IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #2

[Mr. E]

Dr. Doogie, I hadn't heard of that photo. I'd love to see it. I haven't dismissed the single photos either, although I do think they resemble Johnny. Somebody else said they resembled the new unidentified boy on Noreen's website, and I agree that they do. A full face-on shot of Johnny in the photo you described would be a great thing to get interest in the case rekindled, and people's faith in Noreen restored.

I've also heard that there is a picture of Johnny and Jacob Wetterling kissing. Maybe Noreen said this, I don't know. This, too, sounds urban legendy.

 

[mel36]

I have read some of the court transcripts, from Paul, the photographer and Noreens, I have seen the AMW photo's I have even seen his story on AMW with all of the evidence, photo's to back up that there were parties and with all of the interviews with numerous witnesses and the branding and everything thats out there, why is it that this story is so hard for some to believe? There are sick individuals out there and they continue to hurt children because they are rich enough not to get caught and because some do not want to leave the fairytale world of that would never happen it continues to happen and if anybody were put through the hell that Noreen has been put through and she is still able to function at half ( at best ) then I give her some room for being a little crazy, some may want to excuse her for maybe not keeping things together perfectly at all times, I have not read the book, but I am willing to look at all of the bad that has happened and say how does she keep it together so well as all of the other parents of missing children try to do. My heart goes out to her and her family I don't know her personally and I don't mean to sound harsh toward anybody here It's just that if God Forbid this happened to a child of mine, I hope that I would have half the strength to get through each heart wrenching minute that these other families have. :twocents: Please don't get angry at me for voicing my opinion a little loudly its just that my heart aches for all involved as I am sure the rest of you feel the same way.

 

[laini]

I have read some of the court transcripts, from Paul, the photographer and Noreens, I have seen the AMW photo's I have even seen his story on AMW with all of the evidence, photo's to back up that there were parties and with all of the interviews with numerous witnesses and the branding and everything thats out there, why is it that this story is so hard for some to believe? There are sick individuals out there and they continue to hurt children because they are rich enough not to get caught and because some do not want to leave the fairytale world of that would never happen it continues to happen and if anybody were put through the hell that Noreen has been put through and she is still able to function at half ( at best ) then I give her some room for being a little crazy, some may want to excuse her for maybe not keeping things together perfectly at all times, I have not read the book, but I am willing to look at all of the bad that has happened and say how does she keep it together so well as all of the other parents of missing children try to do. My heart goes out to her and her family I don't know her personally and I don't mean to sound harsh toward anybody here It's just that if God Forbid this happened to a child of mine, I hope that I would have half the strength to get through each heart wrenching minute that these other families have. :twocents: Please don't get angry at me for voicing my opinion a little loudly its just that my heart aches for all involved as I am sure the rest of you feel the same way.

I agree with a lot that you said. I can't imagine what Noreen ahs gone through losing her son like this. But I have to say the thing that changed my whole opinion on this case was reading her book which is her own words.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

A full face-on shot of Johnny in the photo you described would be a great thing to get interest in the case rekindled, and people's faith in Noreen restored.

My post above was not clear (upon rereading within the context of your post): I do not know if the picture shows "Johnny" and "Bonacci" clearly or "full-faced" (I do not even know if the picture actually exists or if it is a photoshop-composited hoax). I am just giving everyone a heads up that "something big" was rumored to be about to surface. We shall see if this picture ever appears or if it lives up the hype. Will it be Bush Sr. with the unidentifiable teenagers or will it be obviously Johhny and Bonacci? I do not know and am eager to see what all of the buzz is about.

 

[mel36]

I will have to read her book and then I will probebly see what your saying. Sometimes its hard I tend to jump to the defense before I have all the facts and thats my bad. I will check it out. thanks.:silenced:

 

[iowa gurl]

I have read some of the court transcripts, from Paul, the photographer and Noreens, I have seen the AMW photo's I have even seen his story on AMW with all of the evidence, photo's to back up that there were parties and with all of the interviews with numerous witnesses and the branding and everything thats out there, why is it that this story is so hard for some to believe? There are sick individuals out there and they continue to hurt children because they are rich enough not to get caught and because some do not want to leave the fairytale world of that would never happen it continues to happen and if anybody were put through the hell that Noreen has been put through and she is still able to function at half ( at best ) then I give her some room for being a little crazy, some may want to excuse her for maybe not keeping things together perfectly at all times, I have not read the book, but I am willing to look at all of the bad that has happened and say how does she keep it together so well as all of the other parents of missing children try to do. My heart goes out to her and her family I don't know her personally and I don't mean to sound harsh toward anybody here It's just that if God Forbid this happened to a child of mine, I hope that I would have half the strength to get through each heart wrenching minute that these other families have. :twocents: Please don't get angry at me for voicing my opinion a little loudly its just that my heart aches for all involved as I am sure the rest of you feel the same way.

