Has any suspected family member failed 2 Lie Detector tests and been found innocent?

Discussion in 'Kyron Horman' started by just, Sep 22, 2010.

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  1. just

    just New Member

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    I'm trying to see statistically if any family member suspected of harming a child has failed (should be failed above not filed!) 2 lie detector tests and then still been found innocent (or cleared of any wrongdoing). Put your research skills to the test and post the link please :)
     
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  3. WhyaDuck?

    WhyaDuck? Inactive

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    Just, you can edit the title of the thread within the 60 minute edit window by hitting "edit" and then "go advanced."

    HTH.
     
  4. WhyaDuck?

    WhyaDuck? Inactive

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    As to the OP question, the case of Bill Wegerle comes to mind. He was the main (and only for a long time) suspect in the murder of his wife, and failed two LDTs, and was later exonerated by the discovery that his wife was actually a victim of the BTK serial killer.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/29/48hours/main890980.shtml

    ETA: Granted, this was in the 1980s, so one would hope the technology is better now, but, still, this case does give me a bit of pause in assigning too much value to LDTs. MOO.

    ETA2: Searching for theories/explanations of why Wergerle failed his tests, I found some things (not really worth linking - just forums and blogs, mostly) that suggested he was so distraught the findings were off, and/or being told repeatedly that he killed her and that he failed the first test screwed up the findings. I have also seen it suggested that being re-tested rises the anxiety enough to mess with results. All of this should be stuff an experienced LDT tech could adjust for, I should think, but one never knows. I couldn't find an official explanation for his failure, sadly.

    ETA3: Bill himself claims it was just stress: "The police suspected Bill of the murder early on—especially after he failed two lie detector tests, the first given by police and a second by a polygraph expert hired by Bill himself. “The individual that I hired to take the polygraph, he said he believed what I was saying was true. He said it's just the stress that I was under,” Bill says." (From above link.)
     
  5. just

    just New Member

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    Thanks that's very interesting! I'm sure there are others. Hopefully some smart sleuther has another example? Maybe there are times when LE has told the public someone has failed but they're really passed? Carl Probyn comes to mind (Jaycee Dugard's stepdad). I can find where it says he took the LD test but not the results. That poor man! And again, this was 20 years ago, so we do hope systems are in place to prevent this but hopefully we'll get some more responses to get statistics on this.
     
  6. WhyaDuck?

    WhyaDuck? Inactive

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    I remember in my criminal justice courses, I learned that it was not uncommon to tell someone they failed in order to encourage a confession, particularly when the results were inconclusive.
     
  7. krowdkat

    krowdkat New Member

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    I guess the real problem I have with LDT is LE themselves. It is not against the law for LE to lie to you during an investigation. Therefore, technically, they can lie and tell you that you failed certain portions even if you didn't, just to rattle you.

    I'm no TH supporter by any standards, but the only way we know that TH failed her LDTs is through Kaine. He said after the first test, TH told them she had failed. Whether she did or not, I just don't know.

    There was a case where a father was convicted of murdering his daughter while his wife was in Chicago with her girlfriends. Police told him he failed his poly when he hadn't. LE coerced his confession. The case was overturned on appeals. Can't remember what the man's name is off hand.
     
  8. WhyaDuck?

    WhyaDuck? Inactive

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    (I'm also trying to find the show 60 Minutes did on polygraphs a few years ago - IIRC, that was a really good piece.)

    ETA: It seems they might still have them at antipolygraph.org, but my Quicktime is taking a personal day, it appears. (There are two of them, expose 1 in 1986 and expose II done in 2001.) https://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=110 (first one) https://antipolygraph.org/blog/?p=107 (second one)

    ETA2: Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a "let's have a general discussion about LDTs" - carry on answering the OP. :blush:
     
  9. krowdkat

    krowdkat New Member

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    I just watched this case on MSNBC the other night...Death of a Beauty Queen.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24433365/

    Her boyfriend was found not guilty (even though he "supposedly" failed his poly miserably.

    The reporter updated at the end and said the fingerprint tied to the condom wrapper belonged to a close neighbor who had previously been convicted of sexual assault and not the boyfriend, Kevin Jones.
     
  10. Trident

    Trident Well-Known Member

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    Suppose TH failed one (or more) questions about knowing who took Kyron? Suppose she suspected KH did and either suppressed it or lied? Who knows from what we've read in the MSM, I sure don't.

    Simple conjecture, and my opinion only.
     
