IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

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shefner

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North America: Canada, U.S. and Mexico: U.S.: (1) The U.S. is principally a destination country; (2) A 1999 CIA report estimated that 45,000 to 50,000 women and children were trafficked into the U.S. annually; (3) According to the State Department, equal numbers of women are trafficked from Asia, Central and South America, Russia and Eastern Europe into the U.S.;




Again, the CIA reporting on human trafficking.....
 

Roy Harrold

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North America: Canada, U.S. and Mexico: U.S.: (1) The U.S. is principally a destination country; (2) A 1999 CIA report estimated that 45,000 to 50,000 women and children were trafficked into the U.S. annually; (3) According to the State Department, equal numbers of women are trafficked from Asia, Central and South America, Russia and Eastern Europe into the U.S.;

Again, the CIA reporting on human trafficking.....

I'm wrong. I've been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again...

I'll amend my statement: "There is no documentation of the CIA investigating *advertiser censored*, child *advertiser censored* or child trafficking prior to 1999" and certainly no documentation of such work by the CIA in 1982-84.

I'm especially interested in this information from Noreen Gosch's book:

"In a total reversal Sam Soda, began to contact the Des Moines Police
telling them that Paul Bishop (my CIA contact) had been in Des Moines a short time before the Martin kidnapping and was somehow involved. Sam must have bent the ear of some influential people because shortly afterward a Federal Grand Jury Hearing was scheduled; Paul Bishop was subpoenaed to testify.
He returned one more time to Des Moines. Following the hearing, Paul
took a taxi to my home. He had been questioned about Eugene Martin, what he was doing in Des Moines, who he talked to in Des Moines for over six hours. While he was sharing the details of the hearing; the phone rang a number of times. It was Sam Soda each time wanting to know if Paul Bishop was there. He became very agitated, when I told him Paul was not there. He claimed, he needed to talk with Paul and could not find him. We felt it best for Paul to change his travel plans, I made arrangements with friends for Paul to stay the night at their home. He flew back to Washington D.C. a couple of days later, under different name. I received two more phone calls from Paul in the following week that was to be the last time I saw or spoke with Paul. The phone number to call Paul at Langley Air Force Base was no longer working."


If anyone can find corroboration that there was a Federal Grand Jury that investigated the disappearance of Eugene Martin, please post a link to it.
 

WSTarheel

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You know,its absolutely reprehensible that the issue of this poor childs disappearence has gotten frieghted with this drizzling,maloderous pile of nonsense.

I'm trying to figure out what's nonsense and what's not. Can you elaborate on what paths I can cross off as "nonsense". Thanks.
 

Dr. Doogie

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I'm wrong. I've been wrong before, I'll probably be wrong again...

I'll amend my statement: "There is no documentation of the CIA investigating *advertiser censored*, child *advertiser censored* or child trafficking prior to 1999" and certainly no documentation of such work by the CIA in 1982-84.

Actually, I think you both may be correct because I believe that you two are comparing apples and oranges. The CIA does not investigate human trafficking on a case-by-case basis (which seems to be Roy Harrold's point). However, they do compile data in a macro sense to determine the extent of the problem (like shefner mentions). Both points are true and neither point cancels out the validity of the other.

Think of this comparison: The CIA does not arrest foreign drug dealers but does compile information on the quantity of drugs that enter our country from foreign countries.
 

Roy Harrold

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Information about Tony Nassif, president/founder Preventing Abuse Conference mentioned in Pandora's posting.

Also runs Cedars Cultural and Educational Foundation, and their Politics & Faith webpage: http://cedarsfoundation.org/

From which I quote:
"Question: Isn't the vote an expression of God's speed for success? Doesn’t our vote align ourselves with the values and morals of the positions held by the candidate we vote for? Knowing that God is victimized by abortion and he calls homosexuality an abomination what would he think – and do if we voted for a candidate who supported those things. Will we be considered accomplices?"

"About Tony Nassif
Nassif, author of Jesus, Politics and the Church Updated and Revised, has appeared on over 200 radio and television programs with such national leaders as Dr. Bill Bright, Founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Janet Parshall, Family News in Focus from Focus on the Family, Armstrong Williams, Dr. Jerry Falwell, Dr. D. James Kennedy and has spoken to such groups as Eagle Forum, Christian Coalition and the Republican Assemblies of California, FOX NEWS, Cornerstone Television Network, Trinity Broadcasting Network, VOICE of AMERICA, Concerned Women for America with Beverly LaHaye."
 

