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Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Nehemiah, Aug 18, 2005.

  1. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03172000spitzondiscovery.htm

    transcript by listener on 3/18/2000

    Narrator Lyn Cannon
    Guest Forensic pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz
    From handwriting analysis to the autopsy, the lastest twist in what the evidence may reveal about this gruesome crime.

    Six year old JonBenet Ramsey is back in the news this week. The girl's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, are out with a new book that proclaimed their innocence, and offers a psychological profile about who they think killed their daughter. The case has stumped authorities for 3 yrs. One of the most basic questions that has gone unanswered,--- what weapons were used in the murder?

    THE WEAPON:

    LC: From the day the body was found, investigators knew that Jon Benet Ramsey, suffered a severe blow to the head, as well as strangulatiion with a cord. But which came first? Determining that could tell a great deal about the motive and the killer. Investigators speculate strangulation first could mean a sex crime. If the blow came first, it might point to a kidnapper or a crime of rage. Dr.Warner Spitz has conducted more than 50,000 autopsies. In 1997, he was consulted by the Boulder police investigating the murder. He says he reviewed more than 100 autopsy photos which have never been released to the public.

    You believe JBR was hit on the head first, and then strangled.

    Dr. WS: Yes.

    LC: But in reports published this week, a former detective, who also worked on the case, claimed the head wound did not bleed enough to be the first injury, but Spitz says, he can prove his case, and it's believed the Boulder police agree.

    Dr.WS: Because there was hemmoraging in the brain.

    LC: There was hemmoraging in the brain?

    Dr.WS: There was hemmoraging in the scalp, in the skin,in other words,

    LC: Spitz says those hemmorages would not have formed if JB was already dead of strangulation when she suffered the head injury.

    Dr.WS: She did have a circulation....she did have blood clots, she did have heart beat, she did breathe, for awhile, after the head injury.

    LC:Let me say that the noose, made of cord similar to this, was not tied around her neck after death. He believes that she was dying of the head injury while she was strangled. His evidence,...a tell tale pattern of hemmoraging on the internal surface of her eye lids. Petechial or penpoint hemmorages.

    Dr.WS: When strangulation occurs, there is a point where the blood vessels to the neck get obstructed. The blood still flows into the head, but it doesn't flow out.

    LC: That's because veins, which have lower blood pressure, are shut off first. Arteries, with higher blood pressure, keep flowing longer.

    Dr.WS: ........?..there is increased pressure above the knees, and tiny little blood vessels in the eyes and around the eyes, may break.

    LC: Jon Benet eyes did show this pattern of hemmoraging, indicating, Spitz says, that her heart was still beating when the noose was applied. And there's always then another question: was Jon Benet sexually assaulted, and when? Experts disagree, but Spitz's review tells him that Jon Benet had no history of sexual abuse. But a splinter found during the autopsy tells him she was sexually assaulted at the time of her death, perhaps with the artist's paintbrush tied to the cord around her neck.

    Dr.WS: I believe that this..?.pressure occurred at the time that she died, or just before, or during.

    LC: But Spitz thinks the sexual assault was an attempt to disguise the crime scene, to make it look like a sex crime.

    Dr.WS: I believe that the injury to the head was first, knocked her out. I think everything else here was staging.

    LC: Spitz maintains the blow to the head was the central element of the murder, and he carefully studied JB's fatal scull fracture.

    Dr.WS: ...? it was perfectly rectangular. That piece of bone that was knocked out, remained attached on a hinge,and was bendable.

    LC: The size and shape of the fracture was so distinctive, Spitz decided to conduct his own tests, reenacting the injury.

    Dr.WS: You could do it on syrofoam, you could do it on cardboard, you could do it on bone. I did it on all three.

    LC: Published reports this week, speculate a baseball bat, found outside the house, might be the murder weapon. Spitz's tests lead him to a weapon inside the house.

    Dr.WS: I would certainly believe that the flashlight is the instrument of death.

    LC: What makes you so sure that it's compatible. How do you know?

    Dr.WS: Because it fits right into the ....?.. It doesn't fit into the defect where it leaves some area to play with. It fits perfectly.

    LC: Not any flashlight, but a specific type police reportedly found in the Ramsey home.

    Dr.WS: The flashlight was raised above the head of the perpetrater and,a hand down,...with this portion , this wide, breaking the bone.

    LC: So who did it? Here...forensic pathology comes up short. The autopsy tells Spitz only what was done, not by whom.....



