Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

[Marilynilpa]

Well, one argument against it being a woman is that it is unusual for a woman to be involved in this sort of crime. Not completely unheard of but very unusual.

If LE did get DNA, I infer that it was male DNA because I'm absolutely certain that if they found female DNA, they'd hit the media ASAP with that info.

No match so far could also mean that the perp does have a criminal record but his DNA swab is caught in some state's backlog, waiting to be sequenced and recorded. In early 2014, the IADCI had 3000 DNA tests in their backlog.

Regarding the involvement of a woman, I feel it is possible. I don't believe a female planned to abduct and kill the girls, but I think she may have been involved in taking the girls not knowing what the true intent was. I'm pretty sure I talked about this many threads ago. This is not necessarily my opinion, but it is one I've considered for a while.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Sorry for the delay responding. I was down with a sinus/migraine for several days.

I was thinking of a Dean Corll sort of situation, with a younger boy bird-dogging for the older man, but your scenario of two boys egging each other on really fits this situation very well emotionally and psychologically.

In a way, if it is 2 perps I hope it is a Dean Corll situation. Two (more or less) equals are more likely to keep a secret than two partners with a large power imbalance between them.

 

[carbuff]

I don't really think there was a woman involved in planning or executing the crime, but I'll be surprised if there isn't a woman (wife, mother, grandmother...) involved in covering it up. Don't know why I think that. I guess I've been convinced for a long time that there's someone who is in a position to know who did it and is either in denial or too afraid or something to admit it.

 

[Ommmm]

I find it interesting no one has thought of a second perp as being a woman. Why couldn't it be a couple?

If they did find DNA at the scene (which is entirely possible), they can't get search warrants to test everyone. If it doesn't turn up in the data base then LE is pretty much at a standstill until it does or until they can get a sw to swab a POI/Suspect. No DNA match could only mean no past criminal history where they collect DNA not that the perp doesn't live in the area.

I have alway felt that this is why they launched the last "call if you know anyone who's ever been to Seven Bridges" campaign. That's casting such a wide net. I don't think they ever had any intention to "clear" every person who's ever been there. I they were looking for that one right person to call and provide justification for search warrant(s). JMO.

 

[carbuff]

That's a reasonable speculation based on the evidence.

 

[luckyseven]

I would bet every penny I have, as well as my life, that LE did obtain DNA from Seven Bridges....

I also think that LE has the perp's DNA, which could explain why they confidently ruled out Michael Klunder.

 

[luckyseven]

Has there ever been a thorough timeline composed for this case? I see that the amazing case map is listed in our opening post, but preliminary digging hasn't led me to a timeline. Can someone help me out?

 

[Copper]

Has there ever been a thorough timeline composed for this case? I see that the amazing case map is listed in our opening post, but preliminary digging hasn't led me to a timeline. Can someone help me out?

Unfortunately, a thorough timeline seems impossible at this point given the available information is both confused and confusing.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I have alway felt that this is why they launched the last "call if you know anyone who's ever been to Seven Bridges" campaign. That's casting such a wide net. I don't think they ever had any intention to "clear" every person who's ever been there. I they were looking for that one right person to call and provide justification for search warrant(s). JMO.

I think you could be correct there. I questioned such a wide net myself and wondered about the reasoning behind such a move. It would make sense if a partner knew and this would be a way out for them to give up the secret.

 

[carbuff]

Unfortunately, a thorough timeline seems impossible at this point given the available information is both confused and confusing.

I seem to recall that we've attempted several timelines but it always bogs down because so much of what we have is contradictory and we don't have any information at all about many key events.

 

[roseofsharon]

Has there ever been a thorough timeline composed for this case? I see that the amazing case map is listed in our opening post, but preliminary digging hasn't led me to a timeline. Can someone help me out?

We do know that the cctv at CA captured the girls riding on Brovan Blvd. at 12:11 p.m. (corrected time 12:19 p.m. according to CA manager JP). The girls were riding toward River Forest Road.

IIRC, WC said that she and her grandson left the Collins' home (driving) at 12:30 p.m. to look for the girls.

