Huckaby and the Arson Fires

[daisy.faithfull]

There are some interesting comments attached to the above article. One compares MH to Laurie Dann, the schoolhouse shooter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_Dann.

Deep, heavy sigh, shaking head, very heavy heart... you look at her picture, and like MH she doesn't look anyone to be afraid of.

I really zeroed in on the last part of that, where they were talking about changes that could be made in the system that might help to prevent these things from happening:

"The incident also created a debate about the criteria for committing mentally ill to mental health facilities against their will. Some favored the involuntary commitment of a person who was determined to be mentally ill and incapable of making informed decisions about treatment, while others, including civil libertarians, opposed the idea. "It would be a shame if we cut back on the civil liberties of literally millions of mentally ill people because of the occasional bizarre incident," said Benjamin Wolf, staff counsel for the ACLU of Illinois...
...Some criticized her psychiatrists and the police for not having identified the danger Dann posed, despite the clear signs available.[4] One of the drugs that Dann was taking, anafranil, generically known as clomipramine, was at the time not licensed.[1][13] The effect of this drug was considered as a possible cause, though this was ultimately ruled out.[14]
Others blamed the actions of her family in defending and protecting her in spite of signs of her deteriorating mental health.[4] The parents of the shooting victims sued the Wasserman family for damages."

The last two sentences could also be applied to another psycho b!tch... but the discussion got me to thinking about something JVM had brought up a couple nights ago. She wanted to discuss what changes could be made to stop someone like MH from hurting someone like Sandra, so that there could be a "Sandra's Law". The guests were for the most part stumped. I thought about starting a thread here but I wasn't sure if it would fly.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I'm wondering if that house was some kind of group home or residence for mentally ill people. Her housemate lived there for 12 years?? Was she a member of the family that owned the home, or just a boarder?

And then the part about "every girl who ended up in that house had a story" intrigues me. How many girls lived there during the 12 years the housemate was there? What kind of "stories" did they have??

When you're a normal person and you rent a room in a house, they don't speak of you "ending up" there. "Ending up" from where? All those girls through the years "ending up in that house"...

And the housemate "never detected any depression or craziness or any violent behavior." That's an odd thing to say, IMO. Was she expecting something along those lines, and surprised that MH seemed more normal?

I took the description of the house to mean what you thought, that it was a half-way house type of situation. I don't know if they have those for women who are not chemically addicted or what, but since the bottle didn't point directly to MH, I'm thinking that there were other young mothers there. Maybe it had some type of religious affiliations considering MH's family's background.

So, after making that inference when I heard that the other women had "stories" I understood it to mean they had a very street smart way of talking about their life without really sharing themselves with others. Ya know what I mean? Like, "Ya, ya, I've heard that story before!" type of thing.

That MH didn't have a story fits into the sheltered life that she had. If she didn't really relate with other people, she really, really didn't know how to even fake relate with the women she met here.

 

[daisy.faithfull]

Pyromania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromania
"Pyromania, a type of mania, is an impulse to deliberately start fires to relieve tension and typically includes feelings of gratification (like sex) or relief afterward. Pyromania is distinct from arson, and pyromaniacs are also distinct from those who start fires because of psychosis, for personal, monetary or political gain, or for acts of revenge. Pyromaniacs start fires to induce euphoria, and often tend to fixate on institutions of fire control like fire stations and firefighters."
Also indicates that this is rare disorder, not that many arsonists are actually pyromaniacs, most pyromaniac are male, and a study in '79 found that some have other mental illnesses going on in addition to the Pyromania. Wikipedia also threw this little fact in there: " Based on a survey of 9,282 Americans using the Diagnostic & Statistical Manual on Mental Disorders, 4th edition, impulse-control problems such as gambling, pyromania and compulsive shopping collectively affect 9% of the population."

Pyrophilia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrophilia
"Pyrophilia is a relatively uncommon paraphilia in which the patient derives gratification from fire and fire-starting activity. It is distinguished from pyromania by the gratification being of a sexual nature.
While the erotic focus immediately raises the diagnostic issue of pyromania, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV classifies this disorder as an impulse-control disorder, with nothing to indicate or suggest an overlap between this disorder and the paraphilias.
Other than the purposeful act of fire-setting itself, there is no mention of the possibility that the tension or affective arousal experienced before the act; the fascination with, interest in, or attraction to fire and its situational contexts (for example, paraphernalia, uses, consequences); or the pleasure, gratification, or relief when setting, witnessing, or participating in the aftermath of fires might be sexual in nature or even contain a sexual arousal component.
Some described cases of pyrophilia do not include behaviors commonly associated with pyromania, such as being a regular “watcher” at fires in his neighbourhood; setting off false alarms; deriving pleasure from institutions, equipment, and personnel associated with fire, spending time at the local fire station, setting fires in order to be affiliated with the fire department; and either showing indifference to the consequences to life and property caused by the fire or deriving satisfaction from the resulting destruction of property. Sexual gratification need not involve actual fire; arousal or masturbatory aids may include fantasies or talk of setting a fire. In other instances, the patient may derive arousal primarily from setting or watching their fire."
Wikipedia says that psycs don't really make this diagnosis and they're not really sure if it is a diagnosis.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The article sounds like the letter was threatening Ms. Loyd since the note was found in her window. I wonder what the note said, how much damage was done with the two fires, if Ms. Loyd lost all her belongings or had trouble getting insurance coverage since she was suspected. How evil. The note proves there was definitely no accidental fire.

