Holly Bobo, missing from TN 2014 discussion #5 ***ARRESTS***

Discussion in 'Holly Bobo' started by nursebeeme, Mar 5, 2014.

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  1. spooky24

    spooky24 Member

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    Well Bundy didn't confess to the head mystery until about an hour before he was executed. Dalmer's remarks are all public record. The rest from FBI training class. John Douglass has written some excellent books about the deep psychosis of individuals who have crossed the line between fantasy and reality. Mindhunter is the best one although it can be quite disturbing to some people.

    There is little doubt that these 2 men are involved in the crime-if it can ever be proven that a crime took place. As a matter of fact it's hard to see them not involved. However, our legal system could care less about opinions, it is based on facts-and certain facts-like proving a crime has taken place. Both men are veterans of the system and know that as long as they keep their mouths shut there will never be a trial because no crime has been committed in the eyes of the law.

    Since both survived the sheer hell of the rubber room they are obliviously committed and the 24th Judaical district is running out of options. The video is meaningless as evidence because of the ease of manipulation of digital video. The defense would have no trouble keeping it out of any trial because they have no when, where, who and why. The witness that testified was obliviously coached and looks unbelievable in my opinion. Any second year law student could destroy her on cross-like Deborah Harry said: 'Rip her to shreds' and that is putting it mildly.

    There have been only four murder convictions in Tennessee without a death certificate. These cases were vastly different as one was a confession, two were simply forgotten by the perpetrator and the last there was tangible evidence that the death had occurred. None of these were overturned on appeal so this case-as it stands now-has little-or no chance of ever getting anywhere near a courtroom.

    The media releases are interesting as going back to look they all are released at 5:30am-just in time to hit the news wires and be carried across the nation and the world. I can't take credit for this observation/deduction however this is simply bizarre to go to so much trouble to appease the media. It takes little deduction skill to see that the media has made up their minds that this is a bust and, in their opinion, they have better things to focus on and exploit. Trying to keep this mess in the news is proving difficult for the 24th and that explains the press releases and the silliness of the video.
     


  2. maskedwoman

    maskedwoman Member

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    But, what you are suggesting is basically two trials to obtain a single conviction. That, certainly, is not what our founding fathers envisions for us, either, is it?
     
  3. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    spooky22, I luv reading Geberth, Douglas, Depue, Ressler, etc. I enjoy reading your posts and honor your opinions, but respectfully disagree.. Videos or photos taken of fantasies would be considered synonymous to capturing a camera shot of a mirage or apparition..
    spooky22, times, ther are a changin.. trophys> souvenirs>photos/videos are kept for multiple purposes. One purpose is for reliving their deviant crimes...jmo



    http://murderpedia.org/male.B/b1/bundy-ted.htm
    Bundy confessed to keeping other souvenirs of his crimes. The Utah police who searched Bundy's apartment in 1975 missed a collection of photographs that Bundy had hidden in the utility room, photos that Bundy destroyed when he returned home after being released on bail.

    __________________________________

    Interesting Read> Profiling Serial Killers : A stratified look at common characteristics spread across taxonomy, race, and gender.more
    http://www.academia.edu/2578330/Pro...istics_spread_across_taxonomy_race_and_gender
     
  4. OldSteve

    OldSteve Well-Known Member

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    Jumping off your post, I don't disagree, but my fear is that their their may have been pressure to go forward without really having enough solid evidence. Reminds me a bit of my experience in the corporate world where the president wanted something done by a certain date, and while lower eschalant knew it could not be done, no one had the nerve to speak up and risk being fired for having a negative attitude.
     
  5. Carla Lashelle

    Carla Lashelle New Member

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    I haven't had much to say. Until more concrete "evidence" comes out there really isn't much to discuss. I don't have a lot of faith in law enforcement, though. And, all the discussion about the video, etc. has just got me depressed.

    Also WS moved everything around and it was hard to find the current thread. I gave up for a while.
     
  6. Mr. Noatak

    Mr. Noatak New Member

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    My opinions only, no facts here:

    The profile of meth addicts is almost universally desperation-based. They steal anything that is not tied down, and account for a huge percentage of identity theft and a significant percentage of property crimes (when you go days without sleeping: robbing mailboxes, burglarizing properties, hacking computer systems, writing bad checks, etc. is easy). If you get in their way during a home break-in or are walking down the road when they drive by, you may well be in trouble. But you and/or your home WILL be robbed of all valuables during the encounter. What meth addicts rarely do is plan a complex kidnapping for the purpose of emotional revenge only. No ransom demand, no looting of their household valuables, no power-gain in the drug trade, etc. A person on meth only wants money to buy more meth. They might commit a crime of passion if opportunity falls in their lap, but do not go ten feet out of their way unless it involves getting money or physical crystal meth.

