Happenings of December 26

[Chrishope]

The 911 call didn’t end when Patsy stopped talking to her, Archuleta explained. The telephone line had not disconnected immediately, and she had heard a definite change in the tone of Patsy Ramsey’s voice before the call was fully terminated. Archuleta explained that the hysterical nature of Patsy Ramsey’s voice appeared to have dissipated, and she thought that she had been talking to someone nearby at her end of the telephone line.

Kolar, A. James (2012-06-14). Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (Kindle Locations 1399-1402). Ventus Publishing, llc. Kindle Edition.

I understand, but what conversation? What else is supposed to have been said after PR thinks she hangs up? All I know of Patsy saying is "Help me Jesus" four times. Is there a claim that she said other things as well? Because the four times she says "Help me Jesus" doesn't sound like a change in demeanor to me.


PMPT, pp. 286-287, paraphrasing.

Patsy says "Help me Jesus"

Burke is reported to have said "Please, what do I do?"

JR then says "We are not talking to you"

BR asks "What did you find?"

The parts in blue are the only words Aerospace says were on the enhanced tape.

So it appears JR/BR were having an extremely brief conversation. PR is standing by the phone saying "Help me Jesus" and that can be heard on the tape at A Candy Rose - http://www.acandyrose.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

So please, tell me where this change of demeanor happens, because I don't hear it on the tape, and I don't see it in the transcription of the converstaion that Aerospace Corp uncovered, as reported in Perfect Murder Perfect Town.

Seven (7) latent fingerprints were able to be developed on the notepad, and CBI technicians identified one print as belonging to BPD Sergeant Robert Whitson, the person who had collected the pad from John Ramsey on the morning of the kidnapping. A print belonging to CBI Technician Chet Ubowski was identified, and the remaining five (5) latent prints were identified as belonging to Patsy Ramsey.

Kolar, A. James (2012-06-14). Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (Kindle Locations 1303-1306). Ventus Publishing, llc. Kindle Edition.

OK, so PR has prints on the RN from handling the RN. Why is that suspicious?

 

[UKGuy]

In the 911 call she says "we" several times. Not a big deal I suppose but it doesn't seem likely that they were not together for that phone call. It just doesn't seem likely she did anything without him being there. Patsy has never said there was even a hint of trepidation from John about making the call.

So if anyone thinks she caught John off guard with the 911 call, I just can't see it.
I wish I could! It would make the RN much easier to understand.

douce40,
I agree with you. I think its an error in DocG's theory, this is because he is working backwords from the conclusion and looking for reasons as to why events happened.

I cannot imagine anyone staging a crime-scene then relying on threat in a ransom note to prevent anyone dialling 911!

There are far too many assumptions, like this, in DocG's theory to make it fly for me.

.

 

[UKGuy]

:twocents:

Mr. Ramsey: Listen Carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country it serves.
At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.

You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.

(An amount not to hurt the Ramseys financially if money had to be destroyed – e.g. bank/police recorded the serial numbers.)

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attaché to the bank.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house with a hard, Samsonite suitcase.)

When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Providing ample time for JR to discard the contents of the suitcase.)

If we monitor you getting the money early we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence and earlier pickup of your daughter.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house well before any bank opens.)

Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in way marked or tampered with, she dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.

(Explanation why the kidnappers never made contact.)

You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities.
Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good, Southern common sense of yours. It's up to you now John! Victory! S.B.T.C.

WhereAreTheyNow,
Do you think the Ransom Note demands were intended to be played out in public, or is it a work of fiction?

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attaché to the bank.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house with a hard, Samsonite suitcase.)

Really, why might that matter, care to expand on this subject?

.

 

[Chrishope]

What is the exact timeline for Patsy finding the note untill a few moments later when she calls 911? It seems it is still in her hands when she calls 911, has John even had a chance to "read" it yet and insist they follow instructions?

PR claims to have found the RN at 5:45. She claims to have read only far enough to know JB was missing, was safe, and that the ransom demand was $118K. She goes to check JB's room.

