Hannah Graham: The Search - #3

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Zuri

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Have they begun to cut hay yet in Virginia? In Pennsylvania, they are starting their second cut. Many horse farm owners grow and cut their own hay.

Thanks to all of you who are making all these suggestions of where to look. To me, it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and I would have no idea where to search. I do hope she is found soon.
 

part time prof

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I think the best way to get to Earlysville, at least to the entrance to Panorama Farm (the recent Earlysville search location), would be Barracks Road to Georgetown (right past JM's residence) to Hydraulic Road to Earlysville Road (turning left at the Rock Store). Then, at the reservoir, turning left onto Woodlands Road (instead of staying on Earlysville Road), right past the place where people unload boats to fish the reservoir (or fish from the bridge) for 2.6 miles to a right on Reas Ford Road, and then turning right on Reas Ford Lane. Staying on Earlysville Road instead of Woodlands, while indeed the back route to the airport, would add time to the drive to Panorama Farm. While Hydraulic Road from Georgetown to the Rock Store is four lane, that segment is only about 1 mile and in my experience while there is occasionally a police presence there, it's not that common, and they're looking for people going faster than the posted 35 mph (and most do it anyway).
 

MJPeony

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He walked 1.3 miles to the end of the field where Morgan Harrington was found.

Are we sure he walked that? I seem to recall that no one quite could figure out exactly how he got to that place... perhaps he drove part-way, went through the gate (wasn't it determined it was open?) Forgive me, I'm totally not remembering the details of this part of that case although I did follow it at the time.

I guess it matters only in that it would help understanding his past manner of getting rid of the body- is he really willing to drag/carry someone 1.3 miles? That would open up a whole new can of worms in terms of potential terrain. (I know there was talk a while back about whether he'd risk getting cut by branches in deep woods, etc. But I'm talking here just about how far he's willing to traverse with a body)
 

ILOKAL

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having lived in cville/schulyer and scottsville area for over 28 years, i will attest to the fact that there is just soooo much land to search and so many back roads that are not "marked" on maps but they are def there...

Since you and Appalachiagirl are locals, I will pose this question to both of you. I have mentioned edit previously but didin't seem to get a response. Last week a WS poster mentioned that JLM had posted to his FB a comment about spotsylvaniagreenways.com. I don't recall what JLM's comment was but it was pasted from his FB to this forum. I am not familiar with the area as I've only visited Virginia once, so I turn to those who are familiar with the various areas. I AM curious if we should pay attention to the fact that Jesse commented about the area? I say yes because to me it says he is either familiar with the area or has an interest in it for some reason. From what I have read here, he has always been the outdoorsy type. So I went to this site (I suggest all posters do the same) and found that it has several areas (Salamander Loop, and other trails) that have easy access and dense woods with walking trails throughout which might be the very the of area he chose. I believe the area is about 60 miles from Charlottesville and is in Frederericksburg. Guided tours of Salamander Loop are given the second Sunday of each month. Volunteers give the tours. There is a form to fill out to become a volunteer. They attend classes and then become qualified masters. Who knows, JLM might even BE a volunteer there. It just seems like an area that Jesse would have been interested in long before September 13th. If, for example, JLM didn't pre-plan his attacks he probably didn't pre-select a site, but when the time came that he needed a location, this area might have popped into his mind. There are creek beds and the Ni River Trail as well as Salamander Loop (and others).

As a local, do you feel this area would be a feasible place for LE to search. And though we have no way of knowing how JLM thinks, he "might" think leaving a body in an area that is open to the public would take any focus off of him "specifically", thinking a defense could be it could have been anyone who accessed the area.
 

Appalachiagirl

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Have they begun to cut hay yet in Virginia? In Pennsylvania, they are starting their second cut. Many horse farm owners grow and cut their own hay.

Thanks to all of you who are making all these suggestions of where to look. To me, it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack and I would have no idea where to search. I do hope she is found soon.
We are getting a late start to our second cut because of a very wet spring. Our hay hasn't gone to seed yet but if it's not bush hogged by the end of October, it will be useless.
Other farmers I know probably won't bush hog until November.
BTW, we normally cut in April and around the end of August.

Edited to add: bush hogging the fields still might not yield anything. Last year, my hand ran over 2 baby deer that were bedded in the field and we didn't realize it until the baler came through a week later. And not all cut hay is bailed. Fence and tree lines, for example. We will cut it but the big baler can't make an even line to bail it. I hope this makes sense.
 

wendle83

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IMO This could very well end up being a case such as Morgan Harrington's where her remains were accidentally found. Unless JM confesses or tells where she can be found, there are just so many places that a missing person can be in the Cville and surrounding area. So sad for her family.
 