Roy Harrold

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Actually, I think you both may be correct because I believe that you two are comparing apples and oranges. The CIA does not investigate human trafficking on a case-by-case basis (which seems to be Roy Harrold's point). However, they do compile data in a macro sense to determine the extent of the problem (like shefner mentions). Both points are true and neither point cancels out the validity of the other.

Think of this comparison: The CIA does not arrest foreign drug dealers but does compile information on the quantity of drugs that enter our country from foreign countries.

Thanks for that, Doc!

For me, the relevant point being that there is no evidence the CIA was involved in investigating child kidnapping, prostitution or trafficking rings operating in the U.S., at the time "Paul Bishop" allegedly told Noreen Gosch that he was working for them on these issues. So, why would he have told her this if in fact he did?
 

shefner

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Information about Tony Nassif, president/founder Preventing Abuse Conference mentioned in Pandora's posting.

Also runs Cedars Cultural and Educational Foundation, and their Politics & Faith webpage: http://cedarsfoundation.org/

From which I quote:
"Question: Isn't the vote an expression of God's speed for success? Doesn’t our vote align ourselves with the values and morals of the positions held by the candidate we vote for? Knowing that God is victimized by abortion and he calls homosexuality an abomination what would he think – and do if we voted for a candidate who supported those things. Will we be considered accomplices?"

"About Tony Nassif
Nassif, author of Jesus, Politics and the Church Updated and Revised, has appeared on over 200 radio and television programs with such national leaders as Dr. Bill Bright, Founder of Campus Crusade for Christ, Janet Parshall, Family News in Focus from Focus on the Family, Armstrong Williams, Dr. Jerry Falwell, Dr. D. James Kennedy and has spoken to such groups as Eagle Forum, Christian Coalition and the Republican Assemblies of California, FOX NEWS, Cornerstone Television Network, Trinity Broadcasting Network, VOICE of AMERICA, Concerned Women for America with Beverly LaHaye."






Why are you mentioning this? The reason Pandora posted her info was to let us know that Noreen would be attending the event.

Believe it or not, there are those in America, Canada, and other countries, who feel that abortion and homosexuality are morally wrong. That doesn't mean they hate abortionists or homosexuals, although some might (and then they are morally/spiritually wrong).

I respect that you are gay....but that has nothing to do with Johnny Gosch. So, Tony Nassif is the founder and coordinator of this Preventing Abuse Conference and also an advocate for families. I think this event is being held with the greatest of intentions....bringing attention to many kinds of child abuse.
 

Insguru

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I've often wondered about Soda.....I believe that Paul B. (the other Paul, not Bishop) pointed to him as being in the hotel room just prior to the abduction (i'm going from memory here).

About a year back, i managed to find a Sam Soda, living in Des Moines, who was semi-active with local gov't (zoning board i seem to recall). I did not have the nerve to call him (his number was also listed at the time), but i would love to hear his side of the story. I mean, sometimes he is portrayed as a well meaning private eye, and other accounts implicate him with the abduction....

Does anyone else have any info on this or find this strange? I'm sure he's been asked a million times by curious people who know his name has come up. I wonder what his response is to this and what his involvement actually was with Noreen, etc.
 

Roy Harrold

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Why are you mentioning this? The reason Pandora posted her info was to let us know that Noreen would be attending the event.

Believe it or not, there are those in America, Canada, and other countries, who feel that abortion and homosexuality are morally wrong. That doesn't mean they hate abortionists or homosexuals, although some might (and then they are morally/spiritually wrong).

I respect that you are gay....but that has nothing to do with Johnny Gosch. So, Tony Nassif is the founder and coordinator of this Preventing Abuse Conference and also an advocate for families. I think this event is being held with the greatest of intentions....bringing attention to many kinds of child abuse.

Why mention what I did?
To provide context for this statement, appearing at the end of the announcement Pandora posted:
"The moral and cultural collapse is fueling the demand for trafficking victims."

I thought that pointing out what and who are likely to be scapegoated as "underlying causes" for "the demand for trafficking victims", at such a conference, ought to be made explicit.
 

shefner

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I'm just asking how you can pre-judge an event by saying what is "likely" to happen?

The whole point, or at least the highlighted point, that Pandora was making had to do with the fact that Noreen would be a guest at this event, along with others.
 

Roy Harrold

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I've often wondered about Soda.....I believe that Paul B. (the other Paul, not Bishop) pointed to him as being in the hotel room just prior to the abduction (i'm going from memory here).

