Hungary - Camerawoman reporting on refugees filmed kicking children to the floor

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Mountaingazer

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So according to PL, in her words, she is the victim in this situation. Boo hoo.

She thought she was under attack by a man carrying a small child so stuck her foot out to trip the man - if I thought I was under attack by a man carrying a small child, I would run in the other direction. What was weighing her down?

Nice try PL - imo you had to know no one would believe you when you came up with this excuse. You're unemployed by your own despicable decision - and took your country down a notch or two in the process. Again, boo hoo.
Right! And what is her excuse for kicking small children, were they threatening to her as well?

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Woodland

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Under threat of attack was her excuse for her behavior - guess the kids she kicked fell into that category. Run, Petra, run!
 

zwiebel

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Someone translated Petra's Hungarian interview. It seems accurate with the google translation I did myself, but a lot better written so posting it here.

[video=twitter;642103925865336832]https://twitter.com/otmarianna/status/642103925865336832[/video]

Another link to one of the videos for anyone wanting to check out her version of events for themselves.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/migrant-cr...kicking-refugees-questioned-by-police-1519392
 

gitana1

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Petra Laszlo has given an interview. It's in Hungarian which I don't speak, but as far as I can make out she says she is shocked at what she did and shocked at what has happened to her. She also says she was scared as the refugees rushed towards her and didn't even notice they were children. Excerpts in the NY times say she says she's been the subject of a witchhunt and is not a heartless racist.

Laszlo also tells the reporter she is a single mom and is now unemployed.
Hungarian language
http://index.hu/belfold/2015/09/10/nem_kert_elnezest_de_megbanta_a_tettet_laszlo_petra/

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/12/world/europe/europe-migrant-crisis.html

She is facing minor charges of something that translates as 'truculence' but prosecutors say they are considering other charges. The latest refugee scandal out of Hungary is video showing hundreds of refugees in a pen, scrambling to catch small bags of food being thrown by police. Problems are being reported with the youngest and strongest refugees pushing their way onto the few buses and trains to Austria first, leaving women and children unable to get on, but the border seems to have been shut down again now, with no public transport between the two countries,I think.

Video at link:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34216883#?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


Yeah right. One doesn't go far out of their way to kick or trip people running by as a defensive action. If they had been running right into her, she wouldn't have needed to stretch her legs far, far out in order to catch the people running by.

It is crystal clear that this monster wasn't operating due to fear, but rather, a sense of bigoted righteousness. The police were trying to stop the people running from them and this woman was trying to prevent them from getting away. It's as clear as that.

She and her kind do not want these desperate immigrants traipsing through their country. Such horrible people, I know:

rtsfw6.jpg

http://www.businessinsider.com/syrian-refugee-kissing-his-son-2015-9

decd610bd16415ada53e01a9cace788f

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAUQjhxqFQoTCLfMuf2w8McCFUssiAodlBkANw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fuk.news.yahoo.com%2Fyoung-syrian-refugee-selflessly-offered-090326769.html&psig=AFQjCNGtYJIT_QGt7XaHNPEONzRQADzwIA&ust=1442109039108798

I am deeply ashamed by the lack of action by the UK, then what would I expect from a bunch of old etonions and former members of the bullingdon club

Well, ask how many refugees the UK is taking in. Then ask how many the US is accepting. And note the difference in size and resources of the two nations.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34171148
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/w...ion-to-accept-10000-syrian-refugees.html?_r=0

Curious What are the people fleeing from?

The Hungarians are not handling the influx of refugees trying to pass through their country, very well. They are herding the refugees into "camps", or more like holding areas where conditions are horrific and they aren't allowing them to leave:

Human Rights Watch said conditions were “abysmal” at the Röszke camp. “The detainees at Röszke are held in filthy, overcrowded conditions, hungry and lacking medical care,” said Peter Bouckaert, HRW Emergencies Director, citing video footage and interviews with people who had passed through the camp or were still there.

Hungarian police are investigating a video showing police in surgical masks throwing packs of sandwiches to refugees clamouring for food at a reception centre, as the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, claimed the country was facing “a rebellion by illegal migrants”. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/11/refugees-roszke-hungary-police-food-camp
(Video at link)

At the border post, which consisted of four white-washed concrete posts in the middle of farmland, there was no medical aid, no food, no water and no shelter for the refugees aside from the shade provided by a few bushes.

In 100F heat, two young Syrian women with six young children between them sat in front of a small blue tent as the toddlers played in the dirt.

People erected makeshift shelters with sticks and bits of plastic sheeting, or draped jackets and shirts over their heads to keep off the broiling sun.
“They’ve kept us here for six hours but they’ve given us no food and only a little water,” said Islam Khalili, 24.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-inhumanely-as-migration-crisis-worsens.html
 

K_Z

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Hungary has insisted it is trying to fulfil its obligations as an EU member and register all new arrivals, but its attempts to control the flow - such as building a fence along its border with Serbia and staging border protection exercises - have proved controversial.

