IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #1

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kazzbar

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Child sex trading goes on every day all over the world.Why not America and why not American kids. Governments worldwide know it happens and yet little is done by anyone because it is to hard and it is easier just to ignore it. We see it with Asian kids in the East and now with Polish and Russian women and children in Britain.Being procured for a better life with big promise only to end up as illegal immigrants in a strange country forced to work as sex slaves.
It is not hard to believe that American boys and girls are being taken and used in the same way. I cannot believe how many kids go missing in a week some come back but most are just 'gone' into thin air.
I think what Bonnaci says it credible but I just wish there were 'others' who would come forward.
 

godzorphan

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yes, i think 20 minutes is about it, until they realize they're losing their audience of people who don't know the game they are playing.

actually some people did come forward with some very volatile - and in many ways identical - information as paul. unfortunately some of them caved and denied everything they had said, and the ones who refused were disbelieved. sound familiar? i have to tell you, though, when you see two people from different states naming some of the same people, same locations and same "codes" down to the exact letter, it makes you a believer.
 

Pcarpent

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HeartofTexas said:
... give it about 20 minutes and someone will be along to tell us it's not happening, never has happened and never will happen.
Everything alleged on this thread COULD INDEED BE HAPPENING, and should be taken seriously - anyone who says otherwise is not being truly open minded. But to me, taking things seriously means expecting to be fairly and rigorously challenged - I think we all agree the truth should be able to withstand that. It's not personal, it's a public forum dialogue, and please don't confuse healthy, critical questioning with dismissiveness.
 

docwho3

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Pcarpent said:
Everything alleged on this thread COULD INDEED BE HAPPENING, and should be taken seriously - anyone who says otherwise is not being truly open minded. But to me, taking things seriously means expecting to be fairly and rigorously challenged - I think we all agree the truth should be able to withstand that. It's not personal, it's a public forum dialogue, and please don't confuse healthy, critical questioning with dismissiveness.
Agreed! And I personally think this case has a more local flavor and is of smaller number of those involved than most people think, possibly only one (or two people at most) and maybe not any "ring" involved.

That's just my personal thoughts on the matter so far and of course those too are open to ". . .be fairly and rigorously challenged . . ." I don't have hard evidence to prove it but the day of the week this and another kidnapping took place and maybe also the approximate times of day make me lean towards the one or two perps with maybe no "ring" involvement.

Having a paper route can be one of the fastest ways to get some kook mad at you. Here on websleuths we have seen a case where some old guy went nuts and used a shotgun to kill a kid because he had dared to step on his lawn. It isn't hard to think of someone possibly having it in for paperboys who may have shortcut through his lawn or thrown a paper into the wrong place.

And then again we might be looking at someone who was another J. Dahmer type of case for all we know, which might help explain why no bodies were found.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/dahmer/index.html


Somewhere not far from where the boys were abducted there is probably a house with a basement of horrible secrets or maybe just a home that appears to have no basement but perhaps a hole dug under the floor big enough to keep a boy or bury remains in. I, this year, saw on TV where one perp had a hole dug through the floor of his mobile home and had taken a girl he kidnapped down there but she managed to escape and police caught the guy.
But just think, if she hadn't escaped then she might be another of these seemingly unsolvable mysteries.

Just because its boys that are victems does not mean it has to be a "ring" of people involved. Both Dahmer and J.W. Gacy have proven that.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/gacy/gacy_1.html

Just as in the case of Jon Bonet Ramsey, someone confessed to involvement in the crime but L.E. did not find the confession credible and L.E. was probably correct.
Its one of those things that happens sometimes.
 

Pandora

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Roy Harrold

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Are there attempts to prevent "the truth" about this case getting out?

There are definitely attempts being made to stop questions about Bonacci being raised, I can personally testify to that! I have been sent nasty messages essentially telling me to "shut up" (not through this forum), people have attempted to "expose" me as a dis-information agent in this alleged conspiracy, people have posted other lies about me in various places.

There is an organized effort to "shut people up", but in my experience it's not coming from "the authorities" or people in power.
 

Roy Harrold

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That anonymous letter seems a bit suspicious. I don't believe for a minute that "the boys in the photo were challenging each other to an escape contest".
 

William R Thomas

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kazzbar said:
I think what Bonnaci says it credible but I just wish there were 'others' who would come forward.

There was another, but they put her in jail for perjury as well.
 

William R Thomas

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docwho3 said:
Agreed! And I personally think this case has a more local flavor and is of smaller number of those involved than most people think, possibly only one (or two people at most) and maybe not any "ring" involved.

