Halyna Hutchins Shot With Prop Gun - Alec Baldwin indicted & Hannah Gutierrez-Reed charged, 2021 #6

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It may depend on the dummy ones in question. In the military, inert or "dummy" ammunition has very distinct color markings.

But....movies strive for realism. It possible that the dummy rounds produced by prop companies have more subtle markings to show that they are dummy and not live.

These possibly more subtle markings could then be over looked by somebody in a hurry- or by somebody operating with the presumption that they must be dummy rounds because that is what they are supposed to be- right?
From what HGR has said, they use at leaset three types of dummy round; one without a primer; one with a hole drilled in the side and one which is externally indistinguishable from real ammo but has a steel ball inside which rattles.
 

Um....he wants to choose his own prosecutor? One whose political beliefs align with his own?

What arrogance. You get to choose your defense attorney, not your prosecutor.

Jmo
Stuff like this just smacks of desperation, in my view. This has been an investigation taking well over a year which seems to have been undertaken in a fairly through manner. Having read through the Probable Cause document it seemed fairly rationally argued, to me, without seeming political. Besides, it's a judge which gets to decide whether there is actually probable cause enough to go to trial, not the prosecutor.

Having said that, there are reasonable arguments for keeping law making separate from the administration and enforcement of the law.
 
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Actually, from industry standards, it was the armourer who was supposed to check the weapon in front of the actor before giving it to him/her. But, yeah, we already know Hannah ignored a lot of those rules. She was the only one who was supposed to handle those weapons and ammo.

HGR (or attorney) state that The Armorer was not on set -- because of COVID protocols.

So the on-set Assistant Director (who accepted a plea deal already iirc) could not find a less essential person to send off the set instead?

I still cannot picture the 24 year old HGR stating "Sorry, Employers Assistant Director and Producer/Big Name Actor, no safety training for Actor, no weapons; no Armorer present, no weapons."

IF AB had responded differently to training and IF The Armorer had been present on set -- would 3 people be charged -- or only one?

jmho and all that.

Wonder how long before either trial starts?

Really good breakfast burritos in a building right by the Federal Courthouse if anyone manages to attend.

Parking is difficult. ( I'd park at church & walk over, but I have that option :cool: )

The metal detectors are set carefully, you can't take much in.

Might have to plan a trip out to provide some on-site reporting here....

Made myself hungry, there's a Lotaburger a couple blocks the other direction.
 
Because on a movie set, the rules of handling a firearm are different. He is supposed to be able to rely on the armorer and the director. You don't want individual actors messing with the gun. Sure, he shouldn't have pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger. But he was reasonably relying on being told it was not loaded. That should alleviate him of any criminal intent.

It's important to remember that "intent" is not an element of this crime. In fact, the charge itself assumes he killed without INTENDING to do so ... but that he is criminally reckless and negligent in his actions (failing to take proper supervisory care, aiming a gun at a person and then pulling the trigger resulting in her death, and ignoring and not utilizing the safety standards put in place to prevent injury and death by gunshot).

The state certainly has to prove he is guilty of some of that. But presence or absence of his intent to kill is not part of what they have to prove.
 
From what HGR has said, they use at leaset three types of dummy round; one without a primer; one with a hole drilled in the side and one which is externally indistinguishable from real ammo but has a steel ball inside which rattles.
It looks like the differences are pretty subtle and easy to over look for all three variants:

A - Probably a small hole drilled in the side to take the main powder charge out of one variant.

B- Missing primer area on other other one. This version seems down right scary as it sounds like it has a full powder charge (no hole in the cartridge), but just lacks the primer.

C. Externally the same as a live round- but you need to shake the round and listen for the ball to know for sure its a dummy.

Wow, now I know why well run sets do not allow guns with dummy rounds to be pointed at people.
 
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It's important to remember that "intent" is not an element of this crime. In fact, the charge itself assumes he killed without INTENDING to do so ... but that he is criminally reckless and negligent in his actions (failing to take proper supervisory care, aiming a gun at a person and then pulling the trigger resulting in her death, and ignoring and not utilizing the safety standards put in place to prevent injury and death by gunshot).

The state certainly has to prove he is guilty of some of that. But presence or absence of his intent to kill is not part of what they have to prove.
No, malice is not an element. Intent is an element in all crimes. It may not be a specific intent, but an intent to the act. I think this is where the prosecutor is going come up short. I think the charges against AB ultimately will be amended or dismissed.
 
It looks like the differences are pretty subtle and easy to over look for all three variants:

A - Probably a small hole drilled in the side to take the main powder charge out of one variant.

B- Missing primer area on other other one. This version seems down right scary as it sounds like it has a full powder charge (no hole in the cartridge), but just lacks the primer.

C. Externally the same as a live round- but you need to shake the round and listen for the ball to know for sure its a dummy.

Wow, now I know why well run sets do not allow guns with dummy rounds to be pointed at people.
Not having a primer would really be the best way in my opinion. It would serve the same purpose as A. And it would be immediately visible if it was loaded in a chamber. Plus, if there is no primer, there really couldn't be any powder either.
 
Because on a movie set, the rules of handling a firearm are different. He is supposed to be able to rely on the armorer and the director. You don't want individual actors messing with the gun. Sure, he shouldn't have pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger. But he was reasonably relying on being told it was not loaded. That should alleviate him of any criminal intent.
Why is it a problem for an actor to check a gun to see if it's loaded? It's not hard to do and takes only a small amount of time.

During a rehearsal the gun shouldn't be loaded with anything. Better yet a rubber gun should have been used instead of a real firearm. JMO.
 