MJPeony

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.....As a local, do you feel this area would be a feasible place for LE to search. And though we have no way of knowing how JLM thinks, he "might" think leaving a body in an area that is open to the public would take any focus off of him "specifically", thinking a defense could be it could have been anyone who accessed the area.

(snipped for brevity)

I personally strongly don't believe that JM would have placed her body anywhere that would be a potential sighting area by the general public. HG case is post-MH. He knows there was forensic evidence collected in the MH case, that was connected to Fairfax. He's not going to risk HG being found this time. IMO. It's going to be somewhere on private property, or merely off-the-beaten-path somewhere. Of course, JMO.
 

jamicat

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If I were JM, somewhat drunk, driving around in my sketchy car in the middle of the night with a body or kidnap victim, there is NO way I would drive east or north out of cville proper. Way too populated. I would definitely be driving south or west.
But this is VA. Trespassing on peoples' private farms is a serious crime. Especially livestock farms. If I saw someone trespassing on my posted private property, my livestock farm, I could legally shoot them dead. Cville is pretty urban but as soon as you leave the city, it is the rural south. One doesn't just simply traipse around some random farm. I know this. Most everyone from this area knows this. There are some scary rednecks around here. JM would know this too. And even the larger farms have cameras, farmhands patrolling the property or even camping in the fields (coyotes are bad this year), locked gates, etc.
This is why I think he had a predetermined place where he knew, without a doubt, he would not be seen.
This is all just my opinion, of course.

He probably knew of several likely places since he so knew the areas. He'd know where he had better not take the chance.

I really don't see how he'd want to go that far either without stopping. Hannah would not have had far to go to be back in her part of town. She'd notice pretty quickly that he wasn't going there, even though not in optimum shape,....unless
she was drugged. Think about it. She is a very smart girl. She wants to get back to the Corner which isn't even 3 miles away, minutes by car. I really doubt she agreed to more than a ride home, probably a reason why she took the chance, it wasn't far at all. So it wouldn't take any time, not even 10 minutes before she would likely notice that something was wrong. Again, unless she was doped heavily, and that's where the report of that girl at Tempos who saw her concerns me.

The car does not have much room for an assault. Driving and fighting off a woman in the city right after last call would be risky, and Hannah could have jumped out of the car if she felt threatened. She had to have been compromised mentally and physically big tim to just sit there while he drove a distance.

So my guess is that she is really near Charlottesville on private property that is not well patrolled. LE can't search there and if it's neglected, maybe absentte of owner property, the owner isn't even going to bother. JM would know that public property would be searched to the inch with dogs.

If LE knows if the car had a cadaver in it or not, that could make a difference. If not, Hannah likely is very near the city. If so. if those dogs indicate a cadaverhit, and if JM has a lot of a unaccounted for time missing after this, I'm afraid she's way far away.

That LE wants to keep the search radius at 8 miles, makes me believe that Hannah left the car alive. I would really focus on privately owned property that isn't being carefully monitored and would be easy access.
 

Appalachiagirl

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Are we sure he walked that? I seem to recall that no one quite could figure out exactly how he got to that place... perhaps he drove part-way, went through the gate (wasn't it determined it was open?) Forgive me, I'm totally not remembering the details of this part of that case although I did follow it at the time.

I guess it matters only in that it would help understanding his past manner of getting rid of the body- is he really willing to drag/carry someone 1.3 miles? That would open up a whole new can of worms in terms of potential terrain. (I know there was talk a while back about whether he'd risk getting cut by branches in deep woods, etc. But I'm talking here just about how far he's willing to traverse with a body)

I know he didn't have a body neatly packed up in a Kelty backpack(at least I hope not), but I can carry a third of my body weight over rough terrain for many miles with ease. If I was determined and fueled by adrenaline, alcohol and serial killer rage, I could probably drag a body a few miles. I am a petite woman too, so IMO, JM could easily walk many miles with a 130lb body over his shoulder.
 

Zuri

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The most immediate important thing right now is this search for Hannah. It's going to be over soon, and without her, it may be an uphill battle to keep JM locked up. The other important thing about this case is for a danger perp to be locked up so he does harm others. JM is clearly a loose cannon, a danger to himself and others. Whether he killed Hannah or not, he's not giving up one bit of info to find her. he's hurting a lot of people in the time and resources this search is taking.