It's not a detailed timeline, but imo, I think this 11 minute window of time is very important to the case.

IMO

 

[Marilynilpa]

I seem to recall that we've attempted several timelines but it always bogs down because so much of what we have is contradictory and we don't have any information at all about many key events.

Right, every time I try to work out a timeline, something doesn't fit. IMO, the only confirmed time is the surveillance video.

 

[threecrazykids]

I am not sure if this has ever been posted, but if so, I apparently missed it. :blushing:

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_e1decc44-3f79-55a1-85f6-f26635373bb5.html

This gives the (almost) hour by hour timeline of events from the minute they were reported missing and the events that happened during those first few days.

One thing I noticed that potentially conflicts with some original MSM reports was the clearing of RSO's in the area. From this timeline, it appears they were interviewing RSO's as of 7pm that Friday night - and were STILL attempting to locate and interview those offenders the following Friday. Am I crazy or weren't there reports stating that RSO's were cleared within the first couple of days?:thinking: I know there were several of us questioning how quickly they claim to have cleared them.

It also appears that interviews and polygraphs were done almost daily as early as Saturday, and occurring daily for that first week.

Also - I notice that it states parents cell phones and computers were taken Saturday at 8am. But then on Sunday at 8am it states that again. So, does this mean that one set of parents were handed over, then the other? I would have thought that since both sets of parents were there in Evansdale during the searches they would have had both sets of phones if requested...but apparently not.
I can't seem to find the link where Misty was complaining about her phone being broken after police had it - not that it matters whose phones were taken first or second, I was just curious.

I also noticed that they were searching area dumpsters as of Saturday and also notifying the landfill of dump locations. It makes me wonder how confident they really were that the "passing of time isn't a concern" or if that is truly just standard protocol when someone goes missing. I am also curious as to why the holding pattern is for two weeks. Maybe that was just a base amount of time to start with...who knows.

I also see sewer lines were examined with cameras - that's also news to me.

A little clue may be given on Friday July 20th:
5 p.m., Focus turns fully to abduction as other causes were eliminated. :thinking:

I think this shows a better example of the many things that were going on outside of dragging Meyer's Lake. That was a great place to keep the media busy while they worked behind the scenes.

Anyone else see anything that pops up that we may have missed or that you weren't aware of?

 

[threecrazykids]

Just to clarify - I wasn't crazy lol

Post on July 16th 4:14 - Chris Essig from the Waterloo Courier posted: "All registered sex offenders in the area have been interviewed and they have all been cleared."

http://embed.scribblelive.com/Embed/v5.aspx?Id=52687&Page=11&ThemeId=2974

So there is a clear discrepancy there...Abben was telling MSM on the 16th they'd all been interviewed and cleared. The limited timeline shows they were still trying to locate and interview offenders 4 days after this PR...

 

[Grainne Dhu]

A little clue may be given on Friday July 20th:
5 p.m., Focus turns fully to abduction as other causes were eliminated. :thinking:

I think this shows a better example of the many things that were going on outside of dragging Meyer's Lake. That was a great place to keep the media busy while they worked behind the scenes.

\\

SBM

I remember posting at the time that the whole Meyer's Lake draining was basically catnip to keep the media anchored in one place and applauding the smarts of whoever it was who came up with the strategy. I still do; it bought them a window of close to a week to work elsewhere while the media sat around at Meyer's Lake. Very clever!

I think that line about "as other causes were eliminated" may be inferred to mean that the family was de facto cleared.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Just to clarify - I wasn't crazy lol

Post on July 16th 4:14 - Chris Essig from the Waterloo Courier posted: "All registered sex offenders in the area have been interviewed and they have all been cleared."

http://embed.scribblelive.com/Embed/v5.aspx?Id=52687&Page=11&ThemeId=2974

So there is a clear discrepancy there...Abben was telling MSM on the 16th they'd all been interviewed and cleared. The limited timeline shows they were still trying to locate and interview offenders 4 days after this PR...