Thanks Mel for your 2 cents worth, I agree.

Noreen does not need our pity she needs our support and I do not think a poorly edited, passionate book should be used to discredit her. Noreen has done so much for the missing and expoited children in this nation. I think Noreen deserves more credit and more respect than she gets on these posts.

I maintain that there is no one in a better position to say if the pictures are or are not of Johnny. If the energy spen discrediting Noreen would be spent helping her maybe Johnny would be home.

 

[Roy Harrold]

Are the Des Moines police even investigating this or taking Noreen seriously anymore? I would be interested to talk to someone with LE who was invovled in this case from the beginning.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I see no reason to believe that Des Moines police do now or ever have considered the Johnny Gosch case to be "closed". I'm confident they would happily look into any credible tip, from a credible source, about it.

Do they consider Noreen Gosch's posting of pictures on her website to constitute a credible tip from a credible source? I can't answer that either, but I'd be surprised if they were anything less than extremely skeptical about Ms Gosch's current activities, claims and statements.

I'd be skeptical, because Ms Gosch 'burned' them once again with her widely-publicized announcement about the first few photos and her request that Des Moines police investigate those photos. She asked them to investigate the pictures, on her behalf, and when their investigation failed to support her own claims about the pictures she publicly denounced them as incompetents, and posted other derogatory statements & insinuations about them on her website.

That would be the second time I'm aware of where Ms Gosch has publicly asked Des Moines police to help investigate aspects of her son's diappearance, and they did, and she subsequently publicly slammed them for their efforts. (The first time being at Johnny's initial disappearance).

I was surprised that Des Moines police agreed to look into the initial photos at all, given their department's prior experience with Ms Gosch. That they agreed to, as readily as they did, showed real professionalism in my opinion. It's a shame that she wasn't able to keep her opinions about their performance to herself, again - how many times would any of us extend a helping hand to someone that ends up biting it?

 

[Roy Harrold]

On FranklinFiles.com, a person who claims to know Patricia Johnson-Holm personally claims that she does have a son named David who is now in his thirties and has nothing to do with her (her other children also have cut their ties with her). The poster also claims that PJH has changed her story over the years from her son being cloned and it was the clone who was given to her by the people in the white trailer (in a matter of hours they cloned a teenage boy?) to the current story of her having a stolen twin who was switched with David by the people in the white trailer. And that she had just recently discovered that she had given birth to twins (one of whom was stolen at birth - I guess just so they could abduct the other one a dozen years later and make the switch. Makes perfect sense to me. :liar: ). The posters also lists many other kooky claims that the woman has made (and as hilarious as they are, I will not list them here).

That entire posting was most excellent, Dr D! Thanks! (I cropped it in my quote because of the length)

One of the reasons I apply a higher standard for proof about statements & claims made in relation to this case than I might apply to some other case I know less about, is the "background noise" of unrelated (to solving the case)agendas that seems to contaminate so much of the information allegedly related to it. Are we being provided with this information, because the person providing it genuinely wants to solve the disappearance of Johnny Gosch - or is the person providing the info doing that in the hope of establishing/ bolstering/ restoring their own credibility within some subculture or group that has little or nothing to do with solving missing persons cases?

So many of the personalities claiming to have information relevant to this case, are involved in a constant 'battle' with each other for status and standing in subculture groups like SRA survivors, MKUltra survivors, the Patriot Movement and/or conspiracy theorist forum culture - how can we possibly separate snippets of genuinely relevant info out of the torrents of self-serving, self-promotion? Panhandling for gold in your local river seems as likely to generate anything of value - not very.

Speaking of which - I was amused to see that Barbara Hartwell has resurfaced again, with her interesting and provocative perspective on many of the other participants in these subcultures, including the biggest "names" in the Johnny Gosch-related conspiracy theorist group:
http://barbarahartwell.blogspot.com/

of particular interest, perhaps "POLLUTING THE PATRIOT & 9-11 TRUTH MOVEMENTS" (november 20, 2006) and a 'reprint' of her "OPEN LETTER TO NOREEN GOSCH" (november 22, 2006), although I don't necessarily invest any more faith in what she has to say than in what any of the others have to say.

