Human Remains (*cadaver) Detection (HRD) dog questions and answers **NO DISCUSSION**

Discussion in 'Lisa Irwin' started by nursebeeme, Oct 21, 2011.

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  1. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    That's a lot of tape, a variety of different containment materials, and likely a LOT of scent transfer.
    Substrate, blanket or towel, tape dispenser, tape, second bag, tape dispenser, tape, third container, tape dispenser, tape etc. Then not to mention vehicle transfer. Door handle, substrate in vehicle, steering wheel, etc. So the timing of only a couple minutes wouldn't matter, because the dog would likely be alerting to scent transfer particles.
    Does that make any sense?

    Hope you feel better soon!
     


  2. RANCH

    RANCH Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I have to say that I admire your work and am amazed with the abilities of all working dogs. I hope that you can answer norest4thewickeds question to his/her satisfaction.
     
  3. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    You're very welcome. Transfer scent is a hot debate in the working dog world. I could link a couple of studies that explain the differences in scent particles, but they would probably put everyone to sleep, lol. It seems easiest to explain by using practical examples.
    Let's say you chop up a piece of garlic for dinner one night. Then you bring in a 'garlic-scent-trained working dog' to see where it alerts. It alerts on you, on your kitchen counter, on the knife you chopped with, on the sink, etc.
    But let's say somone walked into your house carrying a piece of garlic, didn't touch a thing, and then walked out. Your garlic-sniffing dog is going to catch the air scent...but not alert, because there's nothing to alert to.
    Wow, that's a terrible analogy, lol!
    But I hope it makes a little sense.
     
  4. norest4thewicked

    norest4thewicked Verified Expert

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    Thank you! It is just a theory that I had that included DB doing everything herself with no help. Do we know for a fact that both family vehicles and JI's work vehicle was searched by HR dogs?

    I really appreciate all you do to help on these forums. It really helps those of us who aren't familiar and I know that your information is truly valuable to this forum. :)
     
  5. cityslick

    cityslick New Member

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    I'm pretty sure it's been reported that both the vehicles were searched by the dogs, don't know about the van though.
     
  6. madge

    madge New Member

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    Can a tracking dog only track the baby's scent (being alive I mean) and would a tracking dog know the baby was dead? What I'm trying to sort out is what if thewrong dogs were used in the beginning (thinking baby was alive/kidnapped? Cadavers brought in after body was moved elsewhere i.e. in the early morning hours the body was possibly overlooked since she was small and could be anywhere...the body was moved and the cadavers hit on the scent of where the body actually died vs hitting on where it could have been moved to. Am I making sense LOL

    I'm thinking now that maybe wicked is onto something with the tape ... remember the tape dispenser and the clikcing noises the kids say they heard? Remember all the plastic containers in the crib???

    Maybe the body was wrapped up in totes and disposed of by someone else. Maybe the body was at some one elses house during the original searches. Remember Jeremy went running to the neighbors home in the early get go.

    grrrrrrrrrr
     
  7. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    Trying to understand the question, so please clarify if I don't get it correct!
    A tracking or trailing dog follows a live scent. I think I mentioned awhile back that my first thought was- is Lisa walking yet? and if so it would be useful to gather a scent article and try to trail her outside of the home. Sadly, it wouldn't be the first time a baby wandered outside without anyone noticing. 10 months is pretty young, but some babies are pretty mobile at that point.
    So while I don't know which dogs were brought in at what point, it would make sense to me that tracking/trailing/area search dog(s) were initially used. If they were cross-trained in HRD, then they would know a live trail from HR scent (hopefully, anyway.)

    From that point, it seems likely that some piece of evidence lead investigators to think an HRD dog might be useful. That dog would only be looking for evidence of human decomp- in the air, on substrates, in water, underground, in trees and brush- everywhere. But since we don't know what types of dogs were used when... it's kind of a moot point.

    However, if a person died in one place (and an HRD dog alerted to that location) and then the person was moved, it is likely there was scent transfer. An HRD dog should alert to transfer scent. But they have to be brought to the area of interest in order to do so. So in other words, if a person died in one location and was moved to another- it depends on the amount of transfer to know which direction to head. If that makes any sense?

    This is why K9's are only one piece of a big puzzle. They are an investigative tool, that when combined with good old fashioned police work, often aid a missing person investigation. They can often say "Look! He went thataway!"
    But they need to be in the right place at the right time to do their job right. And much of that depends on the type of training the dog has had. HTH!
     
  8. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    There was a question on another thread that I thought I'd bring over here, asking about how or whether or not an HRD dog could 'hit' or alert on a living human being.
    I want to remind everyone, that's one of the reasons for the clarification of 'human remains detection' and not 'cadaver' dogs.