Mr Orban has now warned that tougher immigration laws will take effect from 15 September and anyone crossing the border illegally could expect to be arrested.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34224999

I was in Budapest just a few weeks ago, just before the current crisis, and travelled and spent time across the north part of the country to several smaller cities on our way to Vienna.

One of the serious issues is that many of the refugees refuse to provide even their names, and have no identification documents. They refuse to be registered in Hungary. Hungary is not supposed to let them move on to any other country until that happens.

Most of the migrants/ refugees are healthy young men, from about age 18 to 40. There are some women and children, but not many. The migrants/ refugees don't really want to stay in Hungary (not much welfare available there), but instead desire to get to wealthier Vienna and Germany. Austria has by far the best welfare benefits.

Hungary is recovering from decades of oppression as an old communist eastern block country. They are becoming more prosperous, rebuilding crumbling infrastructure, restoring damage to historic sites, and economically trying to reach the first rung of the EU process to have their currency on the Euro. They still have their own currency-- the Forint, as does the Czech Republic, which has the Korun. Hungary is part of the EU, but not on the euro. Hungary is not a wealthy country. (And they already have a large population of Roma-- who prefer to be called gypsies, I discovered.)

Budapest is a very lovely city, the people are warm and friendly, and tourism is growing at about 6% per year. Budapest was much nicer than I expected-- society is very well organized, people are polite, most speak English, traffic obeys the rules, and you can even drink the tap water and flush the toilets. There is great concern on the part of the average Hungarians that the influx from their Serbian border will destroy all of the social and economic gains they have struggled so hard to achieve in the past 20 or so years. They are entitled to be deeply concerned about a deluge of illegals, even if some of them are fleeing oppression and could be called refugees. The EU is not helping Hungary at all with the crisis-- it's all up to Hungary to pay for all of the policing, feeding, registering, and documenting the refugees. With the abandonment of border controls in the EU, the magnitude of the crisis is only now being recognized, as some countries hastily restore the border controls. Really-- it was astonishing to me to see the huge prison-like, razor wire border crossing stations on the highways completely abandoned-- and we never had to even slow down or brake as we crossed borders.

And while we are on the subject, there are many very wealthy nations in the middle east that are not taking one single middle east refugee, nor contributing $$$$ to countries that are. I wonder why that is? Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, Dubai, etc.

Let's not "hate on" all of Hungary, because one stupid camera woman tripped a running refugee, ok?
 

K_Z

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Some info about European union border controls- the Schengen Treaty. I highly recommend reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
The UK and Ireland could not accept abolishing border controls, and were given a full opt-out from the area.

In essence, the UK doesn't have to follow the rules of the treaty. That's why they won't accept more undocumented migrants/ refugees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

The Dublin Regulation (Regulation No. 604/2013; sometimes the Dublin III Regulation; previously the Dublin II Regulation and Dublin Convention) is a European Union (EU) law that determines the EU Member State responsible to examine an application for asylum seekers seeking international protection under the Geneva Convention and the EU Qualification Directive, within the European Union. It is the cornerstone of the Dublin System, which consists of the Dublin Regulation and the EURODAC Regulation, which establishes a Europe-wide fingerprinting database for unauthorised entrants to the EU. The Dublin Regulation aims to “determine rapidly the Member State responsible [for an asylum claim]”[1] and provides for the transfer of an asylum seeker to that Member State. Usually, the responsible Member State will be the state through which the asylum seeker first entered the EU.


One of the principal aims of the Dublin Regulation is to prevent an applicant from submitting applications in multiple Member States. Another aim is to reduce the number of "orbiting" asylum seekers, who are shuttled from member state to member state. The country that the asylum seeker first applies for asylum is responsible for either accepting or rejecting asylum, and the seeker may not restart the process in another jurisdiction.

Partial suspension of the regulation during 2015 European migrant crisis[edit]

Main article: European migrant crisis

Under the Dublin Regulation, if a person that had filed for asylum in one EU country illegally crosses borders to another country, they shall be returned to the former. During the 2015 European migrant crisis, Hungary became overburdened by asylum applications to the point that it stopped on 23 June 2015 receiving back its applicants who later crossed the borders to other EU countries and were detained there.[23] On 24 August 2015, Germany decided to suspend the Dublin Regulation as regards Syrian refugees and to process their asylum applications directly itself.[24] On 2 September 2015, the Czech Republic also decided to defy the Dublin Regulation and to offer Syrian refugees who have already applied for asylum in other EU countries and who reach the country to either have their application processed in the Czech Republic (i.e. get asylum there) or to continue their journey elsewhere.[25] Other member states such as Hungary, Slovakia and Poland officially stated their denial to any possible revision or enlargement of the Dublin Regulation, specifically referring to the eventual introduction of new mandatory or permanent quotas for solidarity measures.[26]


http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/index_en.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ght-to-help-refugees_55f07309e4b03784e2777d15
 

K_Z

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http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/12/us-europe-migrants-idUSKCN0RA2HV20150912

Prime Minister Viktor Orban, a fiery populist who has framed the crisis as a battle to preserve Europe's prosperity and "Christian identity", angrily criticized the behavior of the mostly Muslim migrants who have been filling up central Budapest and disrupting traffic along roads running westward to Austria.

