Happenings of December 26

[questfortrue]

Have to disagree with you on this one. IIRC, Melody Stanton initially said she heard a young girl scream between 12am and 2am. Her bedroom window was open 6-8 in. She woke her husband up and asked if he heard it. He said no, but he did then hear what he thought was metal scraping on concrete, as you said.

Later, MS recanted her story and said she didn't hear a scream, later adding that it may have just been "negative energy". IMO, this change in story probably happened after the RST talked to her and "convinced" her she didn't really hear anything.

Also, IIRC, the neighbor that saw the lights in the butler's pantry claimed to have heard the scream also.

What affect would a scream have on the perp? It would seem likely that the scream would cause the perpetrator to strike JB, but would the motivation have been intense fear of being discovered, or would it have been part of a rage syndrome or both? Both anger and fear have similar affects on our nervous systems, but just BR had evidence of rage incidences. If he’s swallowed up in a rage, would a quick response just be to grab something to strike her with? The past etiology has it that he would physically attack JB out of anger. JR’s anger has been noted by several people as more like “seething.” Quiet, but scary.

OTOH, while it doesn’t seem like fear would have affected BR as much in this situation as anger, if JR were the perp, fear of discovery might be the overriding emotional reponse to a scream. What disturbs me - of the many things to disturb one in this case - is why if she screamed, and it were the father of JB, wasn’t she immediately released from his grasp and a hand placed over her mouth, and then perhaps she might have been comforted. How big was the fear of discovery? Was it a split second decision that the jig was up and he needed to silence JB before evidence of what was going on in the home were revealed to others?

There’s an interesting comment from LW, former housekeeper to the R’s to add to the mix. The comment was made to Peter Boyles and it was that JR was absolutely intolerant of noise.

Just throwing spaghetti against the wall, I’ve no idea who the perp was.

 

[Chrishope]

"JonBenet Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation" by Steve Thomas pp. 78-79 Paraphrasing Steve Thomas' words

Melody Stanton initially lied to investigators saying she did not hear anything unusual the night of the 25th, morning of the 26th.

Interviewed a second time, by a detective, she admitted she had lied to avoid involvement in the case. Her story now was that she heard a piercing scream of a child coming from the Ramsey house between 12am and 2am.

I (Steve Thomas) could not imagine how anyone in the house could fail to hear the scream.

More than a year later, the police discovered that Melody Stanton had told the detective that it may not have been an audible scream but instead it might have been negative energy radiating from JonBenet.

"The detective returned to that odd point several times during the interview, but Stanton never again mentioned the 'negative energy'".

The detective did not mention the "negative energy" in his original report but was required to amend the report.

Changing the report brings the entire statement into question.

I paraphrased to avoid copyright problems. The portion in blue is an exact quote.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pC...PP1&dq=inside+the+ramsey+murder+investigation

pp 78-79

My interpretation is that the detective went over it several times to be sure she wasn't going to call it negative energy - e.g. to make sure she was going to be a credible witness. It's not clear to me how he "returned to that odd point several times" w/o her saying anything about it. Did he ask what she meant by "negative energy" ? Or did he carefully avoid asking?

IMO, what we have is a statement by a witness who has admitted lying - about not hearing anything. She then claims it might not have been audible, but rather a radiation of "negative energy". After the detective revisits the point several times, w/o her mentioning "negative energy" he writes a report that states she heard an audible scream and makes no mention of "negative energy".

I can understand her lying to avoid involvement. I can't really understand what is meant by "negative energy radiating from JonBenet". Is Stanton trying to sound like a flake so she won't be called to testify? Or is she just a flake?

This is why I question whether or not she actually heard a scream.

But other apparently heard a scream.

Why is the time line midnight to 2am? That fits with time of death, but what is Stanton telling us - that she was awake for 2 hours? That she woke up and doesn't know what time it really was but estimates between 12am and 2am?


If we want to ask why PR didn't hear the scream upstairs, that's fine. But then why do we give a pass to Mr. Stanton, who was presumably sleeping in the same bed as Melody, but who claims he didn't hear the scream?