I don't know about individual damage but the article said the two fires caused over $90,000 in damages.

imo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I took the description of the house to mean what you thought, that it was a half-way house type of situation. I don't know if they have those for women who are not chemically addicted or what, but since the bottle didn't point directly to MH, I'm thinking that there were other young mothers there. Maybe it had some type of religious affiliations considering MH's family's background.

So, after making that inference when I heard that the other women had "stories" I understood it to mean they had a very street smart way of talking about their life without really sharing themselves with others. Ya know what I mean? Like, "Ya, ya, I've heard that story before!" type of thing.

That MH didn't have a story fits into the sheltered life that she had. If she didn't really relate with other people, she really, really didn't know how to even fake relate with the women she met here.

Now that you mentioned it.......it could have been some type of halfway house although didn't the one lady say she had lived there for 12 years? Just by looking at the photo though it looked like a very nice residential home.

I took it to mean that everyone had a life story and talked about their life and what had happened in it over the years but MH was secretive and did not divulge any of her secrets.

imo

 

[nursebeeme]

The cbs interview I watched with LE in the town where the fires happened (sorry will have to go look for the link again) said that Melissa is the "suspect" so this arson case does not sound like it is dropped... this interview was done just before the gag order...

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The cbs interview I watched with LE in the town where the fires happened (sorry will have to go look for the link again) said that Melissa is the "suspect" so this arson case does not sound like it is dropped... this interview was done just before the gag order...

I think you are right, beeme.

I think they will drop the case for now since murder/kidnapping/rape and lewd and lascivious charges trump any arson case but they will watch the outcome of this case and they can go back and charge her with arson after this main trial is over with concerning Sandra, if they choose.

imo

 

[Kat]

I just wanted to drop this snippet here:

GRACE: To Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author of "Love Prescription."

Dr. Gardere, the psyche of an arsonist is different in my experience from any other criminal. Explain.

GARDERE: Well, these are people who have an extreme amount of rage, and when they set fires they seem to sit back and watch how objects or homes or whatever are being destroyed and they get a lot of excitement out of it because this is their way of striking back at a society that they feel has taken advantage of them.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0904/22/ng.01.html

 

[SuziQ]

IDK, the crime cases I've followed that had a past involving arson are usually commited by sociopath's who use fire to either cover up a crime or to collect on property and life insurance policies. Sociopath's also have a tendency to use fire to clean the slate, start over and get attention for themselves in the process. Fire seems to be very cathartic for them as they use it as a problem solver. I wish I had names and cases for you. Alot of women serial killers have arson events in their past that can be tied to stressors in their life, such as financial problems or pending divorce settlements. Fire and the following insurance payouts solve alot of the present problems they were experiencing and it allows them a clean start. These women didn't care a bit if their children, or anyone for that matter, were killed in the process. I don't see a financial gain for MH in this, but I bet the timing of the arsons was very convenient for her and benefited her somehow.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

IDK, the crime cases I've followed that had a past involving arson are usually committed by sociopath's who use fire to either cover up a crime or to collect on property and life insurance policies. Sociopath's also have a tendency to use fire to clean the slate, start over and get attention for themselves in the process. Fire seems to be very cathartic for them as they use it as a problem solver. I wish I had names and cases for you. Alot of women serial killers have arson events in their past that can be tied to stressors in their life, such as financial problems or pending divorce settlements. Fire and the following insurance payouts solve alot of the present problems they were experiencing and it allows them a clean start. These women didn't care a bit if their children, or anyone for that matter, were killed in the process. I don't see a financial gain for MH in this, but I bet the timing of the arsons was very convenient for her and benefited her somehow.

Some arsonists do it simply for the pleasure, power, rage and control they feel. That is why many of them will stay at the crime scene and watch "their work" with pride. I have read they love all the attention it brings with the firetrucks rushing to the scene or the news crew showing up. They certainly have to be sociopathic to do this imo.

imoo

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I think it is going to be used to show a pattern of criminal behavior in this case. Everything they can bring forward from her past will be useful in this respect. It shows her behaviors escalating and a wide range of criminal activity. While the defense will say it shows a mental defect of some sort, the prosecution can use it to show how she planned events and covered them up which shoots down the defense theory.

 

[SarahW]

Thanks to the fine young journalists at Tracy Press we now have a new article about Huckaby and the fires.