"They seized railway stations, rejected giving fingerprints, failed to cooperate and are unwilling to go to places where they would get food, water, accommodation and medical care ... They rebelled against Hungarian legal order," Orban told reporters.

Hungary is the same size (well, a little smaller) than the U.S. state of Indiana. Indiana has 6.6 million people; Hungary-- the entire country (before the influx of migrants) has just under 10 million; Budapest has 1.6 million or so.

On Friday the UNHCR said the number of people requiring relocation had now risen to 200,000.

Speaking in Prague, Steinmeier said the EU needed a "fair mechanism of redistribution of migrants (still coming)".

"This challenge cannot be borne by one country. We have to invoke European solidarity," he told a joint news conference with the foreign ministers of the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland - countries opposed to the EU's proposal for mandatory quotas.

Germany has come under fire from Orban and other east European leaders for opening its door to Syrian asylum seekers, saying such generosity will only encourage many more to come.

Denmark, which like Britain has opted out of EU rules on justice and home affairs, said on Friday it would not take part in the Commission's relocation scheme.

Earlier this week, Denmark shut off some traffic with Germany to curb refugees trying to reach Sweden, which remains much more welcoming than other Scandinavian countries, but later allowed them to travel through.

Finland said it would accept its two percent share of asylum seekers under the Commission plan but said it remained opposed to mandatory quotas and would cut benefits for refugees.

EU interior ministers are due to discuss the Commission proposals on Monday. If they fail to reach a deal on tackling the crisis, European Council chief Donald Tusk said on Friday he would call an extraordinary summit of EU leaders this month.

Many people in the U.S. and north America have no idea what the European migrant crisis even is about.

The issue with the camera woman is that this is the sum total of what many people know about the crisis. She shouldn't have tripped the migrant with the child. That was very mean. But that does not make all of Hungary heartless and cruel for being deeply concerned and upset about the effects of the illegal immigrant problem, nor does it make the migrants' actions blameless, and a noble pursuit. All of Europe is facing a terrible crisis, one that may crumble their economies, and strongly damage their social structures, IMO.
 

gitana1

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34224999

I was in Budapest just a few weeks ago, just before the current crisis, and travelled and spent time across the north part of the country to several smaller cities on our way to Vienna.
One of the serious issues is that many of the refugees refuse to provide even their names, and have no identification documents. They refuse to be registered in Hungary. Hungary is not supposed to let them move on to any other country until that happens. Most of the migrants/ refugees are healthy young men, from about age 18 to 40. There are some women and children, but not many. The migrants/ refugees don't really want to stay in Hungary (not much welfare available there), but instead desire to get to wealthier Vienna and Germany. Austria has by far the best welfare benefits. Hungary is recovering from decades of oppression as an old communist eastern block country. They are becoming more prosperous, rebuilding crumbling infrastructure, restoring damage to historic sites, and economically trying to reach the first rung of the EU process to have their currency on the Euro. They still have their own currency-- the Forint, as does the Czech Republic, which has the Korun. Hungary is part of the EU, but not on the euro. Hungary is not a wealthy country. (And they already have a large population of Roma-- who prefer to be called gypsies, I discovered.) Budapest is a very lovely city, the people are warm and friendly, and tourism is growing at about 6% per year. Budapest was much nicer than I expected-- society is very well organized, people are polite, most speak English, traffic obeys the rules, and you can even drink the tap water and flush the toilets. There is great concern on the part of the average Hungarians that the influx from their Serbian border will destroy all of the social and economic gains they have struggled so hard to achieve in the past 20 or so years. They are entitled to be deeply concerned about a deluge of illegals, even if some of them are fleeing oppression and could be called refugees. The EU is not helping Hungary at all with the crisis-- it's all up to Hungary to pay for all of the policing, feeding, registering, and documenting the refugees. With the abandonment of border controls in the EU, the magnitude of the crisis is only now being recognized, as some countries hastily restore the border controls. Really-- it was astonishing to me to see the huge prison-like, razor wire border crossing stations on the highways completely abandoned-- and we never had to even slow down or brake as we crossed borders. And while we are on the subject, there are many very wealthy nations in the middle east that are not taking one single middle east refugee, nor contributing $$$$ to countries that are. I wonder why that is? Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, Dubai, etc. Let's not "hate on" all of Hungary, because one stupid camera woman tripped a running refugee, ok?