That's just my personal thoughts on the matter so far and of course those too are open to ". . .be fairly and rigorously challenged . . ." I don't have hard evidence to prove it but the day of the week this and another kidnapping took place and maybe also the approximate times of day make me lean towards the one or two perps with maybe no "ring" involvement.

Having a paper route can be one of the fastest ways to get some kook mad at you. Here on websleuths we have seen a case where some old guy went nuts and used a shotgun to kill a kid because he had dared to step on his lawn. It isn't hard to think of someone possibly having it in for paperboys who may have shortcut through his lawn or thrown a paper into the wrong place.

And then again we might be looking at someone who was another J. Dahmer type of case for all we know, which might help explain why no bodies were found.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/dahmer/index.html


Somewhere not far from where the boys were abducted there is probably a house with a basement of horrible secrets or maybe just a home that appears to have no basement but perhaps a hole dug under the floor big enough to keep a boy or bury remains in. I, this year, saw on TV where one perp had a hole dug through the floor of his mobile home and had taken a girl he kidnapped down there but she managed to escape and police caught the guy.
But just think, if she hadn't escaped then she might be another of these seemingly unsolvable mysteries.

Just because its boys that are victems does not mean it has to be a "ring" of people involved. Both Dahmer and J.W. Gacy have proven that.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/gacy/gacy_1.html

Just as in the case of Jon Bonet Ramsey, someone confessed to involvement in the crime but L.E. did not find the confession credible and L.E. was probably correct.
Its one of those things that happens sometimes.

I couldn't disagree with you more.
 

William R Thomas

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Pandora said:
A copy of a letter recently sent to the Des Moines PD regarding the pictures can be found here: http://www.kcci.com/download/2006/0921/9904381.pdf

Police are asking for information in regards to this letter:
The letter was postmarked in Tampa, Fla., and West Des Moines police are requesting that anyone that has information as to the author of the letter contact them at 515-222-3345, a release said.



More info:http://www.kcci.com/news/9904360/detail.html


Of course, I always tie up young boys with plastic tie wraps (only the first boy), which require needlenose pliers to remove, for fun. Why didn't I just assume that?

When I was a kid, we would have escape contest, we used some rope from the backyard, and someone would try to tie up our hands with a knot they learned in boyscouts. It usually took about 10 seconds or less to shake the ropes off and we would get bored and do something else. Don't ever recall being bound and gagged, hand and foot and mouth.

If this was such a harmless prank gone wrong, then why was it investigated back then? I mean, if you did a prank like this, would you go around showing your friends photos of the event? There was no internet, so it obviously wasn't posted there. That leads me to believe that even back then, if this story in the letter is remotely true, (which I don't believe for a second it is), it was found in the possession of someone who shouldn't have had it.
 

reb

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hey everyone,, please see my post about my thoughts about a connection between johnny's case, jacob wetterling & and others.. a bit further down the cold cases page. these ideas are probably nothing new- (but they're new to me)- i probably should have posted it in this thread, but anyway, it's there if anyone has anything to add. what do you think..???
 

HeartofTexas

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Everything alleged on this thread COULD INDEED BE HAPPENING, and should be taken seriously - anyone who says otherwise is not being truly open minded. But to me, taking things seriously means expecting to be fairly and rigorously challenged - I think we all agree the truth should be able to withstand that. It's not personal, it's a public forum dialogue, and please don't confuse healthy, critical questioning with dismissiveness.
I meant no disrespect for anyone with my posts. It's just simply a matter of having read enough of their posts to know that it would be a life-long battle of trying to convince someone that an apple is an orange, and the other person is never going to see it the way I do. So, in essence, I'm saying I don't want to try to convince them anymore. I can look at the bowl of fruit and see oranges, and they can look at the same bowl and see apples. It's their perogative. I just don't want to spend any additional time convincing someone to consider another viewpoint when I don't think that's going to happen.

If my post came across as dismissive, I apologize for that, and I'll make every attempt to make sure it doesn't happen again.
 

Roy Harrold

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Noreen Gosch says she's received a death threat recently.

Threats against public figures should always be taken seriously. I hope she has reported this to the police, because they have an obligation to ensure her safety.

