Found Deceased IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #37

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by bessie, Jun 22, 2014.

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  1. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    Is anything being done by the police to publicly highlight they are still looking for the perpetrator of this terrible crime and what the FBI profile of that person is?

    I hate to think of the girls case sitting in a cold case filing cabinet and nothing being done about it.
     


  2. otto

    otto Verified Expert

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    It seems like one of those cases where it has to happen again before it can be solved.
     
  3. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    My personal theory is that TG innocently conflated events from 2 different occasions. He said that the nature trail was one of his usual routes, so he'd been there more than once. Conflating events is very common in eyewitness testimony and a person doing it will pass a polygraph because they truly believe that what they reported was what they actually saw.

    Elizabeth Loftus has done experiments that show how easily it can happen. For instance, people who had been to a Disney resort before were tested by viewing a number of advertisements for real things; researchers slipped in a fake ad for Bugs Bunny at a Disney resort. One third of those people later reported memories, some very detailed, of meeting Bugs Bunny while at Disney. They could not have; Bugs Bunny is a character owned by Warner Brothers and is not featured at Disney resorts.

    So, my theory is that TG neither lied nor saw the bicycles. He took two events from his memory and conflated them.
     
  4. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    I don't track the Waterloo Courier because it is a subscription site with only 10 free articles a month. Since I'm not that interested in northern Iowa, it's not worth the subscription price to me. However, I do subscribe to the Des Moines Register and the girls are mentioned either directly or in passing every few months. They are far from forgotten.
     
  5. gregjrichards

    gregjrichards Well-Known Member

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    I know it is very frustrating. I am surprised the perp doesn't appear to have attempted anything again and hasn't been linked to any other cases in the past yet. The perps behaviour doesn't fit the normal pattern of behaviour. You don't just wake up one morning and decide to kidnap and kill two girls the perp must have committed other crimes. I just wonder what forensic evidence if any they have from the perp(s) they might not have any due to how long the remains were exposed to the elements.

    I'm pleased the girl's case hasn't been forgotten it shouldn't be the police need to find out who did this. I'd imagine there is still fear in the community and that is understandable. It makes you angry that whoever did this is free to live their life and Elizabeth and Lyric lost theirs at this individual(s) hands.
     
  6. SapphireSteel

    SapphireSteel New Member

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    all from memory, but my memory is pretty good:

    there was a lot of confusion at the time IIRC because Smock implied the bikes were found propped up yet the cyclist had had to swerve around them.

    There was also speculation as to whether or not the scene had been staged with a general concensus being, that it had. Mainly due to the Swerve Issue, but also due to the placement of the handbag and phone left behind, the lack of disturbance at the scene.

    I remember speculating that the person who had to swerve may well have passed by an Ongoing Crime without even realizing it: the girls may have only just seconds before been intercepted.

    And intercepted they were, of that there seems little doubt when you look at the circumstantials being:

    1. the girls were not even supposed to be there in the first place, being expected back at grandmas to leave

    2. they were allegedly seen biking with some sort of intent and allegedly asked the way from shop staff; this has been so often repeated I believe its gone beyond hearsay and has actually appeared in the media

    3. the only people who knew about that particular spot where the grassy knoll (sorry) and the footpath intercepted, were locals. Any non local would have used the Formal Car Park.

    4. no one saw or heard a thing, and the park was reasonably busy that day being a holiday. If nothing else, it was QUICK.

    5. no strange vehicles were seen in or near the grassy knoll.

    Take them one by one, all easily explained. Clump them together like a bunch of pencils, not so easily snapped in two.

    Even the location of the bodies implies Local Knowledge. Police were sure the girls were kept alive, in the beginning also. Why, has never been explained.

    all jmo but justice for these angels remains as close to my heart as it ever was.
     
  7. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    Originally I was convinced that the person who did this had to be a serial perpetrator. Then I read RichKelly's (one of WebSleuths verified law enforcement According to Rich, this was more likely to be the perpetrator's first and probably only murder. And he feels terrible about it but is too chicken to come forward.

    If Rich is correct, then there will be no further murders of girls but he may commit other crimes short of murder.
     