If we are suspicious that PR didn't hear the scream then should we be suspicious of Mr. Stanton as well? Or should we be suspicious that Mrs. Stanton didn't really hear it? I'm not sure why ST has trouble imagining how anyone in the house could fail to hear the scream but apparently has no trouble with the fact that Mr. Stanton didn't hear it. Should we say that some people don't hear things in their sleep and that applies equally to Mr. Stanton and Patsy Ramsey?

Why do we need to assume the scream came from JB? The neighborhood is very close to a college campus. The scream couldn't be from anyone other than JB?

Why do we need to assume the "metal on concrete" sound came from the Ramsey home? Couldn't be someone's muffler dragging on the pavement?


To me the scream is something we can spin our wheels on, but never get closer to solving the case. Let's say, for the sake of it, that there was a scream, and that it was JB screaming. The real questions, to my mind, are; One, why would someone respond to a scream by bashing her in the head? Two, which of the three Ramseys made her scream? Was it JR? PR? BR? Are we any closer to figuring out who did it even if we agree that JB screamed?

 

[Chrishope]

What affect would a scream have on the perp? It would seem likely that the scream would cause the perpetrator to strike JB, but would the motivation have been intense fear of being discovered, or would it have been part of a rage syndrome or both? Both anger and fear have similar affects on our nervous systems, but just BR had evidence of rage incidences. If he’s swallowed up in a rage, would a quick response just be to grab something to strike her with? The past etiology has it that he would physically attack JB out of anger. JR’s anger has been noted by several people as more like “seething.” Quiet, but scary.

OTOH, while it doesn’t seem like fear would have affected BR as much in this situation as anger, if JR were the perp, fear of discovery might be the overriding emotional reponse to a scream. What disturbs me - of the many things to disturb one in this case - is why if she screamed, and it were the father of JB, wasn’t she immediately released from his grasp and a hand placed over her mouth, and then perhaps she might have been comforted. How big was the fear of discovery? Was it a split second decision that the jig was up and he needed to silence JB before evidence of what was going on in the home were revealed to others?

There’s an interesting comment from LW, former housekeeper to the R’s to add to the mix. The comment was made to Peter Boyles and it was that JR was absolutely intolerant of noise.

Just throwing spaghetti against the wall, I’ve no idea who the perp was.

This always bothers me too, but not just with respect to JR. For any of the 3 Ramseys why would a scream elicit a response of hitting her -extremely hard- rather than placing a hand over the mouth. Even if JB screamed I see no reason to assume the blow to the head was a response to the scream.

 

[Chrishope]

In PMPT (both the movie and book) detectives testing the scream in the basement determined that it COULD be heard from the parents' 3rd floor bedroom. It could also be heard across the street. Police felt this was a real indication that the parents were involved because a parent hearing that scream would come running.
A 9-year old can be mistaken about some things, but I believe a boy that age (and he was turning 10 in 2 weeks) would not be mixed up about whether his sister walked into the house awake (as he said she did_) or was carried in asleep (as his parents claim). Remember the parents already lied about whether BR owned any Hi-Tecs (he told police he did, and some of his friends also told police he did) and they lied about him being awake for the 911 call (later admitting that he was, in fact, awake). I tend to believe BR's version of events after they arrived home.

PMPT, p. 359

"...In July, sound tests conducted by the police confirmed that sound traveled more easily from the basement to the street than it did up through the three floors of the house. ..."

Apparently I did not correctly remember what Schiller had written, thinking the sound couldn't be heard on the thrid floor.

While it could be heard on the 3rd floor, it could more easily be heard across the street.

I seem to recall something about there being no windows on that side of the Ramsey home, above the basement, but I don't trust my memory on this.



So, if we believe JB screamed, (and I think it's at least a bit questionable) then we believe she was in the boiler room at the time? Because that's where the vent is which carries sound to the street.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

Your instinct, that the RN doesn't make sense is correct, IMO.

:twocents:

Mr. Ramsey: Listen Carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country it serves.
At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.