JR runs downstairs, and together he and PR check BRs room.

JR reads the RN.

5:52 PR makes the 911 call.

So, 7 minutes for PR to read, scream, check, JR to run, check, and read the RN.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I understand, but what conversation? What else is supposed to have been said after PR thinks she hangs up? All I know of Patsy saying is "Help me Jesus" four times. Is there a claim that she said other things as well? Because the four times she says "Help me Jesus" doesn't sound like a change in demeanor to me.

My impression from Kolar's book is not what PR said at the end but her change in tone - as if it was obvious that she was acting during her conversation with Archuleta. Pasting a little more of the chapter (which you're probably already familiar):

Upon hearing of JonBenét’s murder, Archuleta nearly became ill. A supervisor directed her to her office where she sat and tried to calm her emotions.

She could not get past the notion that something had been wrong about the 911 call and it had been there, troubling her subconscious during her days off.

Archuleta asked her supervisor if police had listened to the 911 tape and was told that they had already obtained a copy of the recording: “What about the end of the call? Have they listened to the tail end of the call after Patsy Ramsey had stopped talking?”

The supervisor looked back at Archuleta with a puzzled look on her face. “What are you talking about?” she asked.

Kolar, A. James (2012-06-14). Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (Kindle Locations 1393-1399). Ventus Publishing, llc. Kindle Edition.

Its just the gut feeling of the 911 operator that I am referring.

FWIW, I am having a hard time imagining PR involved. I was merely getting your take on the 'evidence'.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

WhereAreTheyNow,
Do you think the Ransom Note demands were intended to be played out in public, or is it a work of fiction?

Really, why might that matter, care to expand on this subject?

Just trying to figure out the meaning/purpose of a 3-page RN.

 

[Chrishope]

My impression from Kolar's book is not what PR said at the end but her change in tone - as if it was obvious that she was acting during her conversation with Archuleta. Pasting a little more of the chapter (which you're probably already familiar):

Upon hearing of JonBenét’s murder, Archuleta nearly became ill. A supervisor directed her to her office where she sat and tried to calm her emotions.

She could not get past the notion that something had been wrong about the 911 call and it had been there, troubling her subconscious during her days off.

Archuleta asked her supervisor if police had listened to the 911 tape and was told that they had already obtained a copy of the recording: “What about the end of the call? Have they listened to the tail end of the call after Patsy Ramsey had stopped talking?”

The supervisor looked back at Archuleta with a puzzled look on her face. “What are you talking about?” she asked.

Kolar, A. James (2012-06-14). Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (Kindle Locations 1393-1399). Ventus Publishing, llc. Kindle Edition.

Its just the gut feeling of the 911 operator that I am referring.

FWIW, I am having a hard time imagining PR involved. I was merely getting your take on the 'evidence'.

No problem. I'm just trying to understand this change of tone, because that's not how it sounds to me. (But maybe my preconceptions are keeping me from hearing it?)

There is a version here http://www.acandyrose.com/patsy911-FFJ.mp3

where I can hear PR saying "Help me Jesus" but the tone doesn't seem different to me. That's what I find puzzling about Kimberly Archuleta's comment. I don't hear PR having a conversation, I hear her just repeating "Help me Jesus" but she sounds, to me, the same.

I guess I'd have to say that Archuleta probably had better listening conditions than I have. W/o a doubt she has more experience listening to 911 calls. So, I'm not sure what to think - I just don't hear the different tone. PRs voice isn't as loud, but she's not talking into the phone at that point.

I have stopped trying to figure out if PR is acting or not. I don't see (or hear) any reason to think she's faking, or any reason to insist that she isn't.

What do you hear and what are your impressions?

And thank you for the quotes. I don't have the Kolar book.

 

[UKGuy]

Just trying to figure out the meaning/purpose of a 3-page RN.

WhereAreTheyNow,
Its meaning and purpose might be two different things. Its meaning is patently relative to whatever RDI theory you hold, and its purpose must flow from this?