  8. carbuff

    carbuff Well-Known Member

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    Ahah! That's where I got the impression that the cyclist had moved the bikes. I knew I had read it somewhere.
     
  9. SapphireSteel

    SapphireSteel New Member

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    Also carbuff I do believe in hindsight there was a lot of finangling by Local Police by which I mean -

    They were known to the family through Church.

    So the original investigation always, always seemed slightly OFF to me. I was relieved when the FBI was bought in but from memory it was the FBI lady who advised us all on tv they thought the girls were still alive.

    Basically in this investigation I got the STRONG feeling the Left hand didn't know what the Right hand was doing, and the interfighting and politics essentially cost Elizabeth and Lyric some Justice.

    I would love to know where the Investigation is up to but MOO has long been They Know Who Did It, Just Cant Prove It, and he's in jail already so No One is in Any Hurry, and when an arrest is finally made the entire town will be in Uproar because Everyone Knew All Along just wasn't allowed to say so.

    :(

    These poor little girls, like Jonbenet before them, let down in life then in death also, by those charged to care for them.

    I hope certain individuals never know another nights peace as long as they live.

    And it were Never Klunder, who I personally named Blunder.

    This one was PLANNED to the eyeballs imo, absolutely nothing Impromptu about it.

    A lot of folk share a lot of blame. JMHO.
     
  10. SapphireSteel

    SapphireSteel New Member

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    I would say Rich is DEFINITELY correct, the girls were Targetted for a Reason.

    Someone went to a lot of trouble to do this crime. Trouble and planning.

    I say there will be no repeats because the perp is already incarcerated and everyone knows it.

    but then I've always been out on my own with this opinion here. Why...not sure...

    This crime has always screamed INSIDERS to me. And, money....some how or some way, someone benefited financially from the murders.

    I have never believed they were a Sexual type abduction. It just doesn't have the hallmarks IMHO including Police being so certain they remained alive.

    Statistics tell us children abducted for sexual reasons usually have less than 24 hours left to live.

    For some reason the Fbi believed these girls were being kept alive but hidden.

    We still don't know why they believe that, and maybe they were right. Maybe the girls WERE alive, right up until Plan B had to come into play which meant they were killed.

    Poor babies. I can only pray they were not too frightened.
     
  11. SapphireSteel

    SapphireSteel New Member

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    yes but I don't think the cyclist DID move the bikes

    somewhere between him swerving, and Police arriving, the bikes had been moved.

    This doesn't mean the swerving cyclist was the one who moved them!

    Smock also spoke of Staging and the moving of the bicycles could well be what he was talking about.

    Anything shifted about a scene is considered Staging.

    Staging is used to imply Crime A is actually Crime B.

    Staging could be as simple as nudging a dead finger off a trigger.

    In this case we not only had the bikes apparently mysteriously moved (like an adult would move them) but Lizzies bag and cell phone also appeared Staged.

    My contention is that the Abduction was actually ONGOING when swerver cycled past. The Abduction had begun but the Staging had not begun.

    Someone had the girls in the woods while the swerver cycled past.

    This also tends to imply to my way of thinking, that there were at least two perps....one to silence/contain the girls, one to fiddle about with the scene to make it look like an Off Highway Abduction.

    Heck perp 2 could've had the girls in his truck already taking them on a joy ride around the lake, not even realizing they'd just been abducted, while the buddy arranged the scene.

    PLANNED. Ugh.
     
  12. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    Me too Marilyn! It's the bikes that hold some answers that we desire. I think there is information about the bikes that LE is holding close to their vests. I doubt that Heather and Drew or Misty and Wilma nor Dan know about the bikes and their placement. I don't know, but I would bet the bikes are still held as evidence somewhere.

    At one point, I believe, Grainne Dhu, brought up the idea the perp or perps could have planned on coming back and getting the bikes and disposing them at another location. By the time, the perp made it back to Meyers Lake the place was swarming with law enforcement, firemen, family, locals searching. And, they could have slid in amongst the rest of the mass swarm of confusion...
     