Whoa! Oh no. It is absolutely untrue that we’re (read “me”) are hating on all of Hungary due to the actions of one camerawoman. I am speaking fact about what’s been recorded as occurring in a nation I have been following for decades. A trip as a money-spending foreigner may create a touristy impression of the “warm” citizens, but for Jews, Roma (my people) and refugees, the picture is and has been vastly different there for some time. There is zero doubt that this is a country with deeply held, historic, xenophobic and racist attitudes:

Facing criticism for erecting a razor-wire fence and forcibly moving people to camps, prime minister Viktor Orban says he is defending Europe's "Christian identity". Mr Orban said a quota system would serve as an "invitation" and the "moral human thing" to do is to make it clear refugees should not come to Europe.

Controversially, he specifically said Muslim refugees should not come to Hungary. Speaking in Brussels he said: "I think we have a right to decide that we do not want a large number of Muslim people in our country." On Friday he said: "Europe and European identity is rooted in Christianity...is it not worrying in itself that European Christianity is now barely able to keep Europe Christian? There is no alternative, and we have no option but to defend our borders."

A Council of Europe report in June looking at Hungary raised concerns over the "hatred and vitriol that Jews, homosexuals, Roma, migrants and other groups encounter." Traditionally the far-right in Hungary has focused racism towards Jews and gypsies, but the dramatic attempts by the Hungarian government to "deter" migrants is in keeping with the countries tendency towards protectionism - and puts on a show to far-right voters intent on rejecting change.

At a training session for the Magyar Nemzeti Garda (Hungarian National Guard) militia, its leader Joseph said: "We have a domestic problem that is the gypsy criminality and an external problem that is the Jew expansion." http://www.channel4.com/news/refugee-crisis-hungarys-problem-with-xenophobia

Migrants aren't welcome in Hungary. The government made that pretty clear with deeply leading questions in a national consultation. Sent out to 8 million citizens aged 18 or older, the survey asks Hungarians whether they think that refugees should be deported, locked up or sentenced to forced labor during their stay in Hungary. That's just one recent example of the right-wing government's attitude toward migrants.Refugees have an especially hard time in Hungary.

Now, the Council of Europe has published a report that strongly criticizes widespread racism in Hungary.
The authors, from the Council's European Commission Against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI), emphasize that not only is the radical nationalist Jobbik, the third-largest party in Hungary's parliament, to blame for the country's xenophobic atmosphere - the entire political spectrum shares in the guilt. http://www.dw.com/en/eu-report-finds-rampant-racism-xenophobia-in-hungary/a-18505689

Right-wing Extremism in Hungary

Main actor of right-wing extremism in Hungary is the Jobbik party, which won about 15 per cent of the votes in the European elections of 2009 as well as in the general elections of 2010. Being the third party in Hungarian Parliament, it broadly suc-ceeded in its agenda setting. Ruling Fidesz party of Prime Minister Orban took over several bullet points of the Jobbik extremist party programme and adopted them as part of the government’s policy. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...gSkYZc_lvegSIIQkDaYsmA&bvm=bv.102537793,d.eXY

In Hungary the success of the far right is to a large extent due to their effective exploitation of Roma issues. The first electoral success for Jobbik (Hungary’s main far right party) came in the European elections in 2009; a year later they captured 16% of the vote in parliamentary elections in Hungary. At the same time a growing number of extra-parliamentary and sometimes paramilitary groups have also become active, some with close links to Jobbik. Support for the radical right doubled between 2002 and 2009. There are numerous factors behind the rapid rise and success of the far right in Hungary: mistrust toward democratic institutions, the state, and politics in general. Xenophobic attitudes rooted in the dominant definition of the Hungarian nation as mono-cultural and mono-ethnic can also be viewed as a determinant (but also as an effect) of the rise of the extreme right. https://cps.ceu.edu/publications/policy-briefs/rise-of-extreme-right-hungary-and-roma-question-2012
Nationalism in Hungary can be traced back to the Hungarian Revolution of 1848, which involved a romantic vision of nationalism found in many European states. After the Austro-Hungarian Empire was destroyed in World War I, a new form of nationalism that mixed irredentist ideas with racial principles emerged, linking the philosophy to authoritarian and extreme right-wing political positions.

The new doctrine included three core tenets. The first involved the defense of "Greater Hungary," including regions that formerly belonged to the Kingdom of Hungary, and the rejection of the Treaty of Trianon — the peace agreement signed at the end of World War I that redefined Hungary's borders and shrunk the country by two-thirds. The second tenet was anti-Semitism, an ideology that was manifest most fully under Hungary's pro-Nazi government during World War II and also rejected other Hungarian minorities, most notably the Roma. Third, the extreme right was stridently anti-communist, similar to other far-right movements in Europe at the time.

After the fall of communism in Hungary in 1989, the country's far right was represented most prominently by the Hungarian Justice and Life Party, which revolved mainly around Istvan Csurka, a writer and politician. The party lost relevance as its leader aged and was essentially replaced in the mid-2000s by Jobbik.

Anti-Roma rhetoric is central to Jobbik. Statistics vary, but an estimated 700,000 Gypsies live in Hungary, making them the country's largest minority group. Most Gypsies live in poverty, with roughly a third unemployed, and far-right politicians often blame them for many of Hungary's problems. To a large extent, Jobbik has emerged as a single-issue party, with the "Roma question" at the core of its platform.

