IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #34

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by bessie, Dec 10, 2012.

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  1. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    In Memory of Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook


    [​IMG]
    "Our hearts and prayers go out to the families and friends of those precious little girls. The Black Hawk County Sheriff's Office pledges vigilance in our pursuit of those responsible and will extend every resource to concluding this case so that justice may prevail."
    -Black Hawk County Sheriff Tony Thompson

    Posted by the Black Hawk County Sheriff's Office - December 10, 2012
    http://www.bhcso.org/
    http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/ev...cle_18411a90-cd32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html
    http://www.kwwl.com/story/19023342/evansdale-police-searching-for-two-missing-girls

    IA-Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 *Media/Maps/TmLne* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

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    Case Map by poster hollye

    Amandareckonwith's case archive

    Related: IA IA - Kathlynn Shepard, 15, Dayton, 20 May 2013 - abduction of 2 girls, 1 located - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

    and Hollye's Case Map

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  3. bessie

    bessie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    Please continue here.
     
  4. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    It looks like two comments that I added to the last thread detailing the location of the "white, boxy van" were lost from the end of the last thread. If anyone has time to search for the van details, locations and links again, I would appreciate it. I had planned to map out the locations and hopefully try to better understand the timeline and scenario with that information included.

    There was something about the van being seen on Arbutus between two bike trail signs ... maybe someone local knows where they are. I'm thinking somewhere between the East end of Arbutus and perhaps the Maiden Lane turnoff? The third tip related to the van being near, or next to, the woods.

    TIA

    I'm half wondering whether the children were abducted closer to the auction shop, but the 11:30-12:30 timeline of the van sighting doesn't work ... especially since the video time stamp is from about 12:15.

    Does anyone remember the exact time the Wilma last saw the children? I remember that there was some controversy about that time ... we know that the video timestamp was a little bit off, but I'm also wondering whether that actual time could still be a little fuzzy.

    I'm also wondering if someone knows the owner of the van, but hasn't come forward because the timing doesn't work ... that is, they believe that the owner was doing something else at the time of the abduction.
     
  5. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Part of me is also wondering how the cyclist's tip fits into the new information. We know that he was cycling the trails in the same area at the same time as the children. He must have seen the van as well. If he was at the location of the bikes at about 12:35-ish (don't remember the exact time anymore) and the van as parked next to the woods at that time ... I wonder why he didn't see anything.

    Is it possible that the 12:15 time is off, that the children were abducted with bikes, that the bikes were staged, that the children were subdued where the van was first seen, that the van then parked near the woods to deposit the bikes and that the cyclist came along 2 minutes after the van left?
     
  6. MzAlexis

    MzAlexis Member

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    Skeet, the truck in the video is a Dodge Ram pickup. IIRC, the witnesses described more of an older SUV such as a Ford Bronco, Chevy Suburban etc.
     
  7. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if it helps, but I believe LE stated it was a white boxy SUV, not a van. There was even mention of it being similar to a Bronco type vehicle. They were very specific as to state SUV and not a van...HOWEVER, several people have mentioned that some people when they turned the tip in may have confused a white van for an SUV or even an older truck with a topper.

    http://www.kwwl.com/story/22671327/2013/06/24/evansdale

    SBM

    Authorities on Monday morning said they have three separate witnesses who say they saw a white, older-model, full-size SUV-type vehicle -- similar to a Chevy Suburban or a Ford Bronco -- parked on Arbutus Avenue on July 13.

    I personally feel that LE is being very specific about their request in stating SUV by giving possible model types. IMO they are subtly excluding white vans because we all know there were multiple white minivan attempted abductions (including the gentleman they brought in for questioning at the gas station in the white van) that summer and they want to be able to distinguish tips of vans from the type of vehicle they are particularly interested in.
     
  8. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/17/ng.01.html

    SBM:
    This interview was aired on July 17th:

    And so it was at 11:30, they asked me if they could go for a short bike ride, and I said yes. And they`ve done this millions of times. And they`ve never, never went that far. I could go outside and yell their names, and they would eventually hear me.

    And this day, they just didn`t come back. And so Kelly (ph), Elizabeth`s brother, he`s 12 -- I hopped in my car because the dad came home, and I went searching Elk Run. We were down by Meyers Lake. We drove all over every little park and Evansdale, Elk Run, every mentionable place, downtown area. And we couldn`t find nobody.

    (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

    GRACE: Two little girls staying with their grandma ask to go to for a bike ride, a bike ride right in the middle of the summertime, broad daylight. What could be more innocent, more all-American than that?

    With me right now is the grandmother, Wylma Cook. Her two little granddaughters, 8 and 10, go for a bike ride. They have not been seen since. At this hour, a local -- Meyers Lake is being dredged and drained. So far, those efforts have revealed nothing. In fact, scent dogs start with the bikes and go away from the water.

    We are taking your calls. Out to Ms. Wylma Cook. Ms. Cook is the grandmother of 8-year-old Elizabeth and 10-year-old Lyric. Ms. Cook, you were taking me through that morning. So they asked to go and ride their bikes, and that`s about what time?