However, the reality is that unless there is a ton of very good evidence that LE has and isn't sharing with us, there isn't that great of a case against him. So what that Hannah got into his car? So what he isn't talking? Those things don't count much if anything in terms of the court verdict, and it's something all of us should have clear. These searches are highly emotional for all involved, even those of us sitting a distance away, and it's easy to get "Tunnel Vision" as Longo has warned and we think we have the case is clear, when maybe it isn't

So often entries are not so much of a defense of the guy, but clear rendition of the facts.

It's very difficult on an emotional level for me to understand, and I truly don't emotionally, as to how JM could just sit there and let people search for Hannah when he probably knows well where she is exactly. But a lot is at stake for him, and if he hid her, the very purpose was so that she would NOT be found, so why should he say a word? The reality is that he could walk on this case, as much as most of us would hate to see this, if the search is not successful. So of course he is not going to help. IMO, the best way to have gotten any info out of this guy would have been to appeal to his ego, and have sweet talked him in the beginning. If LE did not do this with someone very good, they lost their chance. Someone getting his car snatched in the middle of the night like that, is going to be very sore and suspicious of LE and not be cooperative, though by this time, would understand the immensity of all of this and help out with all info, if indeed innocent.

In truth, I am worried about this too. Hopefully they are working on the connection to Morgan so they can have something concrete to charge him with. I really hope they find her soon. Praying actually.
 

Appalachiagirl

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Since you and Appalachiagirl are locals, I will pose this question to both of you. I have mentioned edit previously but didin't seem to get a response. Last week a WS poster mentioned that JLM had posted to his FB a comment about spotsylvaniagreenways.com. I don't recall what JLM's comment was but it was pasted from his FB to this forum. I am not familiar with the area as I've only visited Virginia once, so I turn to those who are familiar with the various areas. I AM curious if we should pay attention to the fact that Jesse commented about the area? I say yes because to me it says he is either familiar with the area or has an interest in it for some reason. From what I have read here, he has always been the outdoorsy type. So I went to this site (I suggest all posters do the same) and found that it has several areas (Salamander Loop, and other trails) that have easy access and dense woods with walking trails throughout which might be the very the of area he chose. I believe the area is about 60 miles from Charlottesville and is in Frederericksburg. Guided tours of Salamander Loop are given the second Sunday of each month. Volunteers give the tours. There is a form to fill out to become a volunteer. They attend classes and then become qualified masters. Who knows, JLM might even BE a volunteer there. It just seems like an area that Jesse would have been interested in long before September 13th. If, for example, JLM didn't pre-plan his attacks he probably didn't pre-select a site, but when the time came that he needed a location, this area might have popped into his mind. There are creek beds and the Ni River Trail as well as Salamander Loop (and others).

As a local, do you feel this area would be a feasible place for LE to search. And though we have no way of knowing how JLM thinks, he "might" think leaving a body in an area that is open to the public would take any focus off of him "specifically", thinking a defense could be it could have been anyone who accessed the area.
I am not familiar with that area. I am strictly a mountain girl: )
 

Nosy

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Nosy, you're thinking of Skyline Drive, which runs through Shenandoah National Park. The Blue Ridge Parkway begins at the southern end of the park and ends at the entry to Great Smokey Mnts. National Park, a distance of 469 miles. There are no booths at the northern entrance to the Blue Ridge Parkway.

I did think they were the same. Thanks. So it looks like you can get on either around Afton Va which is about 30 min outside cville taking the 250 bypass which is possible. That would definitely be a needle in a haystack!
 

Mercedes

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I am new here so I hope I am doing this right.
This may be a long shot, but ... JM put Morgan's body on a farm where he knew the owner's were out of town. Is it possible then that he hid Hannah's body somewhere on property owned by a long-term patient in the hospital? Even if he did not have time that night, he could have moved it there later that week.
 

Bryan9

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spotsylvaniagreenways.com. ... I don't recall what JLM's comment was but it was pasted from his FB to this forum. I am not familiar with the area as I've only visited Virginia once, so I turn to those who are familiar with the various areas. As a local, do you feel this area would be a feasible place for LE to search. And though we have no way of knowing how JLM thinks, he "might" think leaving a body in an area that is open to the public would take any focus off of him "specifically", thinking a defense could be it could have been anyone who accessed the area.

I'm local too... of course it ought to be searched, since he mentioned it on FB... but I doubt that the perp would drive all that way with an unconscious, wounded, or dead passenger aboard, given that he'd have to traverse busy, four-lane roads in a car with questionable registration/inspections. Consider, too, a couple of things that I hate to mention... but... first, he would have wanted to spend some time with his victim on-site but still get back to Cville to get some sleep... and second, serial killers are known to revisit the disposal sites... I can't find the source now, but I recall reading that LE thought that the killer had revisited the MH site... he'd be reluctant, I believe, to dispose of his victim that far away. Ugh, writing this is making me sick.
 