    There has been lots of speculation about which occurred first--the head injury or the strangulation. Here we have Dr. Spitz saying that he reviewed over 100 autopsy photos that were never released to the public. I don't think I realized that.

    Just a reminder to me that so much of what we think we know about this case, we do not because we haven't been privvy to all the information.
     
  2. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    Wow! Thanks Nehemiah for starting such a good thread and with a report that somehow I have never come across. Awesome!

    If we agree with Spitz, then it must have been a premeditated, accurately directed blow to the head with a maglight and then immediate strangulation following. If it fits the maglight left in the kitchen (which was wiped absolutely clean of prints inside and out), then we have planted evidence. The Ramsays said they didn't recognize that maglight. Thus Strangle Bash The Child and seriously folks that's what Leopold & Loeb intended to do with Bobby Franks. See Hal Higdon The Crime of the Century (court case).

    It may be that the perp wanted to so confuse, perplex, and puzzle the cops & FBI, that the strangle/bash was indeed done together.
     
  3. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    I personally don't trust much of what Werner Spitz has to say about the JonBenet case. His remarks seem to come in from left field.

    For instance, Spitz contradicts himself about the petechial hemorrhages on JonBenet's eyelids by saying she was alive when the ligature was pulled tight around her neck, causing the petechial hemorrhages, but then says she died from the blow on the head. JonBenet was alive when that ligature around the neck was pulled so tight that it sunk into her skin, which Spitz admits, so common sense says the ligature ended JonBenet's life by strangulation.

    If the hit on the head had killed JonBenet then there would have been no petechial hemorrhages on the eyelids nor any other place. Dead people cannot produce petechial hemorrhages. The heart has to be pumping.

    JonBenet died by asphyxia as a result of the strangulation. The bash on the head was delivered after death. That's why there was no blood -- the heart wasn't pumping.

    Also, but a little off topic to help explain why I don't trust Spitz, the marks on JonBenet which the coroner and other forensic experts agree are consistent with stun gun injuries, Spitz says were likely caused by stones lying on the basement floor or by snaps on an article of clothing. He failed to produce the whereabouts of the crime scene stones or the snaps.

    BlueCrab
     
  4. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    Dr.WS: She did have a circulation....she did have blood clots, she did have heart beat, she did breathe, for awhile, after the head injury.

    LC:Let me say that the noose, made of cord similar to this, was not tied around her neck after death. He believes that she was dying of the head injury while she was strangled. His evidence,...a tell tale pattern of hemmoraging on the internal surface of her eye lids. Petechial or penpoint hemmorages.


    He says that she did breathe for awhile after the head injury and that the strangulation took place while she was still alive...yet dying. Dr. Spitz has performed over 50,000 autopsies...that's a lot. Not that he has to be 100% right because of his experience, but he has something that we do not--over 100 autopsy photos and extensive experience on his side.

    I guess each has to decide for him/herself what to believe, and I am taking his report to be accurate.
     
  5. capps

    capps New Member

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    This may be a silly question ... but does it really matter which happened first? Obviously,one or the other caused death,and it still doesn't prove who did it.
     
  6. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    Yes and no. If the blow was after the garrote that certainly takes away from the idea that Patsy hit her in a fit of rage and all else was coverup.

    Without a confession we'll probably never know who did it.

    I think the BDI theory is as much a house of cards as the JAR flew in from GA, killed his sister, and then flew back before anyone noticed he was gone theory.
     
  7. capps

    capps New Member

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    If the blow was after the garrote that certainly takes away from the idea that Patsy hit her in a fit of rage and all else was coverup.

    Tipper,

    You're right,that would be one of the reasons they would need to know.

    I guess it was a silly question lol.
     
  8. tipper

    tipper Former Member

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    Not silly since as you said earlier the BIG question is who, not in what order.
     
  9. Charlie

    Charlie New Member

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    The hardest part of this case for me personally is knowing what expert to believe...Dr Spitz says one thing, Dr cyril wecht says another...what came first is soo bloody subjective. If anyone has absolute recall on what doctors particpated in the JBR case and what thier analysis was, concerning the timeline of the head blow and strangulation could u please post it, that way we can all see who says what, and how many different opinions there are.

    Arg so frustratring all these doctors with years and years experience all contradicting each other.
     
  10. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    Charlie, I feel the same way and would like to get onto the straight and narrow where everything falls into place. There's a lot of fuzziness because people just keep discounting evidence to fit their own theory. I think imagination is important and to speculate what might have happened. Test it with the facts and a consistency. If it doesn't fit, loosen up and let it roll. Open up to other possibilities. I like the red wine my wife makes.

