Santa Fe County Sheriff's department, there's plenty about why they don't know where the live ammo came from.

It starts with the FBI ruling out that the live ammo came from Seth Kenney. This was released on the same day as the probable cause document:

Santa Fe Sheriff's Office Investigation Into "Rust" Shooting | PDF

The Santa Fe Sheriff's Office has released its report into the fatal shooting by Alec Baldwin.

www.scribd.com

ABC News uploaded it in pdf form to Scribd.

ABC News Politics | Scribd (for the full ABC News document portfolio)

I should mention that while it sounds daunting to read, at least 250 of those pages are of little interest (except to establish just how many guns and pieces of ammo were individually collected). The part that deals with the ammunition is scattered through the second half.

 

[steeltowngirl]

In the 550 page document of evidence released by Santa Fe County Sheriff's department, there's plenty about why they don't know where the live ammo came from.

It starts with the FBI ruling out that the live ammo came from Seth Kenney. This was released on the same day as the probable cause document:

Santa Fe Sheriff's Office Investigation Into "Rust" Shooting | PDF

The Santa Fe Sheriff's Office has released its report into the fatal shooting by Alec Baldwin.

www.scribd.com

ABC News uploaded it in pdf form to Scribd.

ABC News Politics | Scribd (for the full ABC News document portfolio)

Wow.

“It was not determined where the live rounds on the set came from,” Juan R. Rios, a spokesman with the Sheriff’s Office, said on Friday after the report was publicly released as a response to records requests by news organizations.

The Sheriff’s Office, which investigated the shooting in New Mexico for more than a year, did not make a judgment in its report on whether criminal charges should be filed. It delivered the report to the district attorney’s office last month; prosecutors previously indicated that up to four people could be charged in connection with the death of the cinematographer, Halyna Hutchins, 42.

Using an F.B.I. laboratory report, the Sheriff’s Office determined that five additional live rounds had been found in various places on the “Rust” set, including in the belt Mr. Baldwin was wearing as part of his costume.

Sheriff’s Report on ‘Rust’ Shooting Doesn’t Find Source of Live Rounds (Published 2022)

A central question in the death of the film’s cinematographer was unanswered in the report delivered to prosecutors, who previously indicated that up to four people could be charged.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Marantz4250b]

First I heard of this, it would have to be verified by Halls. If Halls won't verify it I bet they will say he doesn't remember.

Sounds made up to cover her A@#. If true, I believe we would have heard this before.

Would like to hear Hall's version.

I'm not so sure. As people have mentioned, HG-R has kept a rather respectable silence in all of this. In stark contract to AB!

 

[Cool Cats]

I'm not so sure. As people have mentioned, HG-R has kept a rather respectable silence in all of this. In stark contract to AB!

Right. Reed has kept quiet, however, her attorney does talk. But quiet or not she doesn't look good in the indictment which shows 5 real bullets laying around on her and near her on set, amongst other things.

 

[Marantz4250b]

The descriptions in the charging document are so damning, IMO. The whole set of Rust productions read like an old episode of The Three Stooges, between Halls, Reed and Baldwin's utter carelessness and negligence.
What a disaster!

So, that seems to clear up the origin of the live ammunition - at least as far as knowing where it probably did not come from. It didn't match the live ammo found at the offices of the company who supplied the dummies and blanks.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Baldwin has said repeatedly that he knows and was taught that you never, on set, point a gun at someone and shoot it.

He did exactly that.

His only defense is that he only cocked the gun but never pulled the trigger. The indictment goes into detail that the gun has to have the trigger pulled to discharge a bullet.

The indictment also states that Baldwin is on camera multiple times showing his finger on the trigger.

If a jury believes that the gun misfired through no fault of Baldwin, then he could get off.
But, if the jury believes beyond a reasonable doubt that Baldwin did pull the trigger, then he is in jeopardy of being found guilty.

He flat out admits that he knew better than to do what he did. I don't see a way out of that.

2 Cents

I'm not too sure of that and if I were in his position it wouldn't alleviate my fears of spending many years in prison. The charge sheet makes it clear that you have to contravene multiple points of the rules of safe gun-handling for someone to get shot. Even if it was an unintentional discharge due to some fault on the gun (which it wasn't and the FBI confirms that), it still should not have been pointing at anyone.

You are correct, I think. I can't see any way out of this situation for him. As the charge sheet makes clear, and is plainly obvious to anyone who's followed this, he's been making his mouth go almost constantly since this happened. He made it quite plain to the police that he is fully conversant with the rules of safe gun-handling yet has seemingly ignored all of them.