Do you think if JR turned up at the ransom exchange point with a Samsonite Suitcase full of money that the Foreign Faction might reject his overture, kill JonBenet, simply because he did not bring an adequate sized attaché ?



.

 

[ozazure]

WhereAreTheyKnow, your breakdown of the note makes so much sense.

What I wonder, if despite opinions that the note is written by Patsy and her fibres entwined in the cord, why John allowed that call even if he had to fly across the room and knock the phone out of her hand? Did he have to allow it because from Patsy's perspective he hadn't read the note? Did he plan to dispose of her body but the whole time have Plan B in his mind, that he may need to leave her in the basement and had made some concessions in case of that?

I guess the note can still be written by Patsy and yet she unravels the plan with the call. Was she controllable throughout the night (shock, fear, medication, contrition?) and then freaked out as the morning was about to arrive? Like maybe John was about to take JonBenet, and this was too much for her. People change their minds.

 

[InstantProof]

WhereAreTheyKnow, your breakdown of the note makes so much sense.

What I wonder, if despite opinions that the note is written by Patsy and her fibres entwined in the cord, why John allowed that call even if he had to fly across the room and knock the phone out of her hand? Did he have to allow it because from Patsy's perspective he hadn't read the note? Did he plan to dispose of her body but the whole time have Plan B in his mind, that he may need to leave her in the basement and had made some concessions in case of that?

I guess the note can still be written by Patsy and yet she unravels the plan with the call. Was she controllable throughout the night (shock, fear, medication, contrition?) and then freaked out as the morning was about to arrive? Like maybe John was about to take JonBenet, and this was too much for her. People change their minds.

yeah I was thinking there may have been a conflict about burial, with PR insisting she get a proper one (as is made an issue of in the note).

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

WhereAreTheyNow,
Its meaning and purpose might be two different things. Its meaning is patently relative to whatever RDI theory you hold, and its purpose must flow from this?

Do you think if JR turned up at the ransom exchange point with a Samsonite Suitcase full of money that the Foreign Faction might reject his overture, kill JonBenet, simply because he did not bring an adequate sized attaché ?

Rather not take that bait. But I do appreciate your welcoming questions!

 

[UKGuy]

Rather not take that bait. But I do appreciate your welcoming questions!

WhereAreTheyNow,
I did ask the questions and no answers were forthcoming. Can you distinguish between an attache and a Samsonite?


.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

WhereAreTheyNow
I did ask the questions and no answers were forthcoming. Can you distinguish between an attache and a Samsonite?

Does this make sense?

Make sure that you bring an adequate size hard, Samsonite suitcase to the bank.

Q: Can you explain why you were spotted leaving the residence at 6:00 am carrying a suitcase?

A: Yes, I was off to pick up the money and didn't have an adequate size attaché.

Was that forthcoming?

 

[DeeDee249]

Just trying to figure out the meaning/purpose of a 3-page RN.

The purpose was to explain why JB was dead. It was a perfect explanation- call police and we'll kill her. Call ANYONE and we'll kill her. Since she was already dead when the note was written, how else for the parents to explain that? Without the note, all they had was a dead child in their house who had been sexually assaulted and strangled. How would they possibly explain this away? Easy- just claim she had been kidnapped and write a ransom note threatening to kill her if they told anyone. So- all they had to do was tell everyone they knew including police.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

The purpose was to explain why JB was dead. It was a perfect explanation- call police and we'll kill her. Call ANYONE and we'll kill her. Since she was already dead when the note was written, how else for the parents to explain that? Without the note, all they had was a dead child in their house who had been sexually assaulted and strangled. How would they possibly explain this away? Easy- just claim she had been kidnapped and write a ransom note threatening to kill her if they told anyone. So- all they had to do was tell everyone they knew including police.

You apparently missed my detailed theory of the RN above.

 

[BOESP]

Just trying to figure out the meaning/purpose of a 3-page RN.