    I guess I'm dug in just as deep as Bluecrab about my own theory. If IDI, the perp was asking us to listen carefully. "Follow our instructions to the letter" means JB will be dead. "Follow our instructions to the letter" comes from Leopold & Loeb. I credit Jameson for that. Thus "follow our instructions to the letter" SBTC means that the child is strangled and bashed.

    However, IF IF IF (hello Camper), the RN relates to L&L and thus the movie: "Rope", I find it a weird coincidence that PR mentioned Lazarus just like in that movie. Just another coincidence.

    Fellow Pierot's (and proud to be) I toast you with this good wine!
     
  11. BlueCrab

    BlueCrab New Member

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    Rupert,

    Thanks for waiting until you completed posting before finishing off the rest of that good wife-made red wine. Who is Pierot? Ross?
     
  12. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    Hmmm, whut does she make the wine out of? DO you grow yer own grapes?

    Thank you Nehemiah, I would like to see a picture of Werner Spitz, I am suspecting he is of German heritage, which makes him automatically a perfectionist, as opposed to a loose canon type.

    IF IF the blow did come first, that presents a very complex situation. The blow was as I recall to the side of her head. SO IF IF our perp had her lying on the bed, was she facing her perp or not? Her bed on the left side as we look at her bed, had a narrow space between it and the wall. Am I remembering incorrectly on that, er, huh?

    SO, sleuthing in my hed, would tell me that our perp was between the two beds and closer to the nightstand. Here comes a good question, 'which side of her head' had the BLOW? ALL of my sleuthing here is based on the 'attack' happening in her bedroom, which may or may not be correct.

    Then we are left with WS and his loose stones er snaps.

    Burp.


    Ahh that cleared my head a bit. Remember waaaaay back when a psychic entered the Ramsey home escorted by ??? escapes my memory. BUT, the point is that the psychic had purportedly NEVER been in the R home before. The psychic said that a childs yellow rain slicker could be found in the front closet, and it was tied to the crime. NOW then, a rain slicker could have snaps on it, I think I have a breakthrough here, hmmm.

    Well, I donut remember the psychics name, and I donut remember who was with her (think it was a her - ain't most psychics?) Plus I just plain don't know what happened with the psychics thoughts when told to the BPD, I am guessing that they just stood around and laffed, I donut know.

    Anyone remember all of this stuff?

    OOPS forgot something, editing to add, as I recall a childs 'yellow rain slicker' was found in that very closet.


    .
     
  13. Rupert

    Rupert Former Member

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    Pierot: French inspector of Agatha Christie? Murder on the Orient Express? I hope I got that right.

    Off for weekend holiday at last. It's been a stressful work summer and this mystery sleuth thing with you guys is interesting and helps me escape/relax. I'm catching Camper's humor. I only had two glasses and barbecued at 11pm.
     
  14. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    Well would you believe it I had yet another thought, driven by Nehemiahs great thread here.




    WAS JonBenet struck while sitting up, lying down, from the back or from the front. IF IF WS said the flashlight fit perfectly with NO PLAY, HOW did the flashlight fit in the skull that would answer my questions here?

    In answering my own questions here, I believe the blow was vertical on the side of her head, correct me IF IF I err. If that is so, then she may have been struck by a person standing up - who was either much taller than she, OR to think indelicately - she could have been doing something 'for' the perp, when she was struck alongside the head.

    Anyone still have pictures of the flashlight that is a popular one used by pilots, and that the Ramseys owned but did not know where 'their' flashlight was, OR where it was typically kept?

    Pictures again of the head trauma, would be enlightening, can someone pull them up again? Thanks.

    .
     
  15. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    I too believe JonBenet was struck in the head with the flashlight...in a fit of rage. The swelling from the blow caused the cord to burrow into her neck. The cord was not intentionaly tied tight as was the cord around her wrist.

    So there goes the AE scenario....JonBenet was accidently hit over the head and the rest was staging.

    If she was strangled first...my belief was that Burke strangled her with his Nintendo64 controller.

    Camper...JonBenet's head wound was on the right side of her head...from the orbital region all the way to the back of her head. The bone on the back of her head was shattered. The flashlight is just the right length for this head injury especially since the bone shattered....which would be hard to do with a baseball bat.
     