 

[Marantz4250b]

In the middle of page 4 of the Statement of Probable Cause it says:

"shooting were indeed ‘live’ rounds, each possessing an unfired primer, powder, and bullets as part of the cartridge. These five rounds were found by detectives crime scene technicians) while processing the scene. The five (5) unfired rounds were found in the following locations: One (1) from SFSO Lt. Benavidez” patrol vehicle(that he had seized from REED upon his arrival) two (2) from the top of the ‘armorer’s’ cart (including the one [1] spent live roundcasing), one (1) from a bandolier on the cart, one (1) from BALDWIN'S holster located inside the church, one (1) from an ammunition box located on the armorer's cart, Along with the casing and fired projectile, there were a total of six (6) 45 “live” rounds that were discovered in various locations on the RUST set."

So were the 6 live rounds be found on set, one of which was seized on Reed's person by LE, explained by Reed?

Given that there were apparently six live rounds I'm wondering whether one of those revolvers turned up to the scene loaded, perhaps several days before, and was subsequently unloaded and the live rounds got mixed with the dummies?

 

[Marantz4250b]

She had live rounds in several locations. How is it the state investigators still dont know where the live rounds came from? Who brought them onto the set? In most normal criminal investigations, LE would be trying to answer that question, because whoever brought them onto the set committed a serious crime.

The jury is probably going to want an answer.

I can't see that it's relevant to the jury, or the case against anyone, where the live rounds actually came from. The safety procedures are designed to keep people safe from live rounds. It must always be assumed that there are live rounds present in the vicinity or in the gun until the opposite is proven.

AB, and others, did not employ the accepted procedures for checking for live rounds - and then he pointed a gun at someone and killed them with it!

 

[Marantz4250b]

In regards to the live round, evidently some members of the set were, well, screwing around via target shooting with live ammunition during down time.

Unless some of the actors or set crew brought personally owned weapons to the set (huge "No!" from what an industry insider told me), they were using set weapons for the target practice (another huge "No!").

The round could well be related to the extracurricular target shooting. Or, it could have been intended to be used on the set. The industry insider I spoke to said that live ammunition is used...."more than a little, but less than alot" on sets.

These are all good points. I would bet that on a set like this, in a place like the (the desert), live rounds would be a bit more common than most people might realise. The firearms expert who has been linked to on here (Steve Wolf, I think he's called) made the point that NM is an open carry state so it would not be uncommon for people to be carrying their own persona guns.

As an aside; back in the Golden Era of Hollywood - up until the mid-1960's I guess - filming with guns using live ammunition was very common. James Cagney came very close to being shot on a couple of occasions and I think eventually flat out refused to any use of live ammo. In one of his films (The Public Enemy, I think) there is a scene where a wall close to where he was walking is shot up with machine-gun fire. That was done using a real Thompson sub-machinegun using real .45ACP ammunition. Could you imagine the heart failure instigated in a raft of studio executives if some director suggested that they were going to loose-off a machine-gun with real ammo three feet behind Tom Cruise on a film set today? Let alone the reaction of the insurance company!!!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Right. Reed has kept quiet, however, her attorney does talk. But quiet or not she doesn't look good in the indictment which shows 5 real bullets laying around on her and near her on set, amongst other things.

I do agree. However, there isn't, as far as we have seen thus far, any real evidence that she actually brought that ammo onto the set. Yes, she was in possession of one round but that doesn't prove that she knew what it was or that she brought it with her.

Now, that leads to other questions as to whether or not she should have checked more closely, but it's not evidence that she supplied them, knowingly or otherwise. I've not seen her second police interview yet but I don't think she's claimed to have got ammunition from anywhere other than the company which supplied the dummies/blanks. We know that the live ammo on the set did not match the live ammo recovered from the company's premises so if she supplied it then she got it somewhere else. She has never claimed to have acquired any ammo from elsewhere. Indeed, why would she have got six "dummy" rounds from elsewhere?

If they didn't come from the supplying company and she didn't bring them then where did they come from? I think that someone was using one of those guns for live shooting at some point - perhaps the movie production even started - and left six rounds in it which were subsequently unloaded by someone who thought they were dummies and simply got mixed in with the rest. That would explain why they were found in multiple locations.

 

[Cryptic]

If they didn't come from the supplying company and she didn't bring them then where did they come from? I think that someone was using one of those guns for live shooting at some point - perhaps the movie production even started - and left six rounds in it which were subsequently unloaded by someone who thought they were dummies and simply got mixed in with the rest. That would explain why they were found in multiple locations.

I think this is a great use of "Occam's razor" to identify the most likely cause.

No conspiracies, no factory mix ups. Rather, as you stated: Somebody either target shooting or say, "test firing"- wink, nod off set. They could have been using their own cowboy style gun, or set guns (test firing excuse).

The live rounds are then later "ingested" by the set as dummies. The live rounds then "go viral" and spread everywhere. One winds up in a bandolier. Another one winds up in a set weapon.

 

[Cryptic]

That was done using a real Thompson sub-machinegun using real .45ACP ammunition. Could you imagine the heart failure instigated in a raft of studio executives if some director suggested that they were going to loose-off a machine-gun with real ammo three feet behind Tom Cruise on a film set today? Let alone the reaction of the insurance company!!!

I think those days are long gone as well.