You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.

(An amount not to hurt the Ramseys financially if money had to be destroyed – e.g. bank/police recorded the serial numbers.)

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attaché to the bank.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house with a hard, Samsonite suitcase.)

When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Providing ample time for JR to discard the contents of the suitcase.)

If we monitor you getting the money early we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence and earlier pickup of your daughter.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house well before any bank opens.)

Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in way marked or tampered with, she dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.

(Explanation why the kidnappers never made contact.)

You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities.
Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good, Southern common sense of yours. It's up to you now John! Victory! S.B.T.C.

 

[Chrishope]

:twocents:

Mr. Ramsey: Listen Carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country it serves.
At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed and if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter.

You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills.

(An amount not to hurt the Ramseys financially if money had to be destroyed – e.g. bank/police recorded the serial numbers.)

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attaché to the bank.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house with a hard, Samsonite suitcase.)

When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Providing ample time for JR to discard the contents of the suitcase.)

If we monitor you getting the money early we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence and earlier pickup of your daughter.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house well before any bank opens.)

Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police or F.B.I. will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in way marked or tampered with, she dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.

(Explanation why the kidnappers never made contact.)

You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities.
Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good, Southern common sense of yours. It's up to you now John! Victory! S.B.T.C.

That pretty much explains why the RN is so long and detailed. In other theories of the case only a short simple RN is needed.

It starts to make sense once we realize there was a plan to get rid of the body.

 

[douce40]

I don't believe Patsy called the police with out John consenting. So as sensible as WHEREARETHEYKNOW's ransom breakdown is, John allowing the call to happen complicates the issue. She seemed to be acting in the 911 call. She never once asked, "What should we do?" Probably because they didn't want police to have any control at all.

It's possible John didn't want to seem suspicious to Patsy so consented the call and he had a backup plan of calling friends over for support and slipping out to rid the body while police dealt with all the people. I am leaning towards the wine cellar as a hiding spot not a staging spot. However the addition of the garrote used as another safeguard if the body was found in the house, or the garrote needed to steer away from suspicion towards R's when the dumped body found.

Maybe John's nerves were getting the better of him. When Arndt said search the house John felt he lost the opportunity to dump the body and chose to produce the body as opposed to someone else. Why would he bring the body up from the wine cellar? Well because the scene in the cellar probably showed a victim of a murder who despite the garrote looked to be cared about and pointed to family. Maybe in that split second with his nerves near shot he thought anyone other than him finding the body, would look like a family secret was uncovered by a family friend who searched a difficult to find room.

In John's mind all he could think about was ridding the body from the house. His mind fixated on the body, I believe he just gave up and produced the body hoping not to seem like the body was a hidden secret not meant to be found. If Fleet had found the body, this might have increased suspicion towards Ramsey's EVEN MORE!
At least this may been John's thinking at that critical moment in the case.

 

[CircuitGuy]

It's possible John didn't want to seem suspicious to Patsy so consented the call and he had a backup plan of calling friends over for support and slipping out to rid the body while police dealt with all the people.

That plan depends on the police not taking control of the scene. It's pretty audacious to call the cops with the idea of sneaking a dead body out while they're not looking.

 

[douce40]

That plan depends on the police not taking control of the scene. It's pretty audacious to call the cops with the idea of sneaking a dead body out while they're not looking.

If Patsy was not involved, then yes John was definitely hoping the ransom note would scare her from calling the police but as a BACKUP would then try to slip out with the body.
Yes audacious but this is the same guy who after finding his daughter murdered was arranging a trip to Atlanta without police consent.

 

[Chrishope]

Just my 2 cents on getting the body out after calling the police.

IMO, this was not the plan, largely because it would be impossible.

First, even if JR didn't know exact police procedure he had to know what any adult of average intelligence knows - the police will search the house, for clues, they might bring tracking dogs, they might call in the FBI, they might have undercover cops keep an eye on the house, they might tap phone lines. Some of these things were done, some were not, but a reasonable person would anticipate these things.