For example, Jobbik is constantly denouncing "Gypsy crime" and organizing protests against the ethnic group. In 2007, the party created the Hungarian Guard, a vigilante organization that claimed to be restoring order in the country. Bands from the group, usually small but occasionally numbering in the hundreds, would patrol small towns in Hungary, especially rural villages, and threaten and intimidate local Gypsy populations. https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/far-right-nationalism-hungary
When I was a little girl, the mother of a classmate – Hungarians – came to kindergarten and started screaming about how the school was allowing the children to sing “Jew music” and she would not allow that. It was near Christmas and we sang Christmas songs and one Hanukah song. (It was the 70’s). That family was extremely racist. I learned from observation and research that racist ideologies were not at all unusual in Hungary.

Because half my family are “Gypsies” and my father was an activist for Roma causes, I have been exposed over the years to all the atrocities committed in Europe against Roma. Hungary has been an epicenter of much of that behavior.

As to what's happening with the rich gulf states and their response to the refugee crisis, does their failure to do enough mitigate the extremist, racist approach toward the migrants by the Hungarian government and citizenry?

In any event, while their response is not what it should be, by far, it is untrue that they aren't helping - and they certainly aren't putting them in camps, erecting razor wire to keep them out and kicking them:

Gulf officials and commentators reject the criticism, however, saying that their countries have generously funded humanitarian aid and that giving Syrians the ability to work is better than leaving them with nothing to do in economically struggling countries and squalid refugee camps.

“If it wasn’t for the Gulf states, you would expect these millions to be in a much more tragic state than they are,” said Abdulkhaleq Abdulla, a political science professor in the United Arab Emirates, which he said has taken in more than 160,000 Syrians in the last three years. “This finger-pointing at the Gulf that they are not doing anything, it is just not true.” http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/w...r-response-to-syrian-refugee-crisis.html?_r=0

The widely held opinion that Saudi Arabia, the biggest of the Gulf nations, hasn't taken in a single refugee may well be incorrect. Nabil Othman, acting regional representative to the Gulf region at the United Nations' refugee agency, UNHCR, told Bloomberg there were 500,000 Syrians in that country. Saudi Arabia, like all of the Gulf states, is not a signatory to the UN refugee convention, so these displaced people are not officially designated as refugees.http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-04/why-don-t-gulf-states-accept-more-refugees-

P.S., many of us do not have a simplistic view as you have insinuated, of the migrant crises, based on the actions of the one camerawoman. That's a bit insulting. Most people in the U.S. have been following this issue on their daily news and many also have quite a bit of knowledge about what's happening, why it's happening and the toil it's taking.

My people are from Europe. Most of my family lives there now (Spain and Netherlands). Immigration and it's effects is a hot topic among everyone I know in Europe, including all my family members who are adults. I am well aware of what's going on and the pressure and risks associated with it.
 

K_Z

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Let's set aside racism in the discussion, and just focus on issues of class-- or the practicalities of money, if that's more clear. As well as laws and treaties. That is a valid direction to take.

Europe is not the U.S. Why should these countries, like Hungary, NOT have the right to control illegal immigration at their borders, according to the treaty they ALL agreed to? And why should countries on the “edges” of the union of the wealthiest states bear the brunt of criticism and costs for controlling the deluge of poor and illegal immigrants?

Leaving racism out of the discussion, we can probably agree that this is an “economic migration”. This is a mass migration of poor people, with little to no education, no job skills, no documentation of their citizenship in their home country, who are flooding en masse into more wealthy countries. AND-- who are UNWILLING to cooperate and apply for asylum in the first EU country they end up in!

Some are fleeing persecution and war, but not all—most are “economic refugees” (another euphemism for illegal aliens). Absolutely they are looking for something better, and taking advantage of massing together in their migration—and they definitely want the handouts that come from being in the wealthiest European countries.

This is not controlled, legal immigration; it’s open border chaos. For many valid reasons, this mass of people are unlikely to ever assimilate, make permanent homes, work, and contribute taxes to the economy of ANY European country they “settle” in. They will be marginalized in ANY country in Europe they settle in.

Supporting these people for decades to come is not free, and I do think European countries have the right to decide how many of these people they are willing to fund and absorb.

They are not required to devastate their own economy or way of life for the citizens they already have. They have a responsibility to their own, legal citizens FIRST.

It would take probably 50- 75 years for enough assimilation to occur with this group of migrants that even a small proportion of new births would get an education, a job, and contribute to the tax base of the country. Some of their religious beliefs actually prevent the kind of assimilation that would eventually produce citizens who are educated, hold jobs, and pay taxes, and contribute to the country.

Europe (and Hungary in particular) already has a serious shortage of skilled jobs for the number of college graduates they produce-- so where is the money going to come from to support this mass of people for decades upon decades? Especially when the young, educated citizens and professionals continue to leave, in search of jobs?