Huckaby linked to SoCal arson case

by Justin Lafferty
Wednesday April 22, 2009

Tidbits only, its a must read article. and the Tracy Press articles seem to disappear fairly quickly. Their server isn't big enough, I guess.

"Evelyn Lloyd, Huckaby’s roommate for eight months, said in a phone interview today from Southern California that police should look more closely at Huckaby’s involvement in the two fires that damaged the four-bedroom house they shared in La Palma."

"After the first fire, Lloyd said, police found a baby’s bottle with gasoline, a threatening letter and newspapers stuffed in the side window of her first-story room."

The previous article said Huckaby had lived there four months, this one says eight months which is a much more significant amount of time, imo.

MH likes to write notes to deflect suspicion from herself. IMO.

 

[SarahW]

Some arsonists do it simply for the pleasure, power, rage and control they feel. That is why many of them will stay at the crime scene and watch "their work" with pride. I have read they love all the attention it brings with the firetrucks rushing to the scene or the news crew showing up. They certainly have to be sociopathic to do this imo.

imoo

Mh did seem to enjoy the drama and excitement of it all; all caused by "her work". That may not be Munchausen's, but it strikes me as "munchausy".

 

[SarahW]

IDK, the crime cases I've followed that had a past involving arson are usually commited by sociopath's who use fire to either cover up a crime or to collect on property and life insurance policies. Sociopath's also have a tendency to use fire to clean the slate, start over and get attention for themselves in the process. Fire seems to be very cathartic for them as they use it as a problem solver. I wish I had names and cases for you. Alot of women serial killers have arson events in their past that can be tied to stressors in their life, such as financial problems or pending divorce settlements. Fire and the following insurance payouts solve alot of the present problems they were experiencing and it allows them a clean start. These women didn't care a bit if their children, or anyone for that matter, were killed in the process. I don't see a financial gain for MH in this, but I bet the timing of the arsons was very convenient for her and benefited her somehow.

I wonder if there are other fires in her past, within the circles she has run in, the places she has inhabited or worked.

 

[SuziQ]

I wonder if there are other fires in her past, within the circles she has run in, the places she has inhabited or worked.

ITA. Reading everyone's great thoughts in this thread is rather creeping me out this morning. I'm left feeling that between the arsons and the alleged poisonings, MH was a classic revenge killer in the making. You cross her and she'll get back at you.

MH will be a case study for sure.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/widows/2.html

(snip and overall good article at the above link)
Revenge Killers are typically obsession-driven; hate or love or jealousy are the most common factors. They are as rare as sexual predators but, when pushed, they strike with a vengeance. While many female killers are usually much younger — the average age is mid-20s to early 30s — Martha Wise of Ohio committed her crimes at the age of forty. A spinster when she found her true love, she was overjoyed. But, her family objected to her choice, as did her minister. (Her beau, Walter Johns, was a much younger man.) In revenge, she fed three of the more vocal family members a deadly dose of cyanide and torched the church. When apprehended and her crimes became public knowledge, the press dubbed her "Lady Borgia of America" after the infamous Italian noblewoman whose actions she emulated. Wise told the judge that the devil made her do it, but the State of Ohio, being unable to catch the devil, threw the total blame on her and locked her away for life.

 

[gitana1]

Mh did seem to enjoy the drama and excitement of it all; all caused by "her work". That may not be Munchausen's, but it strikes me as "munchausy".

Yeah, I think the kind of classic arsonist OceanBlueEyes described above, excited by the destruction, filled with rage and wanting power/attention, shares some characteristics with a person with one of the Munchausen's type disorders. A lot of these problems seem to share a rage aspect, desire to dominate and/or have power, to get attention, etc. But especially, a complete disregard for human life.

 

[SuziQ]

Yeah, I think the kind of classic arsonist OceanBlueEyes described above, excited by the destruction, filled with rage and wanting power/attention, shares some characteristics with a person with one of the Munchausen's type disorders. A lot of these problems seem to share a rage aspect, desire to dominate and/or have power, to get attention, etc. But especially, a complete disregard for human life.

All of what you stated combined with the innocent mask of being a woman....how scary. You wouldn't see one coming at you until it's too late.

 

[Cherokee]

Interesting part in the article bolded:

After the first fire, Lloyd said, police found a baby’s bottle with gasoline, a threatening letter and newspapers stuffed in the side window of her first-story room.

LE needs to do some handwriting analysis on that letter along with the note MH wrote in the Cantu case in addition to exemplars from MH's other known writings.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Originally posted by SuziQ:

Wise told the judge that the devil made her do it, but the State of Ohio, being unable to catch the devil, threw the total blame on her and locked her away for life.

Hahahahaha~ I can see this coming into play with MH. Just sayin...

 

[SuziQ]

Hahahahaha~ I can see this coming into play with MH. Just sayin...

Lol, that cracked me up too. I had to wonder if that happens with an imaginary people defense as well.....