IOWs, JR (and PR if she was in on the coverup) had to know that calling the police was the equivalent of giving the body to the police. Sooner or later, the body would be found, in the house. In this case it took 7 hours, and it probably should have taken far less time. But once the 911 call is made, it's a given that the body will be found.

So, there could have been no plan to remove the body after the 911 call was made.

 

[douce40]

I agree with the ridiculousness of trying to move the body after the 911 call. I'm just trying to rationalize why that call was made. Leaving a body in your own house to be discovered is not exactly a swift move either!

 

[CircuitGuy]

Make sure that you bring an adequate size attaché to the bank.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house with a hard, Samsonite suitcase.)

When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery.
The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Providing ample time for JR to discard the contents of the suitcase.)

If we monitor you getting the money early we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence and earlier pickup of your daughter.

(Explanation if JR was seen leaving the house well before any bank opens.)

The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Explanation for why JR would go to some remote location.)

What WhereAreTheyNow is saying fits. But like any scenario, it seems like a last-minute longshot way to get away with the crime that only worked because the police didn't control the crime scene and find more evidence.

Whoever did it might as well have omitted the RN and taken all the same actions. They could have just reported JBR was kidnapped w/o a note and let someone find the body. The more evidence they leave the greater the chance of leaving behind some evidence of what happened.

It seems like whoever did it just got lucky they didn't get caught.

 

[Chrishope]

I agree with the ridiculousness of trying to move the body after the 911 call. I'm just trying to rationalize why that call was made. Leaving a body in your own house to be discovered is not exactly a swift move either!

I agree, it's not a swift move.

It's interesting to try to rationalize why they'd do that, but it always involves implausible actions. The answer, imo, is that it wasn't "The Ramseys" it was JR. If PR were in on the cover-up she would not have made that 911 call.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I don't believe Patsy called the police with out John consenting. So as sensible as WHEREARETHEYKNOW's ransom breakdown is, John allowing the call to happen complicates the issue. She seemed to be acting in the 911 call. She never once asked, "What should we do?" Probably because they didn't want police to have any control at all.

Possibilities:

1. An innocent BR woke up at his usual time (5:30 am) and interrupted the plan.

2. Arrangements were made overnight for an accomplice to remove JBR and evidence but failed (suitcase too big for train room window?).

3. It was thought that JR could leave before police arrived.

 

[Chrishope]

The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested.

(Explanation for why JR would go to some remote location.)

What WhereAreTheyNow is saying fits. But like any scenario, it seems like a last-minute longshot way to get away with the crime that only worked because the police didn't control the crime scene and find more evidence.

When you've killed your daughter and need to get her body out of the house maybe long shots are the only option?

Whoever did it might as well have omitted the RN and taken all the same actions. They could have just reported JBR was kidnapped w/o a note and let someone find the body. The more evidence they leave the greater the chance of leaving behind some evidence of what happened.

In those theories where people think "The Ramseys" actually intended for police to be called with the body in the basement, you're right, they may as well have not bothered with the RN, or at most a very short RN. IMO the reason the RN is so long is that it has to explain not only that JB has gone missing, but why the police weren't called, why JR is driving around in the country, and why JB has been killed, in case the body is ever found.

It seems like whoever did it just got lucky they didn't get caught.

The kind of "luck" that only money and influence can buy. The DA didn't want to prosecute. ST went off on a PDI theory which he couldn't prove. The RST, including Smit, were working overtime to build up the intruder theory.

 

[InstantProof]

What is the exact timeline for Patsy finding the note untill a few moments later when she calls 911? It seems it is still in her hands when she calls 911, has John even had a chance to "read" it yet and insist they follow instructions?

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I agree, it's not a swift move.

It's interesting to try to rationalize why they'd do that, but it always involves implausible actions. The answer, imo, is that it wasn't "The Ramseys" it was JR. If PR were in on the cover-up she would not have made that 911 call.

How to discount the evidence?