 

[Roy Harrold]

I have read some of the court transcripts, from Paul, the photographer and Noreens, I have seen the AMW photo's I have even seen his story on AMW with all of the evidence, photo's to back up that there were parties and with all of the interviews with numerous witnesses and the branding and everything thats out there, why is it that this story is so hard for some to believe? There are sick individuals out there and they continue to hurt children because they are rich enough not to get caught and because some do not want to leave the fairytale world of that would never happen it continues to happen and if anybody were put through the hell that Noreen has been put through and she is still able to function at half ( at best ) then I give her some room for being a little crazy, some may want to excuse her for maybe not keeping things together perfectly at all times, I have not read the book, but I am willing to look at all of the bad that has happened and say how does she keep it together so well as all of the other parents of missing children try to do. My heart goes out to her and her family I don't know her personally and I don't mean to sound harsh toward anybody here It's just that if God Forbid this happened to a child of mine, I hope that I would have half the strength to get through each heart wrenching minute that these other families have. :twocents: Please don't get angry at me for voicing my opinion a little loudly its just that my heart aches for all involved as I am sure the rest of you feel the same way.

Mel - your opinion and two cents (cute graphic) are welcome here.

I don't think I've seen anyone here claim that there are no "sick individuals out there and they continue to hurt children because they are rich enough not to get caught". On the contrary, I have found the vast majority of participants in these threads to be aware of and concerned about the myriad threats to children's safety that exist, in our society and around the globe.

I also can't think of anyone here who would disagree with this: "My heart goes out to her and her family".

Someone suggested that, if all the energy devoted to critically examining Noreen Gosch's statements & claims was invested in "helping her" - perhaps "Johnny would be home by now". The problem is - what does it mean, to "help" Ms Gosch (other than donating funds to her charity)?

How would accepting whatever she or her 'informants' says, without any critical evaluation, help Ms Gosch or bring Johnny back to her life? Is there some quota of unquestioning believers whose existence, once they are recruited, will spontaneously and miraculously cause the person(s) responsible for Johnny's disappearance to confess or to be brought to justice?

Heartbreaking cold cases involving missing or murdered children ARE being solved. Suspects are being developed and prosecutions pursued in some cases. However, as in the case of the "Oakland County Child Killer" (refer link)
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/11/child.slayings.ap/index.html

the 'breaks' in these cases seem to come primarily out of painstaking persistence by legitimate law enforcement agencies investigating individual perpetrators, not as a result of private investigations carried out by unqualified child advocates nor through public support of conspiracy theorists.

 

[mel36]

Roy, the whole process sometimes is extremely frustrating for all involved. I agree with you that the people on these threads work hard towards the safe return of children, sometimes I tend to speak out of turn and need to realize that my opinion is not the only one, as far as the police depts go its that kind of attitude from them that leads investigations no where in the transcripts it describes Mr King as an extremely wealthy individual and it is evident that he was buying alot more than one person many times over and the police chief being involved because he was bought off just reinforces the statement that I made about rich people, I live in a town were wealth rules the majority and if you have enough of it you can own a happy little life without fear of being brought to justice if you or your children break the law so I am predujice (excuse the spelling) when I read about it happening I tend to be very critical because for anybody to choose money over the safety of children makes me sick as I am sure it does anybody that has feelings. I don't want to make enemies here and I will in the future take a moment before I jump right into an opinion so boldly stated. :silenced:

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I have been posting on Patricia Johnson-Holm's forum, pointing out the logical inconsistencies of her kookiness. She ignored my posts for a few days, but I finally goaded her into a response. After answering her responses, I posted the following:

"Look, you have every right to believe any kooky thing you want to. The only reason that I care one way or another about you is the fact that you have clearly dragged a good (yet vulnerable) woman, Noreen Gosch, into your web of craziness. She wants so badly to have confirmation of her beliefs concerning the picture of the three boys that she has lost her critical thinking ability to see what a fraud you are. I, on the other hand, see you for exactly what you are: a disturbed woman who thinks that EVERYTHING that has ever happened on this planet is centered on you. The middle boy is not your son. Your son is now in his thirties, living in Washington and has no relationship with you because you are crazy. The boy on the left is not David's friend from Seattle (he also is not listed in any of the missing person databases - did his mother have a twin stolen at birth too?) I do not know if the boy on the right is Johnny Gosch, but the truth about this picture will NEVER be known as long as you have fraudulently inserted yourself into something that never had anything to do with your son.

My humble suggestion? How about you contact Noreen and admit your hoax and apologise? How about notifying Jeff Rense and the other media outlets that have interviewed you and retract your statements? How about not asserting your sick need for attention into legitimate missing child cases like Johnny Gosch? How about therapy for yourself?"

I am not optimistic, but I hope that maybe we can save Noreen from this woman. That is how I would like to support Noreen.

 

[2sisters]

did she respond to that? where can i find her forum?

 

[Dr. Doogie]

did she respond to that? where can i find her forum?

Not yet, I just posted it. Here is the site:

http://pub18.bravenet.com/forum/1501039859

Be prepared for a lot of pop-ups. You will see that virtually all of the posts are by PJH. She mentions in one of her responses to me that it is interesting that "they " only allowed me to post, insinuating that "they" are preventing people who agree with her from posting. Welcome to the Wonderful World of Paranoia.