The economies of any country that settles these migrants in large numbers WILL suffer and decline. That is the unwhitewashed reality. So now the EU is squabbling over how they will determine which countries should take a certain percentage of the migrants. And countries like the UK and Denmark never agreed to open borders, so they aren’t even part of the discussion.

BUT—given the commonality of language, social behavior, customs, and yes, religion, the migrants have a much greater chance of “assimilating” in a Middle Eastern country. And those countries have much more money than all of Europe combined. So you have to seriously ask why the migrants are not flooding over the borders into Saudia Arabia and other wealthy middle eastern countries? The answer is pretty obvious, IMO.

I might be an “ugly American”, but I’m not just a dumb tourist, either.
 

zwiebel

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Crisis in Europe? What crisis? Here in Germany where I live, and where we are welcoming so many refugees, we have: Plentiful, affordable housing
Great public transport and highways
Medical care for everyone, including the poorest
The lowest unemployment rate for young people in Europe
Low crime rates
Very good schools

I don't know why everyone presumes when refugees say they want to go to Germany to 'get money' they mean welfare - they're able to get jobs here, get trained and go to work in industries that have been wiped out in countries like England and US states like Detroit. And in the professions of course.

There is a quiet and growing crisis here though, as there is in Hungary and other European countries. Germany is trying to solve it, Hungary doesn't want to take the only option open - so one can only wish the country luck.

Many Eastern European countries are dying on their feet. Next year, Hungary expects its population to drop by 20 per cent. Women are choosing to have fewer babies, later. A top-heavy aging, non-working population with a shrinking number of young people to support them is leading to disaster. Many people in the former communist countries of Europe fled to the West when the wall came down in '89. Since then, there has been a steady exodus of the young skilled and unskilled from smaller towns to the cities where their only chance of a good job exists. There are wastelands out there in the sticks in many countries. Schools, hospitals and police departments close down because there isn't the population to support them. Germany is one of them too, but knows it. You can buy a huge house in the 'wastelands' here for a couple of months' wages.

The 'crisis' in places like Greece, Belgium, Spain and France is nothing to do with refugees, from what I've seen of living in some of these countries. Corrupt or inept governments and banking systems, along with over-inflated housing markets and strictly controlled markets caused their financial crisis. Refugees are just a drop in the ocean.

Greece was reduced to sending helicopters to spy on people with pools, to try and collect taxes. It is broke but its citizens can retire on a pension years earlier than German citizens, about the richest country in Europe.

Spain's put all its eggs into tourists and housing and has seen it collapse in a whirl of foreigners getting their holiday homes demolished because corrupt local officials issued illegal building permits, house prices collapsing and resorts being ruined because of overbuilding. It grows veg like no-one else though.

France is just a nightmare for anyone (including natives) to get ahead unless a person went to a particular school and is a complete closed shop - it takes about a gazillion years to just take a driving test through the allowed examiners there, and a person who tried to set up a fast-track company got shut down like a shot. That's why so many young French go-getters can be found in London, England. You don't have to know the mayor personally to get anywhere there.

Belgium can't even decide on a common language, is split in two with the separate little world of Brussels, full of foreigners in the middle - and almost ceased to exist as country a while back because it couldn't agree on a government.

Many in England just don't want anyone else because of the atrocious housing situation that is just getting worse and worse. I can't even hope to explain it, but I've been part of it and it's crazy and leaves young couples with little hope of ever having a secure home of their own or even a rented one.

There are huge problems in Europe but living right in the heart of it myself, I'm certain refugees are not the cause of it. I'll be happy if my little fading town fills to the brim with energetic refugees, even if I have to pay a bit more for a while to help them get on their feet. It would mean our supermarket, stores, dentist and doctor's won't close,and I'll be happy with that. It's horrible seeing shuttered stores and empty homes everywhere.

Europe needs young people. If we're not making them ourselves, we can only hope they arrive from elsewhere. My lovely (young, skilled) Hungarian emigrant neighbors here in Germany think the same. :)
 

zwiebel

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I wish people would stop complaining about Saudi Arabia not taking refugees as well. What young female Syrian refugee would want to go to a place where she is forbidden to drive, can't work, might get stoned to death or beheaded if she transgresses some rule and the males in her family have about zero chance of getting a decent job? (her chance of decent employment would be minus zero).

Refugees don't want to go there. I don't think we should be trying to force them there.
 

gitana1

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Let's set aside racism in the discussion, and just focus on issues of class-- or the practicalities of money, if that's more clear. As well as laws and treaties. That is a valid direction to take.

Europe is not the U.S. Why should these countries, like Hungary, NOT have the right to control illegal immigration at their borders, according to the treaty they ALL agreed to? And why should countries on the “edges” of the union of the wealthiest states bear the brunt of criticism and costs for controlling the deluge of poor and illegal immigrants?