I think it could have been a simple misunderstanding. Law enforcement was probably saying something along the lines of "we've interviewed SOs and cleared them" meaning that part of the task was done and the reporter took it to mean all of the SOs had been cleared. Didn't affect the investigation, just the reporting.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I had a thought last night about the seeming discrepancies between the area that Wylma, Drew and Heather said the girls were allowed to ride and where other witnesses actually saw them riding.

One explanation could be that they were pushing their boundaries, as some kids do. That may be, although they seemed a bit young for it, particularly Elizabeth who, at 8 years old, was at the prime of the rules making stage of development. Lyric, at 2 years older, may have been a bit ahead of the curve in pushing boundaries or she may have been closer to Elizabeth in development. Reports from various family members that the two girls squabbled constantly suggest that the two girls were roughly equal in development levels.

Another explanation could be that the adults just weren't watching. I find this difficult to believe as well, based on my observations of their behaviour afterwards.

My most recent thought: I think Lyric and particularly Elizabeth were highly social, highly friendly and trusting young girls. I don't think they were into boundary pushing but that they could lose track of their rules if they were talking or otherwise interacting with another person. If that were the case, then the adults in the families would not have been as vigilant as they would have been had the girls been routinely pushing boundaries.

So, much as it would have helped in constructing a timeline, when Wylma realised it was getting close to when she needed to leave but the girls weren't back yet, she didn't write down the time. I think she made a guess as to what time it was but it was a relational sort of guess: "close to 12:30 because I knew I needed to get everything picked up before 1 pm and I wouldn't have left much less than half an hour for picking up the house." Could have been earlier, could have been later; she had no way to know at the time that it would be important information.

And once the adults realised that it wasn't simply that the girls were chatting with a neighbour while forgetting to check in, panic took over and noting down exact times wasn't even in the top 100 of the priorities list.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

\\

SBM

I remember posting at the time that the whole Meyer's Lake draining was basically catnip to keep the media anchored in one place and applauding the smarts of whoever it was who came up with the strategy. I still do; it bought them a window of close to a week to work elsewhere while the media sat around at Meyer's Lake. Very clever!

I think that line about "as other causes were eliminated" may be inferred to mean that the family was de facto cleared.

Meyer's Lake had to be searched since the bikes were found there. It would have been seen as a huge mistake not to drain it so I don't see how it was done as any kind of ploy.

It isn't at all surprising other avenues of interest were taken while the search of the lake was ongoing. Why would they put all their time into one effort when they had so much at stake? At the time, they were hoping against hope to find the girls still alive.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Meyer's Lake had to be searched since the bikes were found there. It would have been seen as a huge mistake not to drain it so I don't see how it was done as any kind of ploy.

It isn't at all surprising other avenues of interest were taken while the search of the lake was ongoing. Why would they put all their time into one effort when they had so much at stake? At the time, they were hoping against hope to find the girls still alive.

Meyer's Lake had been thoroughly dragged, had cadaver dogs go over it and had one type of sonar go over it. Draining the entire lake wasn't necessary in order to know the girls weren't there. Plus there's the fact that Meyer's Lake is not a particularly deep lake, it was summer and in the middle of a heat spell, so had there been decomposing humans in there, the cadaver dogs would definitely have gotten a hit.

At the time, opinion on WS was that there was no way the girls were in there, so why were they wasting so much time and energy on fully draining it? Several people (myself included) pointed out that it wasn't much of a drain on resources, since all they had to do was station a deputy there 24/7 to keep people out of the water and turn on the pumps. There were a lot of people posting that it was a waste of time and resources, etc.

{shrug} Maybe you had to be there at the time.

 

[watcher9]

I see this thread has been moved to the Cold Cases forum.
I made me a bookmark so I wouldn't lose it.
***

I agree that Wylma's time was probably an approximate time, either because she just estimated or her clock was off by a few minutes.

I also believe that the bicyclist who spotted the girls' bikes was also a guesstimate.

The security video is the only apparent reliable time we have and even it had to be adjusted.

Here is two old links that talk about the video and the times.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-io...deo-elizabeth-collins-lyric/story?id=16850676

http://wcfcourier.com/news/evansdal...cle_c7394e3c-d6a6-11e1-a4f3-0019bb2963f4.html