  13. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    I pray this is the case. However, the FBI will be fully prepared to compare similar abductions with Lyric and Lizzy's abduction and murder. I agree with RichKelly too about the killer being local and not likely to commit an abduction and murder again. If it is someone who has developed a taste for this particular type of crime, he has moved on where there is less heat.
     
  14. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    So glad to see you posting again SS!

    1. I think Lyric and Lizzy probably knew Grandma never left when she said she would and while they wouldn't be hours late, they knew being a few minutes late would result in only a quick scolding - in one ear and out the other.

    2. I'm not local, but I have yet to see anything considered MSM about the girls asking for directions.

    3. Agree definitely! Local... and 7-Bridges - local.

    4. What was the holiday? There were lots of local events going on not necessarily in Evansdale, but Waterloo. There was a wrestling event, and some sort of religious gathering which I always thought could have attracted Klunder to the area - thought he would visit with his RSO friend at Meyers Lake.

    5. There were reports of a white older model SUV vehicle. Pretty generic, but still I believe at least 2 people reported this vehicle. No link : (

    I just can't imagine anyone being capable of killing two innocent little girls. I never could bring myself to believe the FBI lady talking about the girls still being alive. When they weren't found by Saturday morning, I always felt they were dead. Even Elizabeth Smart's speech didn't stir me to believe the girls were being kept alive. May they rest in peace!
     
  15. Grainne Dhu

    Grainne Dhu Active Member

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    That just gave me a (rather icky) thought: what better way to establish one's self as innocent than to join in the initial search?

    Even though the phenomenon of perps joining the search is well known, I think natural human inclination is to view anyone who was concerned and active on the very first day as being innocent and genuinely altruistic. Of course, we *know* that the vast majority of the people out there that first day were innocent and being genuinely altruistic. It's just a possibility that one may not have been so.
     
  16. carbuff

    carbuff Well-Known Member

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    I have always assumed this was the case. Of course there were a gazillion people out there searching, so it's not like that narrows it down a lot. :p
     
  17. Bootsctr

    Bootsctr Well-Known Member

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    Oh yes! By all means, most were there to search for the girls in hopes of finding them alive. What better way to make sure you were seen than show up on a quad and search Meyers Lake?
     
  18. threecrazykids

    threecrazykids Well-Known Member

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    In regards to the search and the perp joining in...I am wondering at what point they would have interjected themselves. If memory serves me correctly, during those first hours it's possible that only LE, first responders, and family were the only people involved in the search. Unless the family had called around to friends of Elizabeth's to see if the girls were at their home (and actually requested assistance in physically searching) who all would have known to go look?
    Did someone just happen to show up at the park wondering what all the fuss was about? From reading MSM it sounded like it was really just Lyric's family and LE at Meyer's Lake - I don't remember mention of Heather or Drew being there. I may be wrong, but for some reason I have a memory that Heather didn't participate in the searches, but stayed back in case they came home (which makes sense in case they finally showed up).

    I just don't remember seeing the masses of help come in to search until later on that evening and then the following days. I remember an article about people saying they had seen people in the park with flashlights looking around in the woods, and we know Tammy mentioned the family did their own search of the wooded area until LE finally put up the crime scene tape and got everyone out of there.

    I just wonder if anyone other than family was even aware that real searches were underway until several hours after they were long gone. And if those people were aware, were they also searching in areas that (in hind sight) should have been taped off immediately? If someone else's DNA shows up in the taped off area, it's possible they would have a valid explanation as to why it's there...they helped in the search.

    The question being - Should that person have even known about the search?
     
  19. Marilynilpa

    Marilynilpa Well-Known Member

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    I just have trouble believing that the perpetrator feels terrible about this crime. How could you feel that bad and not have anyone pick up on it?

    I am not saying Rich is wrong that this might be the person's first murder, but I cannot buy into the feeling terrible idea. Now the being too chicken concept is more believable to me!

    All JMO.
     
  20. 24Roses

    24Roses Well-Known Member

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    The info. in this message and your other one is very interesting. I wish you could tell us more. I've been trying to figure out who this is with no luck.
     
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