How bad a mother does it take? European or American ideas?

[SleuthMom]

This has been a very interesting thread.

I agree with you 100% that even if a parent's own terrible error in judgment plays a part in the death of their child, that parent is still a victim. In fact, their pain in probably even greater than the pain of a parent whose child is snatched and gone and missing under different circumstances (ie - where the parent did not make an error in judgment that contributed to the crime).

There is a huge difference between PAIN and GUILT. The parent who was NOT irresponsable for her daughter to be missing feels PAIN for the loss, the parent who was irresponsable feels GUILT. A parent whose idiotic behavior puts his/her daughter in a situation like this and now she is missing, how in the world could this parent who placed their kid in this situation of danger by NOT fulfilling their basic parenting skills can be called a "victim"? I absolutely disagree with this term for these type of parents.

Some time ago, a woman here left her three toddlers alone in the home and a hot pot on the stove while she went to do groceries. The kids died on a terrible fire. I REFUSE to call her a "victim" because her stupidity and irresponsable behavior caused these kids to died in the most terrible manner. The only victims here were those kids.

The ONLY victim here is Madeleine Mc Cann, IMHO.

Even if it turns out that they had a hand in Madeleine's disappearance, I will continue to have empathy for them. I cannot imagine the type of darkness and confusion a person must be in to harm a child.

Empathy? IFit turns out they harm little Madeleine..as a mom myself, I cannot even comprehend to feel "empathy" for them but I would feel DISGUST by not only what they have done to her but for the LIES and DECEIVING they have caused and the millions they raised in the name of their daughter, when all along they knew she was dead. IFthey did it empathy is not even on my list.

 

[Rino]

Even if it turns out that they had a hand in Madeleine's disappearance, I will continue to have empathy for them. I cannot imagine the type of darkness and confusion a person must be in to harm a child.

Continued prayer's for this young girl's discovery and return.

You are a far kinder person than I .....

 

[ny_]

Empathy? IFit turns out they harm little Madeleine..as a mom myself, I cannot even comprehend to feel "empathy" for them but I would feel DISGUST by not only what they have done to her but for the LIES and DECEIVING they have caused and the millions they raised in the name of their daughter, when all along they knew she was dead. IFthey did it empathy is not even on my list.

I know we're talking a big, hypothetical if here (even though I'm leaning towards suspecting the parents, I'm still not 100% convinced because of a few issues). But if it does turn out the parents did it, I completely agree with you SleuthMom. Not only did they kill an innocent child, they manipulated people and wasted resources that could have been used to find other missing children. Not to mention, if it turns out this is all a hoax, how responsive is the public going to be to the next missing child? Will the public look it at like the boy who cried wolf? Will another child who is actually abducted suffer because of it? Again, I'm talking hypothetically here.

 

[CaliKid]

Absolutely. Madeleine is the victim here, not her parents. Even if it turns out that she was kidnapped, which I don't think is true, it wouldn't have happened if the McCanns had stayed home with their children. And I don't believe the nonsense of "Madeleine was targeted" either.

Parents who don't leave their children = children who 99% of the time don't get kidnapped.

 

[southcitymom]

There is a huge difference between PAIN and GUILT.......

Empathy? IFit turns out they harm little Madeleine..as a mom myself, I cannot even comprehend to feel "empathy" for them but I would feel DISGUST by not only what they have done to her but for the LIES and DECEIVING they have caused and the millions they raised in the name of their daughter, when all along they knew she was dead. IFthey did it empathy is not even on my list.

I find guilt to be very painful, so I'm not able to make the distinction that you do.

Also, I understand that not everyone feels for the victims and the perpatrators when crimes occur. But I do, and I can't pretend otherwise.

 

[southcitymom]

You are a far kinder person than I .....

Hardly, Rino. We all just have different lens through which we view the world.

 

[ny_]

Again, I think fathers share an equal responsibility, so it's more an issue of parenting than "mothering".

I did a bit of searching re: leaving kids home alone in the UK. Found several UK sites which advise against leaving babies/toddlers alone even if they're sleeping. Don't know if this was the advice before the disappearance of Madeleine McCann or if it was changed after.

NSPCC site on leaving children home alone:
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/HelpAndAdvice/Parentsandcarers/HomeAlone/homealone_wda35965.html

http://www.neighbourhoodwatch.net/index.php?func=PageResourceStory&Type=&StoryId=116&Library=Y

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/leaving_children.html

An academic thesis on the issue:
http://etheses.nottingham.ac.uk/archive/00000063/01/R_Calcraft_PhD_thesis.pdf

As for news articles, it seems to vary widely.