    Human remains are not necessarily entire bodies. Parts of humans can decompose while the human themself remains alive.
    Example- an accident causes a limb to be severed. The individual survives the accident, but the limb is lost. An HRD dog might be called in to try and locate the limb. An HRD dog should alert to the limb, but should not alert to the living individual involved in the accident.

    There are many ways that human decomp can be present, and not involve a death. So an HRD alert does not necessarily rule in or out whether a death has occured. Hope this helps with some questions.
     
  9. madge

    madge New Member

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    What if Baby Lisa crawled inside of a plastic bag/bin and smothered to death AND her body was never taken outside of the bin or bag itself. The body could have been wrapped up still inside the bin/tote but never removed from the tote. The only thing the dog might hit on would be the tape dispenser if tape was used to wrap up the body while it was inside the tote or the "area" where the tote sat???? If the tote was successfully removed before LE ever got to the house then the scent dogs would not have a live scent to track.

    There is a reason the dog hit, there is a reason the tape dispenser was taken as well. There is a reason LE wants to ask the parents more questions.

    LE has no reason to frame this couple. LE has no reason to focus in on them other than nagging questions like we have here.

    Did Jeremy take anything to the neighbors house with him I wonder, the neighbor has stuck to them like glue and JI just seems totally zoned out everytime I see him.

    Yeah, I'm rambling but it makes me wonder
     
  10. madge

    madge New Member

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    You gave the severed arm example, can you give us more?

    So are you saying that possibly the HRD hit was not on a dead Baby Lisa?

    I'm confused because I thought the HRD's only trained on the gases that the body gives off as it dies.
     
  11. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    BBM:
    Yes, I am saying there is a possibility the HRD alert was not on a decedent.
    Many human remains detection dogs are not only trained on gases dispersed when a body decomposes, but on other particles of decomposition.
    Maybe it would help to give an example of what many use as standardization for alerts in certification?

    Warning- graphic:
    -soil or other organic substrates where a body or body part has decomposed
    -clothing, cloth, paper, plastic, other porous material in contact with a decomposing body or body part
    -decomposing blood
    -tissue
    -bone with trace tissue attached
    -hair or teeth, combined with one of the above sources

    Does that help at all?
     
  12. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    I am kinda confused about the question. Can you clarify? TIA.
     
  13. madge

    madge New Member

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    Thanks Oriah!!!!

    In your examples above though on the HRD maybe not hitting on THE dead body istelf, but all of your examples point to a "decompsing" body.

    My previous question mainly was to substaniate that if Baby Lisa crawled inside of say a duffel bag, or some sort of plastic bag and smothered before anyone found her. If the body was never taken OUT of that bag but instead rolled up into other bags, all of those bags put over into another tote or duffel bag of some sort ... is it possible that not much transfer for the dog to hit on would be there. The reason the dog found only an "area" near the foot of the bed being because there wasn't a body really ever left "out" open but it was totally wraapped up from the very beginning so that cells shedding from her body would all be contained in the original bag she died in.

    Hope I'm making sense.
     
  14. cityslick

    cityslick New Member

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    Thank you for this. This is the main reason why those that are on the fence cannot find guilt simply based off the dog hit.
     
  15. Jacie Estes

    Jacie Estes Medical Marijuana Advocate

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    Thank you Oriah for all of your help in this thread.

    I just wanted to ask for a point of clarification. IF Lisa passed in the house, in the bed, there would be a loosening of bowels and bladder. It's not just a matter of 'flaking skin cells' but also fecal matter and urine. That is a lot of material to transfer, correct?
     
  16. Jacie Estes

    Jacie Estes Medical Marijuana Advocate

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    At the moment when the person/body dies there is a loosening of bowel and bladder. Kinda leaky and messy.
     
  17. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    Fecal matter, urine, and other bodily fluids that may be expressed at a time of death are not the same (scent discrimination-wise) as human remains decomp. Human decomp is based on cells that have already 'died' and are decomposing.
    In most cases, urine and fecal matter are not 'dead' cells, and an HRD dog should have been proofed off of them anyway (imvho). The chemistry is entirely different than decomposing 'dead' cells from a body.
     
  18. Oriah

    Oriah Verified Expert

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    BBM: It is always possible for there to be little or no transfer. Transfer scent particles are a very useful alert- by they are not always possible. There are a lot of variables involved.

    ETA: Fecal matter or urine etc would be something CSI or forensics should pick up on. Not HRD dogs.
     
  19. madge

    madge New Member

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    I believe the dog.
     
  20. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    someone send this post to joe t lol
     
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