Leaving racism out of the discussion, we can probably agree that this is an “economic migration”. This is a mass migration of poor people, with little to no education, no job skills, no documentation of their citizenship in their home country, who are flooding en masse into more wealthy countries. AND-- who are UNWILLING to cooperate and apply for asylum in the first EU country they end up in!

Some are fleeing persecution and war, but not all—most are “economic refugees” (another euphemism for illegal aliens). Absolutely they are looking for something better, and taking advantage of massing together in their migration—and they definitely want the handouts that come from being in the wealthiest European countries.

This is not controlled, legal immigration; it’s open border chaos. For many valid reasons, this mass of people are unlikely to ever assimilate, make permanent homes, work, and contribute taxes to the economy of ANY European country they “settle” in. They will be marginalized in ANY country in Europe they settle in.

Supporting these people for decades to come is not free, and I do think European countries have the right to decide how many of these people they are willing to fund and absorb.

They are not required to devastate their own economy or way of life for the citizens they already have. They have a responsibility to their own, legal citizens FIRST.

It would take probably 50- 75 years for enough assimilation to occur with this group of migrants that even a small proportion of new births would get an education, a job, and contribute to the tax base of the country. Some of their religious beliefs actually prevent the kind of assimilation that would eventually produce citizens who are educated, hold jobs, and pay taxes, and contribute to the country.

Europe (and Hungary in particular) already has a serious shortage of skilled jobs for the number of college graduates they produce-- so where is the money going to come from to support this mass of people for decades upon decades? Especially when the young, educated citizens and professionals continue to leave, in search of jobs?

The economies of any country that settles these migrants in large numbers WILL suffer and decline. That is the unwhitewashed reality. So now the EU is squabbling over how they will determine which countries should take a certain percentage of the migrants. And countries like the UK and Denmark never agreed to open borders, so they aren’t even part of the discussion.

BUT—given the commonality of language, social behavior, customs, and yes, religion, the migrants have a much greater chance of “assimilating” in a Middle Eastern country. And those countries have much more money than all of Europe combined. So you have to seriously ask why the migrants are not flooding over the borders into Saudia Arabia and other wealthy middle eastern countries? The answer is pretty obvious, IMO.

I might be an “ugly American”, but I’m not just a dumb tourist, either.

I'm sorry but why on earth would we leave racism out of it? That's the whole point. This woman worked for a far right party news agency in a nation where far right politics and attitudes have taken a strong foothold and which has a long entrenched history of nationalistic fervor and xenophobia. Which is precisely why this woman felt comfortable enough to act that way in front of dozens of cameras.

You do understand that Serbia, Greece, Macedonia, are equally as poor as Hungary, or more so and are also dealing with thousands of refugees flooding through? Yet they are not treating the refugees the way Hungary is? There's a reason for that.

Further, the refugees are not staying in Hungary, they aren't seeking to stay in Hungary. They are trying to pass through on their way west. But the president of Hungary has specifically decided he isn't going to allow it and will mistreat these people in order to protect a Christian Europe from non-Christian hordes, even though other nations like Germany are not asking for protection, are welcoming the refugees and actually need the labor.

This is not euphemism or theory. It's fact.

Moreover, I hope you're aware that Hungary is getting funds to help deal with the influx of refugees passing through?

Nope. This camera woman is not causing Hungary as a whole to be blamed for the plight of the refugees by ignorant people who know nothing about the complexities of this issue. Instead, she is a product of the system as a whole, she's a symptom of the problem. She's just one example among many of Hungary treating these refugees in an inhumane manner. Which is what I said from the beginning.

Finally, I never insinuated you are an "ugly American". Those are your words. It's the opposite really. I'm sure you're a lovely American and a great visitor to other nations. But you chose to challenge what I said based on people treating you well during a tourist trip and with the insinuations that I was being ignorant. Which feels pretty condescending.

But I don't make inflammatory statements and I don't state things as fact unless I can back them up.
 

Elley Mae

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Let's set aside racism in the discussion, and just focus on issues of class-- or the practicalities of money, if that's more clear. As well as laws and treaties. That is a valid direction to take.

Europe is not the U.S. Why should these countries, like Hungary, NOT have the right to control illegal immigration at their borders, according to the treaty they ALL agreed to? And why should countries on the “edges” of the union of the wealthiest states bear the brunt of criticism and costs for controlling the deluge of poor and illegal immigrants?

Leaving racism out of the discussion, we can probably agree that this is an “economic migration”. This is a mass migration of poor people, with little to no education, no job skills, no documentation of their citizenship in their home country, who are flooding en masse into more wealthy countries. AND-- who are UNWILLING to cooperate and apply for asylum in the first EU country they end up in!

Some are fleeing persecution and war, but not all—most are “economic refugees” (another euphemism for illegal aliens). Absolutely they are looking for something better, and taking advantage of massing together in their migration—and they definitely want the handouts that come from being in the wealthiest European countries.

This is not controlled, legal immigration; it’s open border chaos. For many valid reasons, this mass of people are unlikely to ever assimilate, make permanent homes, work, and contribute taxes to the economy of ANY European country they “settle” in. They will be marginalized in ANY country in Europe they settle in.