Why is it a problem for an actor to check a gun to see if it's loaded? It's not hard to do and takes only a small amount of time.

During a rehearsal the gun shouldn't be loaded with anything. Better yet a rubber gun should have been used instead of a real firearm. JMO.
Well, let me start by saying that my opinion on this is based on what I have read/heard from other armorers and directors since this tragedy. And what I have learned, from hearing the people discuss the industry standard, is that there may not really be an industry standard. Because they all seem to say something different. But one thing I did hear often was that many actors don't have much or any experience with firearms. Because of this, when actors are handed firearms on a set, they are not to do anything with it other than what they are directed. This is to ensure the firearm remains in the same condition that the armorer wanted it in, and prevent any mistake or tampering. To really check a firearm, you need to unload it. So if this was the practice on this set, when handed the gun and told it was "cold" AB not only can rely on that, he must rely on it. Now, that certainly isn't the way firearms are handled in the "real world" but a movie set has different rules. That at least is the argument I would make for AB.
 
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Well, let me start by saying that my opinion on this is based on what I have read/heard from other armorers and directors since this tragedy. And what I have learned, from hearing the people discuss the industry standard, is that there may not really be an industry standard. Because they all seem to say something different. But what thing I did hear often was that many actors don't have much or any experience with firearms. Because of this, when actors are handed firearms on a set, they are not to do anything with it other than what they are directed. This is to ensure the firearm remains in the same condition that the armorer wanted it in, and prevent any mistake or tampering. To really check a firearm, you need to unload it. So if this was the practice on this set, when handed the gun and told it was "cold" AB not only can rely on that, he must rely on it. Now, that certainly isn't the way firearms are handled in the "real world" but a movie set has different rules. That at least is the argument I would make for AB.
If the actor checks the gun themselves by unloading it how could they cause it to become dangerous? The only way that I could see that happening is if the actor reloads the gun with different and live ammunition without anyone else noticing.

I just don't see that happening. IMO more safety checks is better than less. Relying on someone else to claim the gun is "cold" led to this tragic death and injury. JMO.
 
If the actor checks the gun themselves by unloading it how could they cause it to become dangerous? The only way that I could see that happening is if the actor reloads the gun with different and live ammunition without anyone else noticing.

I just don't see that happening. IMO more safety checks is better than less. Relying on someone else to claim the gun is "cold" led to this tragic death and injury. JMO.
I think it just about the armorer being in control. He/she knows what is going on with each weapon.
I would agree with you that the more safety checks, the better. The system failed in this case. From what I have learned after this tragedy, I really don't think they should be using real firearms on a set at all.
 
Not having a primer would really be the best way in my opinion. It would serve the same purpose as A. And it would be immediately visible if it was loaded in a chamber. Plus, if there is no primer, there really couldn't be any powder either.
Thanks for the good information. I agree. As is shown, no primer means no primer and no main charge.

Unless.... a fake primer is used to make the round look real from the rear? But.... I think when realism from rear is wanted (visible primer), the other methods are used.
 
So if this was the practice on this set, when handed the gun and told it was "cold" AB not only can rely on that, he must rely on it. Now, that certainly isn't the way firearms are handled in the "real world" but a movie set has different rules. That at least is the argument I would make for AB.
That could well be so. The camera crewman that I spoke to who described very comprehensive safety rules:

- Guns checked by armorer- then rechecked by actor or "shooting partner". Rubber guns are still weapons.
- Actors being issued a rubber gun, hi end airsoft gun, blank / live / dummy gun (guns were never used for two purposes)
- Guns being marked with camera invisible markings as to the type.

- Only rubber and airsoft guns could be pointed at people.
- If a "black gun(s)" was issued (live ammunition), the whole set knew it.
- Live ammunition used via: One round loaded. One round fired. One spent cartridge collected. - repeat... .

- Safety tables (Actor unsure about weapon? Places it on the table and it is re- re checked).
- Additional armorer hired solely to prep and tend to German pistols with quirky and contradictory safety features.

Was.... mostly talking to me about his work on Saving Private Ryan and other high budget films. He related that Steven Speillburg was meticulous even by high budget standards (brought in special armorer just for German WWII pistols).
 
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Saving Private Ryan and other high budget films. He related that Steven Speillburg was meticulous even by high budget standards (brought in special armorer just for German WWII pistols).
Speillburg?? o_O
 
From what HGR has said, they use at leaset three types of dummy round; one without a primer; one with a hole drilled in the side and one which is externally indistinguishable from real ammo but has a steel ball inside which rattles.
All dummies have no primer. There are two main ways of marking them: a hole drilled in the side OR a BB inside that rattles. Also

There are three types of ammo that could have gone in the revolver:

Live ammo (we all know what that is)

Blanks (half or quarter charge of gunpowder/primer; contains no projectile but can emit gasses - makes a bang and emits smoke; the place where the bullet would have gone is crimped - very hard to confuse for live ammo)

Dummies (no primer/gunpowder; has a dimple where the primer would have gone; contains no projectile; most common in use; makes no bang and emits no smoke; not crimped).

(not a news source, just a little tutorial on ammo)

Dummies can be further subdivided into fake looking ones (plastic, purple, etc) and ones that are cosmetically identical from the outside of the gun to live ammo or blanks.

So she needed to deal with three types.

Dummies have a cosmetic top that resembles a bullet, but it is not actually a slug, it's usually plastic.

I listened to Hannah trying to explain some of her work on a podcast (Voices of the American West) and found her confusing.
 
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