UK couple leave 5 & 1 year old alone in hotel room for 45 mins in FL, arrested. The 5 year old woke up & was wandering around:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/362158.stm

Not the same circumstances, but news story of Mom of older kids on vacation:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3187470.stm

Parents leave kids (ages 3 & 7) alone for airport trip:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/3230519.stm

11 year old left alone for 3 weeks during vacation:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2601747.stm

Scottish father fined for leaving 3 & 6 year old alone for 2 hours while he went to work:
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=695&id=666952006

Mother leaves 3 & 5 year old alone:
http://archive.theargus.co.uk/1999/10/15/196914.html

Mother leaves 2 & 4 year old alone while drinking wine with her boyfriend. Falls asleep & leaves kids overnight:
http://express.lineone.net/posts/view/14097/Mum+left+girls+aged+2+and+4+for+16+hours

Smythe was warned in police interviews that she could face up to 10 years in jail. She was also reminded of the case of missing four-year-old Madeleine McCann.

But she escaped with just a ­community punishment order after pleading guilty to causing cruelty to a child.

She was ordered to carry out 120 hours of unpaid work and to pay £50 costs.

The court heard how Smythe had been struggling to cope with the behaviour of her four-year-old daughter and was “at the end of her tether”.

After her arrest she wept in police interviews and insisted she only planned to leave her children for a “short term” and “did not think for one minute that they would be in any danger”.

Also, a personal note. When I was 3 or 4, we lived on the 3rd floor of an apt building. My mom had taken the carriage (one of the 60s large things, as opposed to the lighter strollers which came later) down stairs. I somehow locked the door so she was on the outside and I, along with my infant brother, was on the inside. First she tried to get me to unlock the door. When that failed, she literally broke the door open with her own strength. I thought for sure I was in trouble & ran off to our room humming the theme from Batman. Fortunately, she was just so relieved we were both ok, I wasn't in trouble. The point being, at that age, my mom not only was concerned for my well being, she was concerned I might try to pick up my brother and drop him (I'd previously tried to feed him a Ring Ding as a newborn because I'd been told to share & I thought it would be selfish just to have it by myself). I'm suprised the McCanns didn't have any concern about that with Madeline & the twins being alone together along those lines.

 

[BethInAK]

Even if it turns out that they had a hand in Madeleine's disappearance, I will continue to have empathy for them. I cannot imagine the type of darkness and confusion a person must be in to harm a child.

Thats truly kind hearted of you. I'm not sure I'm that big a person.

I totally have empathy for parents who accidentally injure or kill their child. Could happen to even the most careful parent.

However, if the McCanns injured or killed Madeleine, and then decided covering their own *advertiser censored**es was the most important thing to do, then I've lost all respect, empathy or consideration for them and their parenthood. If I hurt my child, the last thing I'd be thinking about is "ooh, I might get charged with neglect or abuse". I'd have a great deal more empathy for a parent who called an ambulance than one who hid their childs body. I try to imagine what sort of parent would first consider the ramifications to their own lives upon the accidental death of a child and I can only conclude that a very selfish person would do this.

And I'd also argue that only a very selfish person would leave toddlers unattended while they went out to dine with friends.

 

[browneyedgirl]

I, personally, feel that the father should face charges, just as the mother should, if they have in deed committed a crime. I always felt that Rusty Yates should have been charged, as well as Andrea, in the deaths of their 5 children. He knew she wsa mentally unstable and choose to believe her when she told him she'd be okay for the hour before his mother was due at their house.

I believe that if they (the McCann's) are found guilty, GM should be charged as well.

 

[browneyedgirl]

In agreement with other posters who feel the same that I did when Maddie's story first broke, I could not even fathom leaving any of my 3 sons alone for any reason especially just to go to dinner with friends. We just returned from a "family vacation" in FLorida and during the entire week, my children were with me and my husband. Our resort had all the up-to-date security, but, still it just doesn't "feel" right when they are out of your sight, even while they were sleeping.

On that note, I believe that they didn't worry about the children being up and running around because the children were sedated. That's one of the main reasons why I don't believe that the group often went to check on the children.

I also believe, after reading one of the threads here, that the community in which Maddie disappeared had never before this, heard of a missing child. I wish I could say that. That leads me to believe that it is an obviously safe town and this type of thing doesn't happen there so, why, if Maddie was abducted, did the perp then decide to take her? From what I've read on the townspeople, it's not their normal mode of thinking? So, from that I surmise that 1 of 2 things happened.....1) She was taken and it was pre-planned to happen or 2) they killed her and has hidden her somewhere....

Either way, Maddie is the ONLY victim here, IMHO:twocents: