I can't find a hole in this theory...

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by sandover, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. sandover

    sandover New Member

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    DocG, in one short blog post, has summed up his theory. Those who want more detail can examine his blog in depth. Try as I might, I cannot find a flaw in this theory, and in all my years of studying the case it is the only theory which makes psychological and practical sense. I'd like to dedicate this thread to anyone who would like to challenge this theory, because I believe we will only know if it is the likely scenario if it withstands the harshest challenges.

    http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/making-case.html
     
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  3. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    I spend a lot of time studying DocG theory. DocG is very intelligent and talented writer. He, like majority of us, strongly believes in his own theory. He has invested a lot of time and analytical deduction (some of them are brilliant!) in support of his theory and I'm full heartily applaud him for doing it. But, IMHO his theory has a lot of holes. Here is the list of the holes based on my opinion and known facts:

    - If JR original plan was to get rid of the JBR body then what was the purpose to wipe her off and redress?
    - If JR was the child molester then how this decease starts and stops? Yes, child molestation is a decease which cannot be controlled by molester. Child molestation performed by man 40 and older is NOT one-time/one-child occurrence;
    - If JR has wrote RN for the purpose to gain control of the time (dealing himself with 'kidnappers' without Patsy and Burke presence, scare Patsy to NOT call the police) then why write such a silly, long, not-convincing, not-scary assay? It didn't scare Patsy, right? She make 911 call anyway. It didn't scare anyone who did read this RN: even his own son (JAR) and JR friends were surprised of how stupid and childish this RN sounds. Forget about FBI! JR is smart, ruthless and coward man. And if he wanted to gain CONTROL - he knows how to do it. Regardless of the handwriting - RN was written in NOT JR style!;
    - Now, the most important part. As the fact, the time of JBR death (based on 'pineapple', rigor mortis and more) is between 11pm-1:00am. For the sake of the argument, let's say JBR death from strangulation happens at 1:00am on December 26. Based on Kolar book, the time between head blow and strangulation takes almost 1 1/2 hours. Again, for the sake of the argument, let's say 1 hour. So, JBR ordeal starts around midnight, correct? Patsy finds RN and called 911 at 5:52am. Means, JR has almost 6 hours (!!!!) to create his 'kidnapping' plan and perform the staging. In another word, to get control of the situation to achieve his main goal: GET RID OF JBR BODY. Please tell me, which part of the 'staging' or facts/evidences points to preparation to 'get rid of the body'? Please don't forget, JR has 6 hours to be ready! Did he placed the body inside of his car trunk or somekind of suitcase? Does JBR body was wrapped in the carpet ready to be transferred? No! Her body was nicely covered in HER blanket, with HER nightgown, with HER doll, cleaned and redressed! Such a lovely gesture's prior to trough-out/get rid of your own daughter body:)???!!! I don't think so...I cannot see how JR would be able to get rid of the body without be cought by FBI and police later on, right away. His car fibers would be all over JBR blanket, JR driving activities would be traced right away. So, the whole DocG theory toward JR plan to get rid of JBR body - holds no water for me.

    Otherwise, I like DocG analysis of the broken window and I LOVE his passion:)...
     
  4. sandover

    sandover New Member

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    Let me try to answer a few of your questions.

    - Redressing. Is it possible that JR was nervous that even if he dumped the body, it might be found one day, and he needed to limit suspicion being pointed at him, hence wiping and redressing...

    - There are some cases where traumas and changes in a person's environment awaken pathology in them. It's possible that Patsy's cancer and lack of interest in sex made JR vulnerable enough to seek out his own daughter for satisfaction. The lack of penile penetration indicates that he was very conflicted about molesting her -- perhaps he told himself initially that it was "just a finger" and as long as he didn't penetrate her with his penis, it wasn't really abuse. When these rationalizations failed and his guilt and fear crept in, he decided to kill her...

    - Is it not possible that JR was just not very good when it came to "performing" (that was Patsy's skill) and so the writing of the RN reveals someone not very good at making things up? In fact you could argue that Patsy would have written a much better RN since she was at one point an actress and had a great sense of her audiences...

    - Don't you think that JR spent a lot of time that morning panicking? It wouldn't surprise me if he was terrified of being "caught" either by Patsy or Burke if he tried to get the body in the car in the middle of the night (what if one of them woke up?)... I also assume he was nervous about doing all this in the dark and/or being seen if he turned on any lights -- neighbors could easily see into his windows. So he came up with the plan to keep the body in the basement, in a room neither Patsy nor Burke would go, then get them out of the house and go about his plan once morning came...
     
  5. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    Let me assure you that I'm RDI (not PDI, not BDI, not JDI:)....so, I'm very much 'open minded' to ANY logical resolution in this case. In addition, I strongly believe that JBR case has two main components: molestation and 'staging'. The 'head blow' is the link which tides these two. And each component/link has their own players.

    Now, let's go back to DocG theory.

    - I can accept your explanation in regards of cleaning/redressing;
    - I would never accept 'one-time' child (your OWN child!) molestation, especially by the man who has no problem to deal with other woman's. JR was/is pretty good on the woman-front:). He's more on business trips than at home, so he had options....;
    - RN style. This is a BIG for me. Every person has conscious and unconscious mind. And it's very-very hard (almost impossible!) to fool the unconscious one. I wouldn't go to psychoanalysis here. DocG hate me already for doing that:)...Nope, JR didn't write this RN. I'm 100% sure;
    - I'm sure (if JDI), JR was horrified. But would you agree that getting rid of the body is more convenient to do during the night, in the dark when no one knows about JBR 'kidnapping' yet than during the day when ALL his family and friends already knows about JBR disappearance??!!! DocG logic for this particular goal (write RN for the purpose to get rid of the body) - makes no sense to me. Sorry....:)....JMHO.

    Thank you for reply and lovely discussion!:)
     
  6. claudicici

    claudicici Active Member

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    I completely agree with Open Mind.
    The biggest hole in the theory is that the RN was written by Patsy.IMO I'm sure of it.It's not just the handwriting it also matches her personality.Noone can convince me that JR wrote that note.
     
  7. txsvicki

    txsvicki New Member

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    I think he was terrified of being accused of molestation and that's why the story of jonbenet having to be asleep and put to bed by patsy. There could have been a plan or hope that cops would run with kidnapping and never search the whole house. A hope to be able to leave the home and decomposition hide the vaginal trauma. Cops were suspicious early on so that plan would have apparently been abandoned to get it all over and done with and hire attorneys. The screw up in the ransom note could have kept them locked in the house with cops another 24 hours. Imo
     
  8. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    I believe docG has solved the mystery.

    But people will always find one thing more plausible than another, and there are your "holes".

    Some (well most) find it plausible that the Rs actually had a plan to let the police find both a body and a RN. If find that implausible. That has always been the biggest problem with this case, IMO. docG's theory explains the inconsistency.

    Most RDIs have considered that the original plan was to dump the body, because that's exactly what the RN seems to show us, and yet, because people have been unable to let go of joint operations theories, they can't quite make the next step and see that PR wasn't in on the plan and blew it to pieces by calling 911.

    Then there are those who actually believe the Rs implicated themselves in murder to cover for a 9 year old who was facing no charges. Implausible in the extreme, but those people will think everything is a hole because they have to have the Rs working together, and BDI seems to explain why they'd do that.
     
  9. sandover

    sandover New Member

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    For those who claim that the handwriting is clearly PR's...

    As a kind of "parlor trick" when I was a kid, I used to copy people's handwriting on the spot. All I needed to do was look at someone's handwriting and I could mimic it almost flawlessly.

    It is very possible that in disguising his handwriting, JR unconsciously "recreated" some of PR's handwriting. After all, he was trying to create handwriting that DID NOT LOOK LIKE HIS. To do that you have to have an idea of what someone else's handwriting looks like. The person whose handwriting he'd be most familiar with is PR's...

    In fact if you look at docg's site, you could argue that the handwriting on the RN is an interesting mix of JR and PR's handwriting styles at different times...

    For those who feel that PR's "over the top" personality is indicated in the RN, I would only say that even if you see her "psychological fingerprint" on the note, keep in mind that JR was married to PR and might have "picked up" her over-the-topness the way couples pick up each other's traits...

    If you believe PR was involved in the cover-up, suddenly there is a whole host of problems that literally cannot be gotten around. DocG's theory is the only one that actually makes sense. All you need is to open up your understanding of human psychology a little bit and it all fits together...
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Active Member

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    sandover,
    Which particular school of psychology will explain away JR and PR's fibers being found on JonBenet's person and at various locations in the wine-cellar and the basement, despite Patsy saying she never visited the basement that day or night?


    .
     
  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Active Member

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    docg,
    Its patently only meaningless because if correct your theory would be inconsistent.

    If your theory did not so comprehensively eliminate PR, I would not place so much emphasis upon the fibers.

    The fibers represent a potential hole in your theory. It does not prove that your theory is false, but they certainly do not contribute towards the either the consistency or soundness of your theory.


    .
     
  12. txsvicki

    txsvicki New Member

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    Don't forget the fibers under the tape on the legs/lips. That is harder to explain.
     
  13. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    LOL...I definitely will. Should I start now or should I wait until you'll write detail scenario of how JR thought to get rid of JBR body?:)....On serious note, the reference to the 'blanket' in the trunk of the car was kind of a 'matter of speech...The point I tried to make is that regardless of the blanket or something else in the trunk (like decomp hair, see Anthony case) - the 'get rid of death body' is not so simple. Especially, AFTER the 'kidnapping' of the child has been announced to so many people (with or without LE/FBI involved).

    By the way, why wouldn't you like my 'OpenMind' name???:)...I think it's cute:)....:fence:
     
  14. sandover

    sandover New Member

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    Fibers can be transferred so very easily. I love how people claim that the foreign DNA doesn't mean an intruder killed JB, but want to claim that PR's fibers on JB's body mean PR had something to do with it!
     
  15. Whaleshark

    Whaleshark New Member

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    Indeed.

    And since it is known that they wrote things together, perhaps we need to consider that not only did they write this RN together, but that they perhaps did literally write the RN together.

    I am like OpenMind, in that I am an RDI, but not committed to any theory, and consider all, including DocG and the JR theory... Definitely see his handwriting and things he would say. But alas, hers as well.

    But not only did they write things from the family together, that they put out, they also wrote DOI together, alternating speaking, storytelling, and their own perspectives. Their writings were often a combo of both of them.

    So perhaps the reason we have such adamant beliefs that for sure Patsy wrote it, no John wrote it... But it sounds mean and business-like, but it sounds feminine and over the top.... Is because it is simply all of the above.

    Perhaps they wrote it together.
    And perhaps they also wrote it together.

    Both authors.
    Both handwriting.
     
  16. Chrishope

    Chrishope New Member

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    I do see elements of both JR/PR handwriting in the RN. I don't go in much for feminine/masculine wording etc. so I'll leave that part alone.

    It is possible they wrote together, taking turns. It seems more likely to me one would write and the other either dictate or jump in from time to time with suggestions.

    But then we come back to the central question in doc's theory - if they worked together, why is there a RN and a body. There should be one, or the other, not both.
     
  17. txsvicki

    txsvicki New Member

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    Do you think the blood stained gown and white blanket might have originally been intended to be left behind but no body?
     
  18. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U New Member

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    Excellent question?! We finally comes to the main question, isn't? In my OpenMind opinion, because the 'staging' was done to cover-up the molestation by 'intruder/kidnapper/stranger/???...', to point the finger away from Ramsey's....and has absolutely nothing to do with the notion of 'getting rid of the body'! Ramsey loves their daughter. They 'didn't mean this to happen'. They want to have the 'proper burial'. It was very important to them. And yes, I do believe that both PR and JR were involved in 'staging'.
     
  19. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    It's the fact that Touch DNA is low grade since it could come from anyone at any time or for that matter from the hands of the victim if they had another person's skin cells on their hand(s).

    Fibers consistent with the garment Patsy wore the night JonBenet died are sourced to a known person on the scene and the fibers were found in incriminating places.

    It doesn't get much plainer than that. Including or excluding one piece of evidence and claiming it does or doesn't prove this, that or the other is disingenuous.
     
  20. BOESP

    BOESP Active Member

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    They are pieces of data that should be evaluated and correlated with other pieces of data or evaluated and set aside for now.

    The DNA isn't sourced to a known person. It is only one piece of exclusive evidence. Surely you don't believe six people, other than Ramsey family members, were in the house that night. That is a quite a variety of DNA to choose from unlike the fibers found which came only from someone in the house at the time of JonBenet's death and fibers from clothing worn that night. The Touch DNA is also quite possibly an artifact from an event not linked to JonBenet's death.

    Patsy and John lived in the house but since Patsy claims she neither changed JonBenet's underwear nor went to the basement, I find it highly unlikely (not impossible) that fibers consistent with Patsy's clothing worn the night JonBenet died ended up under tape applied to JonBenet's body, entwined in the ligature, and fibers from John were found on on the inner surface of her panties.

    Neither Touch DNA or fibers are primary evidence but the fibers ARE linked to someone with the means and opportunity to have killed JonBenet.

    We've cussed and discussed fibers and TDNA. I'm not married to any theory other than the Ramseys know/knew what happened at best and at worst one or both were involved in JonBenet's death and the cover-up.
     
  21. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    So who was going to make the ransom call to the house that morning so JR could go on his car ride and dump the body?
     

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