    On the other hand, an obsessed male will go a thousand miles out of their way to target a female victim. Obsessions can remain vividly strong for years. They may monitor their target for days, weeks, months, or longer before striking. They act alone. They commonly possess fantasies that they can convince the victim to go with them voluntarily, to be their "girlfriend".

    Just saying, for the spirit of discussion.
     
  7. spooky24

    spooky24 Member

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    Yes, it is an opinion. I base-or I put more weight on- what Dalmer said as he was the only psychopath at this level to ever show any remorse-other than remorse at being caught. This incident you mention is not in Michaud and Aynesworth's timeline for Bundy however that didn't mean it didn't happen. If you recall Belle Gunness made crosses with hair and blood at first until she got confused and buried them all together-could these be remembrances? Too bad we never got to ask her. Ressler talks a lot about about trying to think like these people-I find it impossible So, as you say, it's an opinion.

    I'm sure you agree that the two individuals locked up for this crime-and awaiting something however I doubt it's a trial- simply don't possess the intelligence to even begin to process a psychopathology fantasy world.

    I'm not sure where some of you get your information about methamphetamine however my experience with dozens of addicts is no where near as fanatical as described. Hurting from Meth leaves a person incapable of doing anything violent as the drug overuses the body chemistry to a point that toxins replace, or inhibit, blood cell manufacture-just like a hangover from alcohol-and it takes time to get the body stabilized so the person can think straight. Veteran meth addicts can start and stop countless times-like chipping for heroin addicts.

    Methamphetamine detox can safely be done by the user. My experience is that benzodiazepam withdraw is much more violent and desperate especially xanax long term users.

    Alcohol is still the most additive drug-with the worst and most dangerous detox withdraw by far-nothing else even comes close.
     
  8. OldSteve

    OldSteve Well-Known Member

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    You got me wondering - so what happens when the obsessed male become a meth addict? Does he become empowered to do things he wouldn't have done in the past?
     
  9. oceanblueeyes

    oceanblueeyes Well-Known Member

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    I still believe the situations are totally different between the cases you linked and the Holly Bobo case.

    It is hard for anyone to say that accusations of child abuse are untrue or it was hard at that time. We are in a different era now than we were 20-30 years ago when terrible mistakes were made. We are no longer seeing these type of cases like the one you linked or the one like the McMartin case where they were accused of abusing multiple children and it turned out not to be the case. Today in the priest cases and cases like Sandusky, etc. the victims are adults at the time of the trial and not impressionable children.

    Do you have a link that tens of thousands are found NG every year by Judges or juries? TIA.

    Quite a few DAs prefer to have a preliminary hearing instead of using a GJ and the Presiding Judge is the one who decides if there is enough evidence for it to go forward.

    Only about 10% of cases even go to trial. Most all of them end up in plea deals and a trial is never held. The court system does not have the time, money nor staff to try all cases, and that is why DAs are open to pleading most cases out. Of course some crimes
    if they are heinous and hideous enough a plea deal is out of the question and will not even be an option. Imo, just like ZA&JA will not be offered a plea deal of any sort.

    A GJ indictment is simply saying the GJurors were presented with enough evidence that they believe it should be forwarded on. Even when an indictment is handed down it does not mean that the DA must go forward. If they do not feel they have enough evidence to prove their case they will still not bring charges. Just like Alex Kelly didn't bring charges in the JBR case even though he had an indictment handed down by the GJ. GJs have no power over the state prosecutors decisions whether they try a case or not. It is always left up to the DA if they think they can prove BARD the indictment handed down by the GJ. That makes perfect sense since it is the prosecutor who has the burden of proving his or her case.

    I have never seen anyone say that GJs are perfect but saying they will indict a ham sandwich is far fetched and IMO has no basis in truth. They play a much different role in our court system than prosecutors who try the case or jurors who sit in judgment on cases. GJs do not decided guilt or innocence so I don't understand why you think they should be allowed to convict and sentence anyone. They do not hear all the evidence the DA has in any case for that is not their role so they do not have the evidence presented to them that can prove the case to them BARD. They base their decisions on whether to true bill a case or no bill it, which they also do, based on the testimony they have heard. That is why we have jurors or presiding Judges over a bench trial. They are the true triers of fact...not the GJ or the DA.

    If GJurors simply rubber stamped every case that is handed to them then I could see why some would believe they will indict and do indict anyone and everyone but that is not the case. In my own county every time the GJ meets there are cases they 'no billed.' And since far far more cases are won when it does go to trial rather than ending in a NG or the defendant plead guilty at some point it shows GJs get it right most all of the time, day in, and day out. No human being is infallible but imo, they do a great service in their community for the criminal justice system, and IMO each one takes their duty seriously.

    IMO
     
  10. OldSteve

    OldSteve Well-Known Member

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    Grand juries indict most suspects in less time than it takes to brew a pot of coffee. Some grand jury forepersons have complained for years about the churning of cases in rooms controlled by prosecutors. -
    http://www.cleveland.com/rule-29/index.ssf/2010/11/grand_juries_gatekeepers_or_op.html

    Former New York State chief judge Sol Wachtler, once famously said that a district attorney can "by and large" get a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwich." -
    http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2011/02/legalese-101-what-exactly-is-a-grand-jury.html
     
  11. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    <BBM for focus>

    Spooky24, R Douglas and J Depue also write about entering the minds of the perp/s, as well as the victim/s, and the terrible toll it can take on the profiler's health..
    It is very easy for some to enter the abyss, yet very difficult to exit, imo..

    I'm not sure about the 2nd suspect in Holly Bobo's abduction/murder, but imo ZA is psychopath and very intelligent. I learned a long time ago to never misunderestimate a psychopath..

    Comparing HB's case to another horrific meth related murder, TBI director Mark Gwyn, began his comments to the TN Senate Judiciary by saying he investigated one of the state's first meth-related murders in the 1990s and "thought that would be the only time I would see that." Below is the case he is referring too..

    <sniped - read more>
    James Christopher Tatrow Murders - Begin reading on Page 3 >
    http://www.tncourts.gov/sites/default/files/OPINIONS/tcca/PDF/984/tatrowjc.pdf

    Six defendants were convicted including James Christopher Tatrow, who confessed to the killings. All had one thing in common; Methamphetamine...
    After days of torture, they murdered Zammit & Harry, wrapped them in chicken wire and tied cement blocks to them, then threw them off the hurricane bridge into the depths of the caney fork river.
    Moore said, "It is one of the most horrendous crimes during my tenure working in the upper cumberland, and I have been working here for over 30 years.

    FYI: Meth was given to both sides during World War II to fight fatigue & hunger- Meth became infamous for its use by the JAPANESE KAMIKAZE Pilots...
    http://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfacts/crystalmeth/history-of-methamphetamine.html

    http://www.wkrn.com/story/24958989/meth-questions-emerge-dramatically-in-holly-bobo-case
    <sniped & BBM>

    "I have got to mention it," said TBI Director Mark Gwyn during a Tennessee State Senate Judiciary hearing about new anti-meth bills. "Lo and behold the person has several meth-related charges and the night we arrested him he was trying to get meth into the jail."

    Before pausing, Gwyn asked lawmakers, "At what point do we not stop this, at what point do we not stop the murders?"

    The TBI director began his comments by saying he investigated one of the state's first meth-related murders in the 1990s and "thought that would be the only time I would see that." <read More>
     
  12. spooky24

    spooky24 Member

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    I was simply stating my experience with addicts of methamphetamine and certainly not intending that all act that way. Besides, the poster made it sound as if persons hurting from meth go crazy and steal and rob anyone everywhere. Once detox begins most can't even get up off the couch much less go through crazy crime sprees. Alcohol is the main driving force in aggressive criminal behavior.

    Again my statement was misunderstood. Psychopaths on the level of Bundy or Dalmer are extremely rare because it takes a life time almost to get this far. It starts in the early teen years and takes decades to develop this level of psychosis. Also, these individuals must be highly intelligent, cunning, clever, have advanced street skills, be likeable and charming one minute, merciless, cold and cruel the next but most of all they need incredible amounts of luck. Bundy had committed 24 murders before he was ever arrested. Dalmer close to 20-that he remembered. A person with a long rap sheet of arrest could never be psychotic at this level. Ressler was worldly criticized with his profile that Reb (Eric) was a 'budding psychopath' was simply wrong because he had just turned 18. I never read a single thing in all his writings-as much as you can with his terrible handwriting-that he was nothing other than your typical pissed off teenager with a death wish. They are a dime a dozen these days. I lost a great deal of respect for Ressler who appeared to be succumbing to political correctness.

    I know of none, with the exception of possibility of H.H. Holmes that were drug addicts. Alcohol plays a part however an alcoholic could never devolve to this level of thought sophistication.

    The main problem with the Holly Bobo case to me is trying-unsuccessfully-to put this into any sort of profile. There is just as much strong evidence that this was a crime of opportunity as there is for a planned confrontation. The early statements about hearing a conversation in which the victim was quoted saying-"No, Why?-is nonsensical in either case. On the surface it seems to be a deliberate statement of misdirection. For which I'm sure detectives noticed this right away.

    If and when this case ever come to fruition I believe it will be different than most thought processes at this moment.
     
  13. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    spooky24, as you are aware, behavioral profiling is only one tool of many utilized in missing/murdered persons investigations.. There is really no way of telling the accuracy rate of FBI BAU profiles since they rarely release them to the public, until the profilers retire and write their books years later. While checking into the Parsons motel for the Easter weekend search, the clerk advised me that the profilers from the BAU had just checked out minutes before..

    spooky24, imo you are underestimating the number of psychopaths in our midst, as well as the common denominator of meth as it relates to sexual predators/serial killers. Meth abuse creates psychopathic personalities, brazen, and deviant behavior, imo. Holly's abduction is not related to the detox of a meth addict, imo..

    Holly's abduction was very well planned and meticulously executed, imo. ZA was also very lucky that tragic morning due to the lack of preparedness by first responders; DCSO/HCSO. Imo, a preabduction plan would have likely resulted in Holly's rescue and ZA's apprehension..

    Hindsight...Think back; Bobo family's schedule, the full camo, turkey season, the time of day, the immediate compliance of the Holly by the perp/ZA, the escorting of the victim to the escape vehicle, and then on to his safe haven/2nd crime scene location. ZA, is/was an organized offender, obviously brazen, likely a very experienced, investigative(shift change schedule by DCSO) and forensically aware, etc. All of these observations should have been obvious by competent investigators and behavioral profilers on day one, imo..

    Imo, knowledge of the area's history and culture is very important when sizing up an abduction crime scene..
     
  14. OldSteve

    OldSteve Well-Known Member

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    Lots of good info ^^, and I sure do agree about the abduction being well planned and meticulously executed. I find it odd that ZA from all accounts that mentioned his impulsive, explosive past actions could have been so cool-headed.
     
  15. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Thank you OldSteve, and very good point about ZA's usual impulsiveness.. ZA's confidence is what concerns me.. Imo, this is indicative of recidivist sexual predator that has honed his skills for years or eve decades, imo.. It is very doubtful that Holly was his first innocent victim, imo..
    Imo, much info of ZA will be mined from the forensics investigation of his pc, cell phone/s, books, etc., from the February 2014 search warrant by the TBI of his home and property. The psychological evaluation of ZA by the state's examiner should also be very revealing..
    Imo, ZA, obviously a non-empathetic psychopath, was likely an avid reader and extremely intelligent before being somewhat diminished by his years of drug abuse...
     
  16. OldSteve

    OldSteve Well-Known Member

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    Agree again!
    He learned how to get away with things - all what better way than by being informer. Did LE make a deal with the devil?
     
  17. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Very possibly a confidential informant, OldSteve..imo
     
  18. evelyn24

    evelyn24 cray cray

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    And the fact all three have long arrests records, it's not surprising they connected themselves with a this group considering white men in jail, like black men and latinos, need/want protection from getting beaten and attacked by other groups. They try and get with a gang to have some power and protection in the clink.

    This is all a big...so what, imo. You really think these three were some major players in any gang? I don't, but it's nice the media is trying to make this into something it's not.
    I wanna see the evidence in the Holly Bobo case that shows a kidnapping and murder, and show these two were involved. That's all.
     
  19. Foxfire

    Foxfire New Member

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    Nope evelyn, just birds of a feather... I just hope that all the right men/perps involved in Holly's abduction/murder are brought to justice, for her and the Bobo family, friends, and loved ones....and that her remains are eventually located..

    "Bring Her Home" (Holly Bobo)
    by Heather Cohen

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0BkJQM-ZPY
     
  20. rtjedarling

    rtjedarling New Member

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    ZA - in his head- he knows more about the effects of meth on him than any researchers, he's smarter than any LE because if LE were smart they wouldn't uphold the law but go by their own rules to get what they want like him, and he can certainly come up with a plan to abduct a girl and get away with it, even if it means keeping a cool head, and then sit back and laugh at their aXXes
     
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