  16. Camper

    Camper New Member

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    Thank you for the remembrance about the head wound. HOW DID the flashlight fit, was she then struck from the back of the head or from the front?

    IF IF JonBenet was struck from behind then WHERE would this place the flashlight wielder TO HAVE ACCIDENTALLY hit her, wouldn't the perp person have been behind her to be strangling her with a Nintendo cord? IF IF this was NOT the case, and the strangler person were in front of JonBenet, there should have been many many dna scratch samples from the attacker under her fingernails, huh?

    There was a heighth difference in both children.

    IF IF she was struck face on, it would hardly seem an accident.

    SO which way was the flashlight striking surface facing?

    Is a Nintendo cord NOT covered with rubber, therefore not allowing it to hold a tight knot?

    IF IF the Nintendo cord was used for major damage, HOW do we explain the EA device. Who made it?


    .
     
  17. Linda7NJ

    Linda7NJ Active Member

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  18. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    Werner U. Spitz, MD

    Consultant Forensic Pathology and Toxicology Medical Examiner, Macomb County, Michigan Professor of Pathology, Wayne State University School of Medicine Adjunct Professor of Toxicology, University of Windsor, Canada

    Dr. Spitz received his medical training at the Geneva University Medical School in Switzerland and the Hebrew University, Hadassa Medical School in Jerusalem, Israel. He is certified by the American Board of Pathology in Anatomic and Forensic Pathology. Dr. Spitz served as chief medical examiner of Wayne County (Detroit, Michigan) for 16 years and retired from this position in October, 1988. Other positions Dr. Spitz held were deputy chief medical examiner of the state of Maryland, associate professor of forensic pathology at Johns Hopkins University and lecturer in the department of forensic pathology at the Free University in Berlin, Germany.He is author of 90 scientific publications, author and editor of the authoritative and celebrated textbook, Medicolegal Investigations of Death. The expanded and updated third edition is now available. He has served on various committees investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.,including the House Committee on Assassinations. Dr. Spitz has served as an expert in many cases receiving national attention, the California Night Stalker murder trail, Mary Jo Koepeckne, the Franke murder trial in Oregon and the “Preppy Murder Trial” in New York City are but a few. He has lectured and given expert testimonyworldwide. Dr. Spitz served as an expert commentator for network television during the O.J. Simpson trial and JonBenet Ramsey case.

    www.med.wayne.edu/cme/Medical Legal 04.pdf
     
  19. Nehemiah

    Nehemiah Active Member

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    Until I started this thread, I never looked into Dr. Spitz' qualifications or his assessment of the murder. I found this interesting once again even though we've posted endlessly about a stun gun or not.


    ...More than any other evidence, detective Lou Smit believes that small marks left on JonBenet’s face and back, prove that an intruder killed JonBenet.

    “The killer had a stun gun. I am sure the killer had a stun gun,” he says.
    But the Boulder police are relying on another opinion, that of Dr. Werner Spitz. He thinks that pebbles or rocks on the floor caused the marks. Spitz has worked as a forensic pathologist in Michigan for nearly 50 years.

    “A stun gun. Stun gun injury is an electrical burn, and these do not look like electrical burns,” he says. Spitz believes the large, dark mark on JonBenet’s face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing...


    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523887.shtml

    And then we have Patsy saying this in a police interview:

    THOMAS HANEY: Okay. Anything else

    2 on the bed?

    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this looks

    4 like a little -- the little pot holder square

    5 she was making. This multi-colored thing here.

    6 This black thing I can't (INAUDIBLE). Oh,

    7 that's sort of looks like it might be the little

    8 velvet dress (INAUDIBLE). Little silver snaps.

    9 TRIP DeMUTH: When did she last

    10 wear that?

    11 PATSY RAMSEY: She wore that to the

    12 Whites on the 25th.

    13 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. The evening of

    14 the 25th?
     
  20. capps

    capps New Member

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    Rupert,
    I loved the Pierot mysteries,I used to watch them all the time on PBS ... of course while having a nice glass of Pinot Grigio,it may not have been wife made,like yours,but my son lives in the Sonoma/Napa valley,(wine country),and always brings some home .... so close enough!

    Enjoy your holiday week end ... there is a tornado watch here for us ... yikes!

    Back on topic ... for sure, Dr. Spitz is no slouch,but then again neither is Dr. Meyer ... that's what makes this case so difficult.Except for poor JonBenet being dead,I don't think there's anything else that any one agrees on.

    Makes one reach for another glass of fine wine.
     

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