As a side note, the industry insider that I spoke to (camera crewman, including with Saving Private Ryan) said that to prevent "viral spread" of live rounds, the use of live ammunition is always:

One round loaded, fired. One empty cartridge collected. One round loaded, fired. One empty cartridge collected.....

So, a short machine gun scene using live ammunition on Saving Private Ryan was going to take a very long time to shoot (camera wise and machine gun wise).

He also said that well run sets will not allow weapons with dummys or blanks to be pointed at people. Rather, the weapon must be changed out and either a rubber gun or high end airsoft must be used for that scene.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think this is a great use of "Occam's razor" to identify the most likely cause.

No conspiracies, no factory mix ups. Rather, as you stated: Somebody either target shooting or say, "test firing"- wink, nod off set. They could have been using their own cowboy style gun, or set guns (test firing excuse).

The live rounds are then later "ingested" by the set as dummies. The live rounds then "go viral" and spread everywhere. One winds up in a bandolier. Another one winds up in a set weapon.

Thanks. Honestly, I can't see any other explanation as to how they got to the set and then became spread around it. The only other possible way would be for someone to have been maliciously distributing live rounds around the place and that, quite frankly, doesn't bear thinking about!

 

[PrairieWind]

Thanks. Honestly, I can't see any other explanation as to how they got to the set and then became spread around it. The only other possible way would be for someone to have been maliciously distributing live rounds around the place and that, quite frankly, doesn't bear thinking about!

I think the question of where the rounds came from is going to be very important. The defenses, especially AB's defense, may well argue it is possible that the rounds were introduced intentionally.

 

[Zella]

The defenses, especially AB's defense, may well argue it is possible that the rounds were introduced intentionally.

At various times, he's already espoused the idea that the shooting ties in with the safety strike going on, so it wouldn't surprise me if this is exactly what they do. MOO

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think the question of where the rounds came from is going to be very important. The defenses, especially AB's defense, may well argue it is possible that the rounds were introduced intentionally.

I can't see that it matters. Whether they got there through the carelessness of the armourer or the ammo supply company, or were introduced maliciously, it still doesn't excuse AB's negligence in shooting two people. Those people would not have been shot had he not ignored multiple points in the rules of safe gun-handling.

The whole point of those rules is that you should always assume that a gun is loaded with live ammo until you have personally proved otherwise. And, even then, don't point it at anyone.

 

[10ofRods]

Wow.

“It was not determined where the live rounds on the set came from,” Juan R. Rios, a spokesman with the Sheriff’s Office, said on Friday after the report was publicly released as a response to records requests by news organizations.

The Sheriff’s Office, which investigated the shooting in New Mexico for more than a year, did not make a judgment in its report on whether criminal charges should be filed. It delivered the report to the district attorney’s office last month; prosecutors previously indicated that up to four people could be charged in connection with the death of the cinematographer, Halyna Hutchins, 42.

Using an F.B.I. laboratory report, the Sheriff’s Office determined that five additional live rounds had been found in various places on the “Rust” set, including in the belt Mr. Baldwin was wearing as part of his costume.

Sheriff’s Report on ‘Rust’ Shooting Doesn’t Find Source of Live Rounds (Published 2022)

A central question in the death of the film’s cinematographer was unanswered in the report delivered to prosecutors, who previously indicated that up to four people could be charged.

www.nytimes.com

Yes. Alec had a LIVE ROUND on his ammo belt! And there were 2 live rounds on the bandolier that was on the cart (presumably to be worn by one of the bad guys in the last shoot-out scene). None of the live rounds matched anything ever sold by Seth Kenney - so it did not come in through the props department. (This is all in the document linked above - around about page 250 or so).

It really is amazing to think that more killings could have taken place had they gone onward and any of the actors had decided to load their gun from their belt/bandolier (surely they wouldn't have???)

It's amazing that somehow, though, one live round was right on Alec's person. I'm sure the defense will make something of this, as they attempt to either plea bargain or get him off at trial.

IMO.

 

[Betty P]

Yes. Alec had a LIVE ROUND on his ammo belt! And there were 2 live rounds on the bandolier that was on the cart (presumably to be worn by one of the bad guys in the last shoot-out scene). None of the live rounds matched anything ever sold by Seth Kenney - so it did not come in through the props department. (This is all in the document linked above - around about page 250 or so).

It really is amazing to think that more killings could have taken place had they gone onward and any of the actors had decided to load their gun from their belt/bandolier (surely they wouldn't have???)

It's amazing that somehow, though, one live round was right on Alec's person. I'm sure the defense will make something of this, as they attempt to either plea bargain or get him off at trial.

IMO.

Its not too surprising for one to be on his ammo belt if live rounds were also found on a bandolier on the cart. Presumably, the bandolier was to be used by another actor. The evidence so far points to the armourer, the person who loaded the cartridges into the guns, ammo belts and bandoliers. Unless they can find evidence of some mysterious assassin putting those live rounds into various props, it looks like Hanna is guilty.