  11. Dee10

    Dee10 New Member

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    If she really did pass would they request another two polys? It is possible they had more questions than originally, but surely the lst one asked the main questions regarding Kyron whereabouts, etc. Do we know if Kaine took more than than just one? Remember the FBI was the one to administer them.
     
  12. WhyaDuck?

    WhyaDuck? Inactive

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    I don't know the answer to this, but I do think that if the results were open to interpretation as possibly inconclusive in any way, combined with the examiners'/agencies' certainty of someone's guilt, I do think they would continue to order tests (within reason, and I don't think 3 or 4 is too extreme) until they found the answer they were looking for. This is purely my opinion, though.

    ETA: To be clear, this is not claiming a witch hunt or a frame job - just saying that if someone (even in the FBI) felt strongly that someone was guilty they would keep working at it until they could prove it, because they think that is the right thing to do.
     
  13. Karen Anne RN

    Karen Anne RN Verified SAR & insider - Holly Bobo case

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    This was not a murder case, and it was not twice, but I think it's something to ponder....

    My X had to take a poly as part of a job application.
    They told him he failed, and they said that the results were that he was an alcoholic and a drug addict.

    We were stunned. Neither of us had ever taken any drug of any kind whatsoever, and all he ever drank was a few beers once in a while.
    It was found later that his blood pressure tended to be high on occasion.

    Fear, nervousness, and pain or discomfort, will raise blood pressure considerably. Even being rushed will do it.

    Also physical activity, such as walking. Patients in the hospital are not supposed to have their BP taken if they have just come back from a walk, or a session at rehab. It should not be taken until they have been sitting (or lying down,) for at least 15 minutes.

    Many aides will take it anyway, because they are rushed for time, or simply because they missed this in their training.

    Personally I think that if they are going to administer a poly, they should have someone who is qualified, to take the person's BP first, and if it's high, to wait until it is lowered to within normal limits.

    If the person has cronic high BP, I believe a poly should not be administered.
     
  14. Billylee

    Billylee New Member

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    Just a guess, but because they were inconclusive? And or, to put pressure on her?
     
  15. gliving

    gliving Just the facts, ma'am

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  16. Kat010

    Kat010 Former Member

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    The FBI administered the tests? Instead of the LE agency with local jurisdiction, i.e. MCSO? I didn't know that!
     
  17. debs

    debs Former Member

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    The only information Kaine and Desiree have to the status of Terri's poly's, as they say, is Terri herself, who vented and was distressed because she'd been told she failed.

    We know the FBI/LE will tell someone they failed in order to get a baseline. We know multiple poly's can be administered to get that baseline for consistency's sake. We know that a person who is told she/he is inconsistent will fret and worry and try to do better, and we also know that a person who is prone to emotional outbursts will vent about it. Further, a person whose character is that of someone trying to constantly please others (and being mocked for their attempts [Desiree's disdain for Terri's long-winded emails regarding HER son]) will feel they've somehow let everyone down and ponder what it is they can do to make it right.
     
  18. Scamperoo

    Scamperoo New Member

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    I'm not so sure about LD tests, mostly it isn't a pass or fail situation and is open to interpretation. Some people pass them who are guilty some innocents look as guilty as sin.
    LE can use deception they are under no obligation to tell anyone they passed or failed. In fact they could tell a suspect they failed and make them retake the test just to keep the pressure on. Through this there are degrees of pass or fail....a test may show deception or even shows a % of what the truth could be. They may have some value but I wouldn't base a whole case on the results.
     
  19. BeanE

    BeanE Inactive

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    BBM. I don't see the relevancy to this case? LE hasn't said a thing about LDTs in Kyron's case, except that they won't talk about them.
     
  20. BeanE

    BeanE Inactive

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    They requested an additional one, I believe. She didn't complete it, and then went back and did complete it, per K&D.

    If she passed the first, yes, they do ask people to come back for additional/different questions sometimes.

    Where was it said the FBI administered the polys? I don't recall that right off.
     
  21. Openmyeyes

    Openmyeyes On the road to Utopia

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    There is a case from 1988 where both parents supposedly passed LDT's, yet both were arrested for the murder of their daughter. The poor mother was acquitted and the step-father was convicted. His conviction was over turned in the 90's because it was found that the evidence that convicted him was also applicable to the mother and others.

    Jaclyn Dowaliby was the little girl, they lived in the south Chicago suburbs and was a huge case in the news (I lived in Chicago from 78 to 90).

    Here's a link:http://askville.amazon.com/convicted-murding-Jaclyn-Dowaliby/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=53024147
     
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