 

[Mr. E]

Dr. Doogie, that post was golden. Absolutely perfect. I can't wait to hear what she says, although I suspect she will accuse you of being a part of some larger government conspiracy, saying those things to distract people from the reality that she is really next in line for the British throne. Next she'll claim that some natural disaster near her home was really a clever ploy designed by you to silence her. Or she'll accuse you of snatching videos out of her hand at Blockbuster.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

...Next she'll claim that some natural disaster near her home was really a clever ploy designed by you to silence her...

I am not sure if I mentioned it, but she posted that the power outage that Seattle suffered as a result of this most recent storm knocked the two daily newspapers out of circulation for a day. She believes that this was done to prevent some "big event" from being reported on and asks "don't they have a generater or two" that could be used to run the presses. As a printing manager, I can tell you that you cannot run a gigantic press of the sort that produces a daily newspaper with a generator or two. But more to the point, she actually thinks that "they" caused a winter storm specifically designed to stop publication of a story that "they" didn't want published, ignoring the fact that every other newspaper, news website, television and radio station on the planet still could provide the information to the public (as could the two Seattle papers once they published the following day). That is how shallow this woman's ability to reason is - she actually thinks "they" control the weather to stop her from disseminating information.:crazy: :loser:

 

[2sisters]

Not yet, I just posted it. Here is the site:

http://pub18.bravenet.com/forum/1501039859

Be prepared for a lot of pop-ups. You will see that virtually all of the posts are by PJH. She mentions in one of her responses to me that it is interesting that "they " only allowed me to post, insinuating that "they" are preventing people who agree with her from posting. Welcome to the Wonderful World of Paranoia.

None of this is funny, but I can't help but laugh at what she says and does. it is actually sad.

 

[2sisters]

I am not sure if I mentioned it, but she posted that the power outage that Seattle suffered as a result of this most recent storm knocked the two daily newspapers out of circulation for a day. She believes that this was done to prevent some "big event" from being reported on and asks "don't they have a generater or two" that could be used to run the presses. As a printing manager, I can tell you that you cannot run a gigantic press of the sort that produces a daily newspaper with a generator or two. But more to the point, she actually thinks that "they" caused a winter storm specifically designed to stop publication of a story that "they" didn't want published, ignoring the fact that every other newspaper, news website, television and radio station on the planet still could provide the information to the public (as could the two Seattle papers once they published the following day). That is how shallow this woman's ability to reason is - she actually thinks "they" control the weather to stop her from disseminating information.:crazy: :loser:

Yeah well this is the same woman who on one of her site claims the governemt caused hurricane katrina as a money making scheme.

 

[Mr. E]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but according to this PJH post, is she actually suggesting that some children were kidnapped because their name is the same as or similar to some adult somewhere? I can't make heads or tails out of her posts:

Mark James-Warren Allen 5/13/72 missing 3/29/86 ****Ernest E. Allen President of NCMEC [National Center of Missing and Exploited Children]


Recognized by NCMEC as missing:
Tyler Andrew Holmes 12/23/88 - Des Moines Iowa/T. Holm GRK/Kurt Cobain

Eugene Wade Martin 8/17/70 missing 8/12/84 Des Moines Iowa Dodd Martin Lockheed Martin/Boeing



NOT listed on NCMEC:
Jimmy Gibson Seattle, WA look for connection of R. Gibson Masters Atty Preston Gates & Ellis

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but according to this PJH post, is she actually suggesting that some children were kidnapped because their name is the same as or similar to some adult somewhere? I can't make heads or tails out of her posts:

She seems to draw some message out of the fact that the last names of certain missing children match the last names of some important adult. A hypothetical example: Johnny Smith is a missing child, Fred Smith is an attorney at a law firm that cheated her (so these two facts must be related). She believes that the Green River Killer (who just happened to be her ex-husband) murdered girls and woman whose names left clues to who was behind the murders. She even believes that some victims named Ann were murdered as a message to Ann Rule to not write about the killings. (play Twilight Zone theme here...)

The Kurt Cobain reference is that Cobain was from the same town as one of the victims, so she claims that he had "special knowledge" about the case and was murdered and made to look like a suicide. In another post, she ties in the deaths of Jimi Hendrix, Peter Sellers, Keith Moon, Mama Cass Elliot and others to her claim to the throne of England (they all supposedly had information that proved that she was the true queen and were murdered to silence them).

 

[mel36]

It seems from what I have read on her post she appears to be suffering from a mental illness a severe mental illness (just my opinion). It's sad that she has to try and pull norreen into her world. This could do alot of damage.