About a year back, i managed to find a Sam Soda, living in Des Moines, who was semi-active with local gov't (zoning board i seem to recall). I did not have the nerve to call him (his number was also listed at the time), but i would love to hear his side of the story. I mean, sometimes he is portrayed as a well meaning private eye, and other accounts implicate him with the abduction....

Does anyone else have any info on this or find this strange? I'm sure he's been asked a million times by curious people who know his name has come up. I wonder what his response is to this and what his involvement actually was with Noreen, etc.

Yes. Isn't it somewhat maddening, not to have that kind of info to fill in the blanks with?

I think it needs to come from objective sources, though, to be of real use to us. That's why I tracked down the real name of the Senate hearing Noreen Gosch testified at. Now I can track down a transcript of the hearing, see if "Paul Bishop" is actually in it and what he really said about himself if he was. The same for the Grand Jury Noreen refers to. These would be objective records. It would be wonderful to locate something similar for Sam Soda and his involvement, I agree.
 

rbeck

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I've often wondered about Soda.....I believe that Paul B. (the other Paul, not Bishop) pointed to him as being in the hotel room just prior to the abduction (i'm going from memory here).

About a year back, i managed to find a Sam Soda, living in Des Moines, who was semi-active with local gov't (zoning board i seem to recall). I did not have the nerve to call him (his number was also listed at the time), but i would love to hear his side of the story. I mean, sometimes he is portrayed as a well meaning private eye, and other accounts implicate him with the abduction....

Does anyone else have any info on this or find this strange? I'm sure he's been asked a million times by curious people who know his name has come up. I wonder what his response is to this and what his involvement actually was with Noreen, etc.

Yes exactly i found the same thing i found where Sam Soda was mentioned in the minutes of a Warren county planning commission meeting in Iowa in 2007 . Sam Soda was definatley involved i wouldnt doubt if he was on Larry Kings payroll. he was constantly seen at The Max a notorious gay bar nightclub Larry King frequented and Sam was the guy who first introduced Rusty nelson to Larry King and got him his job as his photographer ive wondered why Sam wasnt arrested he was probably being protected by the crooked cops in omaha.
 

kline

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Whats nonsense?
Well in this case id say most of the speculation that isnt about which predatory sex offender abducted the poor kid raped him and dumped his body somewhere where it wouldnt be found.
Which by my calclation is about 99% of the content of the previous seven threads and the other websites dealing with this childs death.
Its time to bring the Black Helicopters in for a landing.
 

rbeck

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Whats nonsense?
Well in this case id say most of the speculation that isnt about which predatory sex offender abducted the poor kid raped him and dumped his body somewhere where it wouldnt be found.
Which by my calclation is about 99% of the content of the previous seven threads and the other websites dealing with this childs death.
Its time to bring the Black Helicopters in for a landing.
dealing with this childs death? who has ever said hes dead? if you want to ignore all the witnesses that have seen Johnny alive and just say he was kidnapped and murdered by a lone molester then you can do that i guess thats the easy thing to do.you would make an excellent detective with the Des Moines PD thats all they really tried to do anyway was shut this case down and do nothing.
 

Pandora

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The whole point, or at least the highlighted point, that Pandora was making had to do with the fact that Noreen would be a guest at this event, along with others.

Yup, what you said! :)
 

shadowraiths

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I'll amend my statement: "There is no documentation of the CIA investigating *advertiser censored*, child *advertiser censored* or child trafficking prior to 1999"
April 13, 1987 customs report

On Thursday, February 5, 1987, Senior Special Agent [redacted] and I assisted the Washington D.C. Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) with two search warrants involving the possible sexual exploitation of children. During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discovered which appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high tech transfer to the United Kingdom, and international transfer of currency.

[...]

The individual further advised me of circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity of the Finders had become a CIA internal matter.

Scanned documents (requires login to view)
 

Roy Harrold

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April 13, 1987 customs report


On Thursday, February 5, 1987, Senior Special Agent [redacted] and I assisted the Washington D.C. Metropolitan Police Department (MPD) with two search warrants involving the possible sexual exploitation of children. During the course of the search warrants, numerous documents were discovered which appeared to be concerned with international trafficking in children, high tech transfer to the United Kingdom, and international transfer of currency.


[...]


The individual further advised me of circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity of the Finders had become a CIA internal matter.
Scanned documents (requires login to view)


The infamous Marion Pettie and his "Seekers/Finders"...
Unfortunately, the US Customs report reference to "an internal CIA matter" is merely hearsay, not documentation of CIA involvement in investigating such matters - unless you have a declassified CIA reference to Pettie and his group?