1. PR's demeanor changed during the last few seconds of the 911 call (when she thought that the call ended).

2. Same clothes as day before.

3. Only latent fingerprints found on note pad belonged to PR.

4. Peering at police through fingers.

5. Lying about BR being asleep.

 

[Chrishope]

How to discount the evidence?

1. PR's demeanor changed during the last few seconds of the 911 call (when she thought that the call ended).

Did it? All I've ever heard on the tape, after the call is over is PR saying "Help me Jesus" four times. The enhanced tape, not available to us, supposedly has BR asking something along the lines of "What do I do, what did you find? " and JR saying "We are not talking to you". I don't see where PR's demeanor has changed. Why would she say "Help me Jesus" after she thought she hung up the phone? The words seem consistent with a mother who thinks her daughter has been kidnapped.

2. Same clothes as day before.

IMO this is further proof she's not involved. She's not an idiot; why wouldn't she change clothes if she were involved. She took the time to do her makeup before coming downstairs, so why wouldn't she take an extra 5 minutes and change clothes? If she's part of the conspiracy she's in control of the timing of the call. Surely she can find time to change. There is another person who was in the house that night who did take a shower and change clothes....

3. Only latent fingerprints found on note pad belonged to PR.

I thought there were no prints on the RN. But I don't always recall details of the case, so maybe I'm wrong. PR handled the note, so there's no mystery about her prints being on the RN, if they are on the note. Paper isn't the best surface for retaining prints, so it's not necessarily the case that other people's prints -JR's for example- would be on the RN.

4. Peering at police through fingers.

I can't explain that. It seems suspicious.

5. Lying about BR being asleep.

Lying, misremembering (because she probably was keeping acurate minutes of the meeting in the kitchen). Lying to go along with JR's preferred version of events, given that her statements to police come 4 months after the murder, by which time PR is the prime suspect. All possibilities.

 

[douce40]

In the 911 call she says "we" several times. Not a big deal I suppose but it doesn't seem likely that they were not together for that phone call. It just doesn't seem likely she did anything without him being there. Patsy has never said there was even a hint of trepidation from John about making the call.

So if anyone thinks she caught John off guard with the 911 call, I just can't see it.
I wish I could! It would make the RN much easier to understand.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

PR's demeanor changed during the last few seconds of the 911 call (when she thought that the call ended).

Did it? All I've ever heard on the tape, after the call is over is PR saying "Help me Jesus" four times. The enhanced tape, not available to us, supposedly has BR asking something along the lines of "What do I do, what did you find? " and JR saying "We are not talking to you". I don't see where PR's demeanor has changed. Why would she say "Help me Jesus" after she thought she hung up the phone? The words seem consistent with a mother who thinks her daughter has been kidnapped.

The 911 call didn’t end when Patsy stopped talking to her, Archuleta explained. The telephone line had not disconnected immediately, and she had heard a definite change in the tone of Patsy Ramsey’s voice before the call was fully terminated. Archuleta explained that the hysterical nature of Patsy Ramsey’s voice appeared to have dissipated, and she thought that she had been talking to someone nearby at her end of the telephone line.

Kolar, A. James (2012-06-14). Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (Kindle Locations 1399-1402). Ventus Publishing, llc. Kindle Edition.

Only latent fingerprints found on note pad belonged to PR.

I thought there were no prints on the RN. But I don't always recall details of the case, so maybe I'm wrong. PR handled the note, so there's no mystery about her prints being on the RN, if they are on the note. Paper isn't the best surface for retaining prints, so it's not necessarily the case that other people's prints -JR's for example- would be on the RN.

Seven (7) latent fingerprints were able to be developed on the notepad, and CBI technicians identified one print as belonging to BPD Sergeant Robert Whitson, the person who had collected the pad from John Ramsey on the morning of the kidnapping. A print belonging to CBI Technician Chet Ubowski was identified, and the remaining five (5) latent prints were identified as belonging to Patsy Ramsey.

Kolar, A. James (2012-06-14). Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? (Kindle Locations 1303-1306). Ventus Publishing, llc. Kindle Edition.