My guess is based on a theory that people who are lying will use a lot of verbiage that tries to explain-away every little detail that they think might construe an indication of guilt.

An honest statement usually only involves a direct answer with little or no embellishment.

Also, women are usually more wordy than men. It's genetic.

 

[Chrishope]

The purpose was to explain why JB was dead. It was a perfect explanation- call police and we'll kill her. Call ANYONE and we'll kill her. Since she was already dead when the note was written, how else for the parents to explain that? Without the note, all they had was a dead child in their house who had been sexually assaulted and strangled. How would they possibly explain this away? Easy- just claim she had been kidnapped and write a ransom note threatening to kill her if they told anyone. So- all they had to do was tell everyone they knew including police.

DeeDee, I have a lot of respect for your medical knowledge, and the contributions you've made here on Websleuths. So, I hope this won't be taken the wrong way (tact isn't my strong suit) but, respectfully, this makes no sense. None.

If the police are called, with the body in the house, that's pretty much a guarantee that the body will be found.

When the body is found, that guarantees the coroner will be called.

When the coroner gets involved, that guarantees TOD will be determined. (If that's possible, and in this case it's very possible)

With TOD established, detectives know she was killed long before the Rs called police, long before they talked to anyone. In fact, detectives know she had been dead several hours prior to the time the Rs claim to have discovered the RN (05:45) Police detectives know she was killed around midnight, and even with a couple hours margin of error, they know she was killed a good 4 hours or more before any instruction in the RN was violated.

Perhaps if the RN had contained an additional line which read - We have anticipated that you'd call the police and that you would talk to a stray dog, so we went ahead and killed her now, even though you won't read this for a few more hours. Maybe, with that additional line, it might be possible to suggest that the RN explains her death several hours prior to violating any instruction in the RN.

I don't think I can over-emphasize this - The RN can't explain her death, if she was supposed to be killed IF the Rs didn't follow instructions. The police, once called, are going to know, within hours or a day or so, that she was dead long before the Ramseys read the RN, (by which I mean the time they claim to have read the RN) much less violated any of the warnings.

The RN's purpose isn't to explain why she was killed several hours prior to calling the police, or to explain why her dead body is in the house. The RN has more than one purpose, but it's chief purpose, like any phoney RN, is to explain why someone has gone missing. It's really very striaght forward - phoney RNs help to stage phoney kidnappings, which in turn help to explain why someone has gone missing. That is principally what the note is about.

 

[Chrishope]

Does this make sense?

Make sure that you bring an adequate size hard, Samsonite suitcase to the bank.

Q: Can you explain why you were spotted leaving the residence at 6:00 am carrying a suitcase?

A: Yes, I was off to pick up the money and didn't have an adequate size attaché.

Was that forthcoming?

I suspect that he would not have taken the Samsonite but instead his own attache. But he's going to be driving around in a remote area and he's going to have to leave the attache when he makes the phoney drop. I suspect he'd have to destroy most, if not all, of he money.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I suspect that he would not have taken the Samsonite but instead his own attache. But he's going to be driving around in a remote area and he's going to have to leave the attache when he makes the phoney drop. I suspect he'd have to destroy most, if not all, of he money.

I was offering the possibility that the Samsonite suitcase was intentionally placed in the train room to carry JBR's body and the blanket/gown/doll/garrote out of the house.

My guess is that there was a plan at some point to remove the body before the police arrived.

That's what I meant by:

Police to JR: Can you explain why you were spotted leaving the residence at 6:00 am carrying a suitcase?

JR to Police: Yes, I was off to pick up the money and didn't have an adequate size attaché [as instructed in the RN].

Sorry for not being clear.

 

[deca]

I always felt that the RN would have been written and rewritten and eventually become a more "normal" ransom note IF they hadn't run out of time. In the hurry that night there was probably a panic about what to do but there was a definite "countdown clock" ticking. Remember they had to get up that morning to leave for their flight. I am sure they regretted that note later.