Supporting these people for decades to come is not free, and I do think European countries have the right to decide how many of these people they are willing to fund and absorb.

They are not required to devastate their own economy or way of life for the citizens they already have. They have a responsibility to their own, legal citizens FIRST.

It would take probably 50- 75 years for enough assimilation to occur with this group of migrants that even a small proportion of new births would get an education, a job, and contribute to the tax base of the country. Some of their religious beliefs actually prevent the kind of assimilation that would eventually produce citizens who are educated, hold jobs, and pay taxes, and contribute to the country.

Europe (and Hungary in particular) already has a serious shortage of skilled jobs for the number of college graduates they produce-- so where is the money going to come from to support this mass of people for decades upon decades? Especially when the young, educated citizens and professionals continue to leave, in search of jobs?

The economies of any country that settles these migrants in large numbers WILL suffer and decline. That is the unwhitewashed reality. So now the EU is squabbling over how they will determine which countries should take a certain percentage of the migrants. And countries like the UK and Denmark never agreed to open borders, so they aren’t even part of the discussion.

BUT—given the commonality of language, social behavior, customs, and yes, religion, the migrants have a much greater chance of “assimilating” in a Middle Eastern country. And those countries have much more money than all of Europe combined. So you have to seriously ask why the migrants are not flooding over the borders into Saudia Arabia and other wealthy middle eastern countries? The answer is pretty obvious, IMO.

I might be an “ugly American”, but I’m not just a dumb tourist, either.

bbm orange. This is a problem. jmo What's wrong with fixing why they are leaving in droves, either way it's going to cost and fixing it will be cheaper then absorbing the people. jmo And what about diseases?
 

human

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I always bristle at the terms of"them"" and "us". We are all human beings.
 

K_Z

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'We can't take any more!' Germany stops ALL trains from Austria as they reintroduce border controls and temporarily suspend Schengen Agreement

Germany’s open-door policy to refugees appeared to be unravelling tonight following the country's reinstatement of border controls to curb the overwhelming influx of migrants.

Europe’s top economy halted all trains from Austria and, in an historic move, temporarily suspended the open borders Schengen agreement in response to the arrival of tens of thousands of Syrian refugees in recent days.

The decision marks a dramatic shift away from the current abolishment of passport checks throughout Europe's Schengen zone.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rink-humanitarian-disaster.html#ixzz3lftGU3Pl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Lots of pictures at link.
 

KEVINinTO

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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rink-humanitarian-disaster.html#ixzz3lftGU3Pl
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Lots of pictures at link.

It was stupid of Merkel to even announce that Germany would accept 800,000 "refugee's". It made an already bad invasion ten times worse.

I notice from the pictures that most of the "refugees" are young single men of fighting age. Europe is already dealing with an epidemic of rapes against young girls committed by gangs of men like this!

It is unbelievable to see what is happening in Europe. The Europeans are committing a form of assisted suicide on a massive scale.
 

Montjoy

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Europe is already dealing with an epidemic of rapes against young girls committed by gangs of men like this!

rsbm

Do you have some source to confirm that there is an 'epidemic of rapes' being committed by Syrian refugees? Or is this just more race-baiting/Muslim-bashing?
 

KEVINinTO

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rsbm

Do you have some source to confirm that there is an 'epidemic of rapes' being committed by Syrian refugees? Or is this just more race-baiting/Muslim-bashing?

This has been widely reported. Just Google :

"rape epidemic Sweden"
"rape epidemic Europe"
"Rotherham grooming"


Daily-Mirror-front-page-2782014-Rotherham.jpg



I am surprised that you seem to be hearing about this for the first time. This problem has been going on for some time now.
 

Montjoy

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Those men are Pakistani. What on earth does that have to do with Syrian refugees?

(And for that matter -- would you be willing to paint all Pakistanis with the same brush for what those five did? If so, do you hold all Canadians, Torontonians, or Christians responsible for what five members of their respective groups do?)
 

KEVINinTO

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Those men are Pakistani. What on earth does that have to do with Syrian refugees?

BBM

The common denominator is religion! They are all adherents of the Religion of Peace™ Also are you aware that many of the so-called "Syrian" "refugees" are actually Pakistanis with fake passports?

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11509101



(And for that matter -- would you be willing to paint all Pakistanis with the same brush for what those five did? If so, do you hold all Canadians, Torontonians, or Christians responsible for what five members of their respective groups do?)

BBM

The case that I cited is just one of many! If you research the Rotherham scandal you will find that the child sex crimes were not confined to just these five men. There were many other similar cases involving gangs with similar backgrounds (if you get my drift). All of these crimes were initially hushed-up by the politically correct British police out of fear of being labeled "racist"!

Stop and think about this. If just these five men were responsible for the rape of over 1,400 female children imagine how big the scope of this problem is in the UK! (and the rest of Europe for that matter!)
 
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