    COOK: 11:30.

    GRACE: 11:30.


    ************************
    And also in this interview she states the same (they left at 11:30):

    http://www.desmoinesregister.com/Vi...wa-girls-Lyric-Cook-Morrissey-s-grandma-talks

    at the 0.30 mark she states that they left at 11:30, and at 12:30 when Heather came home they still weren't back.

    No mention whatsoever in either interviews that she herself saw them after they left.

    IMO people have projected that she saw them after they left when she mentioned that they always rode in the post office/parking lots when they rode and that the camera picked them up at that approx time.

    I refused to argue with people anymore about her last sighting because I have YET to find anywhere where she IN HER OWN WORDS stated that she saw them after 11:30.

    Now there are transcripts/interviews where Misty, Tammy, Heather etc. had thrown out times that are after 11:30 but I have yet to see/read Wylma herself state she saw them.


    :truce:
     
  9. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

    Here is an example of what I am speaking about:

    VELEZ-MITCHELL: Two young girls, 8 and 10, going for a bike ride on a Friday afternoon.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just like they vanished. Into nothing.

    UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s like they just vanished.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last place that I can tell you is where they were at is when grandma seen them at 12:15.


    But in THIS interview from July 16th Tammy states 11:30 again:

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

    BROUSSEAU: Absolutely. Absolutely. I feel in my heart that there are a lot of pedophiles that live in that area. Myers Lake is not a very large lake. It has the bike trail that runs around it.

    When my mother and I, the grandmother who was babysitting, when my mother and I went on our search for them, and this was at about a quarter to 3 -- and keep in mind the last they were seen was at 11:30 a.m., when they told mom they were going on the bike ride. So that is the last time they were for sure seen. And now, it`s going on to -- it`s getting close to being a quarter to 3.

    I think that one little line of interjection of Grandma seeing them at 12:15 is what is throwing some people into the "last seen by Grandma at 12:15" belief.
    :banghead:
     
  10. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    Tania Drew & Heather Collins 1 of 2 - YouTube

    In this interview at the 1:00 mark Heather describes the morning.

    She states that she got home at around 12:00 and that Grandma said they had "just left" for a bike ride.

    At around 1 they started to become worried etc. and at 1:20 she went looking for them.
     
  11. Aymstriss

    Aymstriss Member

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  12. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    I personally think they are referring to additional drug investigations that are going on...and with him and others testifying they are going to know what and who he narc'd out.

    That could get him killed in prison and they don't want the public to get ahold of who all they are investigating.

    If they are in the midst of bringing down a huge meth ring and they got him to talk because he's going to be behind bars for a very long time I think it's only fair that they do what they can to keep him alive in there.

    I hope he ratted out every single person he knows, if I'm being honest.


    I don't think it has anything to do with the girls investigation...and if it does...it would have to do with him dropping dirty during the investigation etc...
    JMO
     
  13. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Thank you! That really helps. Based on the grandmother's time of 11:30, the "boxy vehicle" between 11:30 and 12:30, the fact that the grandmother and a child were unable to find the girls anywhere, and the fact that the children were cycling West (rather than East - the shorter distance to the lake), I'm again questioning the possibility that the children were abducted near home.

    My next question relates to the camera. The auction manager changed the time of the video stamp based on his cell phone time, and police have since said that the sighting of the children was at about 12:15. I think the timestamp would be a point worth revisiting ... I think that police should examine that time stamp one more time ... triple check the accuracy of the timestamp.

    For example, if the timestamp was 30 minutes off, that changes everything. If the children were seen on video at 12:15 and the "boxy vehicle" was on Arbutus between 11:30 and 12:30, it's almost possible to exclude the "boxy vehicle" is involved. If the time was actually 11:45, everything falls into place with the "boxy vehicle" - including the cyclists tip about seeing the bikes on the trail ... was it 12:27 ?
     
  14. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    ***********
    I agree that things need to be re-visited as far as times go.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-io...deo-elizabeth-collins-lyric/story?id=16850676

    SBM
    The video also matches the police timeline. Investigators say the girls left the home to ride their bikes shortly after noon July 13. The camera's clock shows it was 12:11 p.m. when they rode by.

    See..this is where it gets hinky for me. Why are they reporting that "investigators say the girls left the home to ride their bikes shortly AFTER NOON July13th"? :banghead:

    Heather, Tammy, Wylma all say they left at 11:30!

    From Grandma's, Heather's, Tammy's, and Drew's interviews we know that Drew came home at noon. Heather said he was already there when she got there and so did everyone else. If those girls left on their bikes AFTER Drew was home we'd know it.

    Either "investigators" didn't actually SAY this, or investigators are following a timeline that doesn't match up to what everyone who was at the Collin's home that day is saying, or the reporter made up what investigators have said.

    Those girls did NOT leave after noon. :(

    Maybe LE is being vague and throwing out approx times because they are focused on mere MINTUES of opportunity and they want to keep it quiet.