Also, if its true that there is no active investigation into that pedo site and how the pictures got on it, that would be an irresponsible failure on the part of the police in my opinion.
 

reb

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just trying to understand the case here... if everything his mother said was true & she really did see her son.. is it generally understood that johnny is being protected by the govt.- as in witness protection program? or is he just hiding on his own? either way whatever group that he's hiding from must be pretty extensive and pretty powerful.

one thing that i find odd.... how come there seem to be no other cases (that we know about) where this has happened?? you'd think if this pedo ring was so huge & kidnapping so many children, that there would be more escapes & more people coming forward.. either to their families, or (if they felt it was worth the risk) to the public.

if it IS true.. then noreen must have felt unbearably torn between honoring her son's request for privacy and telling the world about what he told her. she knew that telling the truth would mean he would probably never come back to see her, but since he said he'd never see her again anyway.. she felt like she had nothing to lose. EXCEPT for the fact that she may have been putting his life in further danger, because now the ringleaders (or whoever) would know that he went home and 'ratted' them out... making him even more of a target.
it's interesting that she felt it was worth the risk, to have the truth be known... even to the point of writing a book about it. did she not think she was putting him in even more danger by doing this?
 

Elberethe

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http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060922/NEWS01/609220362/1001

Ex-investigator: No proof photos aren't of Gosch
A Florida sheriff's office can't prove they predate the 1980s D.M. case.

Some doubted Noreen Gosch's claims that the photos included images of her long-lost 12-year-old after a Florida investigator publicly debunked her theory last week.

But that investigator now admits that the Hillsborough County, Fla., sheriff's office cannot find any evidence proving the photos were actually from a case he worked in 1979, as he recalled.

(more at link)
 

Roy Harrold

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Heart of Texas said:

"So, in essence, I'm saying I don't want to try to convince them anymore. I can look at the bowl of fruit and see oranges, and they can look at the same bowl and see apples. It's their perogative. I just don't want to spend any additional time convincing someone to consider another viewpoint when I don't think that's going to happen."

I understood that was what you were saying, and actually I have the same feelings sometimes - if perhaps from the other side of the coin. :)

I hope that you also will understand that I don't mean to be dismissive of your point of view either - I just have this concern that the conspiracy theories surrounding this case might be a smokescreen actually concealing the truth about certain crimes, so I feel obliged to point out that they might not represent reality.
 

HeartofTexas

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Thanks for understanding, Roy. I'll work on not coming across as dismissive myself, and I'll respect your right to your opinion. I just won't be arguing with you to try to change your opinion... that's all.
 

Trocaria

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Roy Harrold said:
Noreen Gosch says she's received a death threat recently.

Threats against public figures should always be taken seriously. I hope she has reported this to the police, because they have an obligation to ensure her safety.

Also, if its true that there is no active investigation into that pedo site and how the pictures got on it, that would be an irresponsible failure on the part of the police in my opinion.
Hey, from the get go, the local Barney Fife's have done zippy-do-da. Why change now?
 

surelock

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Trocaria said:
Hey, from the get go, the local Barney Fife's have done zippy-do-da. Why change now?
That's not being fair to Barney! Barney had heart and made an effort to solve crimes.
 

Trocaria

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"The Colonel" was the man who Bonacci said ran a ranch in Colorado. Bonacci said the last time he saw Johnny was back in 1986 at that same ranch. Johnny, whose hair was now dyed black, and was renamed "Mark", had attempted to run away. When they caught up with him, they branded Johnny on his right buttock, like a piece of livestock. "

Did Paul or anyone describe HOW Gosch attempted to flee? Where he went to, how far did he get? Was it, by any chance, as far as Denver, CO?

I have already PMed another member of how one day in Denver in the summer of 1986, while riding the the city bus up Colfax from the capital, I looked up to see a young man getting on, a young man that looked very much like Johnny Gosch. The orbital area, nose and the mouth were very like the photos we all had been seeing. But what held me in check, was that this guy wore glasses and had either dark hair or very dirty hair so that it only looked dark. He was not dressed well, striped shirt, ill fitting pants and yet...there was something about him...
Half of me wanted to go over to him, try to start a conversation to see what he would say or how he would react if I called him by name. The other half cautioned that this was after all the 0 bus on Colfax and not the best place to make new friends. And besides, what kind of kidanpper lets his prey ride public transit alone and buys him glasses to boot?

Now I wonder and after reading this, I wonder even more.

I do know, as I told this other member, that the area around the Denver capital, especially the Centinial building, was ground zero for male hookers, especially the "chickens" and the hawks who hunted for them.
(I was a daytime security guard there. Even in the day, on the weekends, the meat market did a brisk business).

So I am only left to wonder. This latest flurry of activity makes me hopeful that there will be an ending to this story soon. I am prepared to believe the impossible, especially before breakfast.
 
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