IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #19

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by nikkiw319, Jul 13, 2012.

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  1. SapphireSteel

    SapphireSteel New Member

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    Personally I have not seen these circumstances replicated in any other crime, ever.

    The closest we come is the two little sisters abducted from their front yard but even then, it was a roadside abduction and the girls were smaller and not on bikes.

    This plus the apparent planning involved leads me to believe the motive is not (primarily) sexual.


    :dunno:
     
  2. RNER

    RNER New Member

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    Have there been any recently? These examples were over 30 years ago when communication and surveillance technology and media coverage were very limited. IMOO...I would think it would be more difficult for a random pedophile/serial killer to abduct TWO girls at once today without someone knowing, hearing, seeing something!
     
  3. SapphireSteel

    SapphireSteel New Member

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    I agree.

    The way LE are releasing info though, they could well have and we just don't know about it.

    :banghead:
     
  4. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

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    BBM

    So because you don't agree with someone's theory, it's "wild"? I believe there are quite a few posters on here who believe this to be a planned abduction rather than a random abduction. Why is one theory wilder than another?

    Let's please get back on track and do something constructive rather than destructive, okay? Regardless of how it happened and who is right or wrong, someone took these two girls and we have no facts whatsoever to indicate who it is. JMO.
     
  5. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Aren`t children usually kidnapped during the day when they are out of sight of their parents or guardians, if only for a moment? When that happens, especially when it`s a random perp, it can take years to solve the crime ... at least that`s my impression.

    I fail to see how kidnapping Elizabeth intimidates anyone. Kidnapping Lyric wouldn`t intimidate anyone either.
     
  6. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    I was referring to the suggestion that Elizabeth was abducted in connection with meth collateral. I can`t connect that theory to any of the information that we know about the case.
     
  7. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

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    In regarding to my theory about the girls, there is no need to connect the abduction with meth collateral because I never once indicated there was a connection.

    I'm afraid you interpreted my comments to mean I suspect someone connected to Lyric's side of the family. I did not say that and, IMO, I made it clear that anyone (trusted friend, church member, etc) could have taken the girls. No mention of meth at all.

    Since you don't agree with my theory, perhaps you would like to share yours. Who knows, maybe you'll point out something that I haven't considered.

    ETA: I agree with many of your posts, so we can't really be all that far apart, IMO.
     
  8. SouthernMom

    SouthernMom Well-Known Member

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    Joseph Duncan, III did it twice before he was caught. First were Sammiejo White, 11 yrs old, and Carmen Cubias, 9 yrs old.
    Then he kidnapped Shasta and Dylan Groene. In the second instance, Dylan was a boy and there was more planning that went into the abduction, along with the murder of the family. However, in both instances no one had a clue and there were no witnesses. Getting caught with Shasta is what led to his being charged with Anthony Martinez' murder and being a most likely suspect in the cases of Sammiejo and Carmen. Sadly he may never be charged with those murders.

    Edited to add: Jet, as he likes to refer to himself, blogs from prison and has a following. This could very well be someone who wants to follow in his footsteps.
     
  9. hambirg

    hambirg New Member

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    My deepest condolences . . . . :floorlaugh:
     
  10. Sunlight

    Sunlight New Member

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    Personally, I think the perp(s) may get caught precisely because of poor planning and not taking into account things like cctv cameras, which is why I think the abduction is one of a perverse nature. MOO
     
  11. GrainneDhu

    GrainneDhu Verified Expert

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    Keep in mind that, technically, no one has to prove their innocence at trial and, in fact, it's impossible to prove a negative. The prosecutor must prove the defendant guilty.

    The prosecutor cannot bring up anyone who is not directly implicated in the charges brought against DM unless he takes the stand. So just knowing Joe BigDealer is not enough; the prosecutor would have to prove that Joe BigDealer was directly involved in the acts that DM has been charged with.