    In this clip they don't mention the fact that the camera owner stated the video was 8 minutes slow from what his cell phone showed.

    Here is another story about the video:

    http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_c7394e3c-d6a6-11e1-a4f3-0019bb2963f4.html


    Almost the exact same article as the ABC one in the first paragraphs, but this one also references the timestamp difference.

    However, Pahl said the camera’s clock is eight minutes slower than his U.S. Cellular phone.

    ***********
    Adding the TG reference as it's in the same article:

    "About 4 p.m. the youngsters’ bikes and Collins’ purse were found on the south side of Meyers Lake. Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo, a bicyclist who said he often rides the Evansdale Nature Trail, has previously told The Courier he saw the two kids’ bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children."
     
  15. Aymstriss

    Aymstriss Member

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    This is not the first case where somebody narc'd in the sate of Iowa,however, there is no precedent set in Iowa regarding a ruling on having part of a sentencing hearing closed. This leads me to believe that there is more to the testimony than there usually is. JMO
     
  16. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    http://wcfcourier.com/search-contin...cle_5e0cbf3e-d0e7-5b87-81c3-b373f0140713.html


    This article states the girls were last seen at 12:15:

    In the care of their grandmother, Wilma Cook, the girls went bike riding Friday morning as they often do. They were last seen at about 12:15 p.m. Friday in downtown Evansdale behind Lederman's Big & Tall Clothing, 3524 Lafayette Road.
    When the cousins didn't return to the Collins home by 2 p.m. Friday, the family started to search for the girls to no avail. They called police about an hour later.

    And here again...we have this report stating that when they didn't return by 2pm the family started searching. :banghead:

    Grandma said she went out at 12:30 while Drew stayed home. Heather said she went out about 1:20.

    :( Good lord...it's just a mess.
     
  17. AmandaReckonwith

    AmandaReckonwith Defective Detective

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    I don't think the testimony has any details whatsoever about the girls' disappearance. I don't think Dan knows anything about it.

    However, it was his own Mom who blabbed that he narc'd when she was sitting at the lake waiting for it to be drained. This may have set into motion part of the other reasons for charges against Dan. I have no defense for methheads, but I do think the testimony is about drugs and others' involvement.

    Having something to do with the girls disappearance wouldn't likely get him harmed on the inside. But causing other dopers to be arrested and incarcerated sure would.
     
  18. AmandaReckonwith

    AmandaReckonwith Defective Detective

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    Keep in mind, 3ck... this is all from the news. Think how many times the reporters actually do the story correctly. I have no faith in it anymore.

    I don't have so much faith in LE either, but not because I think they're incompetent... far from it. They just have a really lucky perp. If someone found the girls within a few days or even weeks, we might have someone in jail.
     
  19. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    Thanks for posting the contradictory reports about the last time that the children were seen. There has always been a problem with the timeline when including the cylist's tip with the video timestamp. I was inclined to omit the cyclist's tip ... and given that police have never validated his tip ... it seems that they too might have omitted that tip. Today, with the timeline including the "boxy vehicle", I don't know what to think.

    I do wonder if properly sorting out the timeline would help.
     
  20. pearl

    pearl Member

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    I am thinking about the Iowa State Patrol airplane with forward-looking infrared capabilities that was used in the initial days of the search. First of all, I have no idea what type of plane this is or what it can do. Does anyone know how wide its search area was in looking for the girls? I know that distances are seeable from the air that are not on the ground so I am assuming the people in this plane could see farther than the ground searchers. Could this plane have caught something in the 7 Bridges area even though it was not the focus of the search area at that time? What I am thinking is something on the periphery (sp?) of the search. Does the plane record data? If so, could this data now be reviewed to look at the 7 Bridges area for the girls? I know this would be a long shot but could be worth looking into.
     
  21. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu New Member

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    That's an interesting idea. Overall, I tend to doubt that there was anything to see via FLIR because they were looking for two missing girls and it's clear that LE started treating the case as a possible double homicide right away. Had the operator seen anything that might have been a body or two bodies lying in an otherwise deserted area, I'm sure they would have checked it out.

    I saw a video clip on Youtube of a TV show a while back about forensics that included some information about forward looking infra-red. I've been searching both via Youtube and Google trying to find it again but can't find it.

    As I recall, the FLIR scan is not effective for as far as the human eye can see; it's only effective for a sort of elongated cone shape from the front of the plane and outside that area, stuff just blurs out.

    I'm trying to recall how far out it can effectively see but I really don't remember for sure. Less than 10 miles is as near as I can remember. I do remember being surprised that it wasn't effective for further out because in theory, FLIR can be used to guide a plane in zero visibility conditions, such as in fog, and a plane covers 10 miles in practically no time. I remember thinking "boy, I bet that's a white knuckle landing."

    FLIR only works if the object one is looking for is warmer than the environment. If the object is the same temperature as the environment, it won't be picked up. So once a body has cooled to the ambient temperature, it's invisible on FLIR.

    The data stream can be recorded for later analysis. In this situation, I don't know how long they store the recorded data.
     
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