Appalachiagirl

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I am new here so I hope I am doing this right.
This may be a long shot, but ... JM put Morgan's body on a farm where he knew the owner's were out of town. Is it possible then that he hid Hannah's body somewhere on property owned by a long-term patient in the hospital? Even if he did not have time that night, he could have moved it there later that week.
^this! I have a hard time believing JM, who grew up around here, would just waltz right onto private property unless he KNEW the owners/hands wouldn't see him. other farmers look out for each other too. I have gotten called by neighboring farms because they noticed things I didn't. And if I were to be away for an extended period of time, they would be looking out for my property.
 

MJPeony

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I'm local too... of course it ought to be searched, since he mentioned it on FB... but I doubt that the perp would drive all that way with an unconscious, wounded, or dead passenger aboard, given that he'd have to traverse busy, four-lane roads in a car with questionable registration/inspections. Consider, too, a couple of things that I hate to mention... but... first, he would have wanted to spend some time with his victim on-site but still get back to Cville to get some sleep... and second, serial killers are known to revisit the disposal sites... I can't find the source now, but I recall reading that LE thought that the killer had revisited the MH site... he'd be reluctant, I believe, to dispose of his victim that far away. Ugh, writing this is making me sick.

BBM. I don't have the quote either right now, but I'm in the camp that LE was not trying to say they thought he revisited the sight after MH was placed there. But that LE was saying (before they actually located MH), that the place they thought they'd find her was somewhere the perp may have been to and was comfortable with, so that it would have been a place the perp re-visted in a time of stress (i.e the time of stress being when he got rid of a body). JMO.
 

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That's his sister's car - the one he took to Texas and which apparently LE confirms Hannah was NOT in.

He was driving his orange car when he left the mall area, presumably with Hannah.

According to where MH was found, apparently obstacles are no problem either - there were reports of "the only way" he could have gotten there was to cross a creek, cross barbed wire fences, etc. I'll look for that article and edit.

EDIT: URL - Google will provide many more. http://www.readthehook.com/68819/trail-harringtons-body-creates-new-mysteries-angles
 

Pacific2011

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Does JM use a debit/credit card to buy gas and other items at a gas station or convenience store? If so, can LE look at his accounts to find out not only if/where he made purchases on September 13/14 but also about some trips he might have made if he'd been traveling around in the months before HG disappeared scouting out a place to hide his next victim.

Just a thought. . . .
 

Paulap

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Since you and Appalachiagirl are locals, I will pose this question to both of you. I have mentioned edit previously but didin't seem to get a response. Last week a WS poster mentioned that JLM had posted to his FB a comment about spotsylvaniagreenways.com. I don't recall what JLM's comment was but it was pasted from his FB to this forum. I am not familiar with the area as I've only visited Virginia once, so I turn to those who are familiar with the various areas. I AM curious if we should pay attention to the fact that Jesse commented about the area? I say yes because to me it says he is either familiar with the area or has an interest in it for some reason. From what I have read here, he has always been the outdoorsy type. So I went to this site (I suggest all posters do the same) and found that it has several areas (Salamander Loop, and other trails) that have easy access and dense woods with walking trails throughout which might be the very the of area he chose. I believe the area is about 60 miles from Charlottesville and is in Frederericksburg. Guided tours of Salamander Loop are given the second Sunday of each month. Volunteers give the tours. There is a form to fill out to become a volunteer. They attend classes and then become qualified masters. Who knows, JLM might even BE a volunteer there. It just seems like an area that Jesse would have been interested in long before September 13th. If, for example, JLM didn't pre-plan his attacks he probably didn't pre-select a site, but when the time came that he needed a location, this area might have popped into his mind. There are creek beds and the Ni River Trail as well as Salamander Loop (and others).

As a local, do you feel this area would be a feasible place for LE to search. And though we have no way of knowing how JLM thinks, he "might" think leaving a body in an area that is open to the public would take any focus off of him "specifically", thinking a defense could be it could have been anyone who accessed the area.

this is just my opinion
i believe he would head out either 20N or 20S or 250E or 250W from downtown mall
there are loads of areas nearby that are secluded and very sparsely populated and even less traveled.
i would think he would go somewhere nearby where he was familiar and would already know that it was not populated
he knew 20N and 250W the most
 
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