    Trying to prove one's own innocence by implicating others only works on Perry Mason; in the real world, it is exceptionally difficult to implicate someone else without also admitting to being an accomplice or an accomplice after the fact. "Joe BigDealer did it and I know because I saw him" then begs the question "why didn't you report it to the police at the time?" It's not a viable defence and only an incompetent lawyer would suggest it or condone it.

    I have no way to know what the terms of the plea bargain were but to get that much reduction of jail time (from 40 years down to 5 in prison and 5 on parole), typically the defendant has to agree to testify against other potential defendants. Such good plea deals are usually only available to someone whose testimony would provide the evidence needed to bring a charge in a case or cases where there isn't enough evidence to bring charges without it.

    The above is based on what I have seen happening in Iowa in many other drug cases.
     
  12. cindersoot

    cindersoot Mom to furry kids.

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    Otto, I totally agree with you. I don't think this case has anything to do with meth.
     
  13. GrainneDhu

    GrainneDhu Verified Expert

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    If DM's lawyer is even semi-competent, DM will never testify at his own trial (very few defendants do and it's generally considered a very bad idea when a defendant insists upon doing so).

    I just don't see how DM could implicate anyone else if he goes to trial. It's not a viable defence. Saying "I know someone did this illegal thing" only proves that the person so testifying was an accomplice after the fact (and therefore just as guilty as the perp).

    While DM's lawyer had undoubtedly made a proffer that implicated others for the plea bargain, the proffer is useless without DM's testimony in court. It can't be used in court, it can't even be used as the basis for reasonable cause to get a search warrant.
     
  14. Considering

    Considering Well-Known Member

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    Looks like I'm back to my original theory on the abduction. I had started thinking they were kidnapped closer to Elizabeth's house, but now I'm back at the lake as the abduction site.
     
  15. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

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    Since my theory doesn't mention anything about meth, do you agree think it is possible that someone known to at least one of the two girls, and trusted by their family, could have planned and carried out this abduction?

    I'd like to hear theories from people who think this was not an abduction by someone trusted by the immediate family of one of the girls. Do you think is a planned abduction, but not by someone the family knew? Do you think it is random?

    Not directed just to you cindersoot, I'd really like to know what others are thinking. We all have the same basic facts, so it would be interesting to see how differently they can be interpreted, IMO.
     
  16. GrainneDhu

    GrainneDhu Verified Expert

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    The examples I chose were from my own memory of cases, backed up with a little googling. By necessity they're on the old side because a lot of my true crime reading is through books rather than msm reporting on current cases.

    If the perp had a weapon, abducting two girls together would not be more difficult than abducting one in the same spot. If by chance one of the girls did resist, we've seen a bunch of examples in these threads of what happens: the perp drives away. And is rarely caught.

    All it takes is being on the lookout for a pair of potential victims in a place unlikely to have cctv coverage.
     
  17. ktgirl

    ktgirl Verified College Instructor

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    I agree. A gun or other weapon could scare the girls into going with the perp without a fight. So could a number of ruses (come look at this kitten or some other ruse).
     
  18. RNER

    RNER New Member

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    I have 2 theories...one involving drug/meth associates, the other is an abduction by someone who befriended the girls, possibly known to the family, but definately known to the girls.

    I don't see a "snatch and grab", opportunistic, random, seize the moment-type pedophile taking TWO girls of this age on bicycles from a public trail. I would think there would be easier targets in the area...although they have managed to be "missing without a trace" for over 2 months!
     
  19. SouthernMom

    SouthernMom Well-Known Member

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    ITA My theory is that the perp was on the lookout for one victim and got two. I don't think it was ever planned to take two girls; this was a last minute change of plans and the perp could not resist the desire to commit this crime.
     
  20. RNER

    RNER New Member

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    So... by having this theory (myself included), it has to be purely coincidental that the abduction occured the day after Dan's court appearance and the family background has nothing to do with the abduction.
     
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