The source documents can be accessed, without a login, here:
http://tinyurl.com/3zsbme
(skilluminati site)

and lots of tasty innuendo here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00344.html
 

Roy Harrold

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Before this thread morphs into a discussion of "The Finders"/"Project Monarch"/MK-ultra zombies - let me attempt to cut to the chase...

Shadow - is it your opinion that "Paul Bishop" was really working "on behalf of the CIA" when he contacted Noreen Gosch?

I thought your previous reference to him was quite rational, but you haven't answered my question as to your opinion on what he was really "up to" at that time?
 

dorca the just

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Something’s been bothering me here for the past several days, which I’m not sure has been raised previously. If it has, I apologize and ask for the All-Father’s forgiveness.
The problem for me is the interrelationship between two independent assumptions — namely that the Gosch and Martin cases are so inextricably linked that the same perps are responsible for both disappearances, and that Gosch Sr. had something to do with his son’s kidnapping and degradation.
As for the former, I can definitely see the relationship given the nature of the two victims and the manner in which they each disappeared, right down to the fact that they were both alone on the mornings they were taken, and that only their papers were ever really found.
As for the latter, the claim is that Gosch Sr. started getting a series of weird, short phone calls just weeks prior to JG’s disappearance. The last one supposedly came in the dead of night just hours before the boy was to have set out on his route. Lo and behold, JG disappeared the very first time he was not with his father. Ergo, the logic runs that these short phone calls were contacts between Gosch Sr. and the abductors, which is why the kidnapping was able to be done so professionally and so neatly. In other words, the father knew the son would be alone, he informed the kidnappers, and they took him.
But then, if JG and EM are inextricably linked, who was the familial contact between the perps and any member of EM’s family? EM’s stepbrother wasn’t with the boy for the first time ever, and this happened to be the very day EM was caused to disappear. Are we to assume the stepbrother was somehow involved, or are we to assume that Gosch Sr. also had a hand in this kid’s abduction? If so, where’s the evidence? Was there somehow a connection between the Gosch and Martin families that existed before the latter boy was taken?
While I’m at it, I have another problem. Gosch Sr. was supposed to have been the first person from the Gosch family ever to be in touch with Paul Bonacci with regard to his confession that he had a hand in the abduction of the Gosch boy. Gosch Sr. supposedly passed off another woman as NG when he went to visit Bonacci, who just happened to be accompanied by John Decamp. NG supposedly didn’t find out about this until some time in late ’91. Yet one year later there was a CBS Evening News broadcast about the Gosch case ten years later, and as far as I can recall, JG’s parents were still together, and there was no indication at that time that Gosch Sr. was part of the conspiracy. More importantly, NG didn’t divorce Gosch Sr. until some time in 1993, as I recall. I haven’t had a chance to read her book yet, so I’m wondering if anyone who has done so knows whether NG has addressed this time discrepancy, or indeed whether there was a previous connection between the Gosches and the Martins that existed prior to EM’s disappearance.
Otherwise, it seems to me that the simplest answer might just be the one we’re looking for. To wit, nobody in either the Gosch or Martin families had anything to do with the disappearance of these kids. Instead, the common denominator here is the fact that both boys were paperboys for the Des Moines Register, thus begging this question: Which person or persons were known to these boys prior to their disappearances, and is it at least remotely possible that this person was somehow affiliated with the Register in some fashion? Hell, I dunno, did they have any of the same customers? Mayhap the answer lies in that direction, and mayhap their corpses really are in Iowa somewhere. Mind you, I’m not saying that it didn’t happen the way NG, Jimmy Gibson, Paul Bonacci et al said they did. I’m just throwing things out there against the wall to see if they stick.

“We all have choices, and that’s the cold hard truth.”—George Jones
 

Insguru

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Dorca - Interesting point(s).

I agree that "if" Gosch Sr. was involved in Johnny's kidnapping, then the two cases are probably not linked. Perhaps the second one was a copycat crime, and the young Martin kid was simply at the wrong place at the wrong time when the kidnapper found him. This scenario is quite possible.

If however, the cases are indeed linked by the same perp(s), then it is likely that Gosch Sr. had no role in either, IMHO. I think your suggestion should be looked into regarding the newspaper company. I'm assuming both boys delivered for the same paper of course.

Bottom line, i believe that either both cases are indeed linked together, or it is a copycat perp that pulled off the Martin abduction. I do not think that it is two totally seperate abductions whereby the second perp was unaware of the Gosch kidnapping. Either he was copying it, or he was involved in both.
 
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