PARENTS KILLED AMBER ALERT ISSUED FOR 13-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER
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POLICE NEED PUBLIC'S HELP IN FINDING MISSING AND PREGNANT KIERRA COLES

Found Deceased IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #46

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by cybervampira, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. TL4S

    TL4S Well-Known Member

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    My interpretation was that he dragged her from where he parked, down the cornfield pull-off because it is basically dirt and grass, and then put her over his shoulder to take her into the corn rows, where maybe it was harder to drag her through. Just my guess.
     
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  2. Charliegizmo49

    Charliegizmo49 Well-Known Member

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    I am defensive when people use the term closure.

    I don’t believe families experience a positive closure.

    I believe each time they think of a loved one it’s akin to reopening a wound that never quite heals.

    The change to their lives never feels normal, it’s always like a black storm cloud following aptly, striking without warning. A scent, a flash of a loved ones favorite color, or an old friend can open a torrent of grief.

    I’ve seen families move on, mostly with devastating affects to siblings, cousins and close loved ones.

    A moments uncontrolled behavior by a murderer often kills much more than a victim.
    A killing has a detrimental affect, coming and going at will. I one heard it described like the wind. As it blows up all the emotions rise up, having to be addressed until the inevitable calm and life returns to a forced new normal.

    Families live with details of an autopsy report, the final moments of a Loved one.

    They struggle to understand what flaws a killer had to take another’s life. I’m not sure they ever understand and accept what Cruelty was put upon them. Families can ever be made whole.

    No, I don’t think there is genuine closure.


     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  3. Charliegizmo49

    Charliegizmo49 Well-Known Member

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    ,deleted by me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  4. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Bolded above.

    The only positive closure would be when a missing person walked back through the door, happy and unharmed.

    When families associated to tragic deaths refer to “closure” it’s definitely not positive. I take closure as meaning the total opposite of dealing with the absolute unknowns involving the disappearance of a missing person.

    Closure occurs when the family is provided factual information and even if it’s not positive, it enables the family to “turn the page” and begin to process the reality of the situation. Closure is necessary in order to begin to grieve.

    Closure is not closing out memory of the loved one — but it does close the state of indefinite limbo involving false hope while searching for answers that families of missing persons are faced with.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  5. jillycat

    jillycat Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry to see this perpetrator sucking resources and time and energy in a trial and likely appealing to blackouts/blocking/yada yada, and claims of not understanding things or making Mollie responsible for not saying "Leave me alone" plainly enough. Or whatever his defense will be.

    As for 'closure', our society is obsessed with this idea, along with stages, grief on an imaginary linear course, and 'moving on', as if the bereaved are trains leaving a station. None of these ideas are remotely useful to real people who have to integrate traumatic loss into their lives and bear it every day. The Tibbetts family now lives in a different world than anyone else they'll ever meet, other than other families of loved ones who were murdered, and even then, it's so unique to each family and each member of that family. Because who you lost is unique. And how you relate to that forever absence is unique. They're the only ones who can define any of these ideas for themselves, if they even choose to use these terms. Megan Devine, who writes about grief, and in my observation is one of the few credible people doing such writing, once said that "Some things can't be fixed. They can only be carried." That's how it is. Every day.
     
  6. Al Hoffman

    Al Hoffman For Ashley Andrews and Murray

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    I agree totally with you on this point, that he dragged her from the car towards the corn field. At some point, this became too difficult, so he hefted her over his shoulder like a sack of feed, and walked through the corn rows, her body and his shoulders pushing aside the thinner corn tops, his slender frame slipping through the rows.

    The only fine splitting of hairs left to "sluth" is did he drag her as a professional fire fighter would, his front to her back and his arms around her torso as he walked backwards, dragging her heels along the ground as he was on foot (his)?

    Firefighters use this drag, because it is the most efficient way to drag a limp body you can't carry. If light enough, over the shoulder works well. BTW, I have worked with "small" frame Phillopino and Latino men who can carry close to their body weigh, or more, over their shoulders. Back in the day (1950's to mid-60's) this is how Stevedores and Longshoremen off loaded cargo from ships, by hand).

    This, presumably, preferable to his having dragged her "by car". This meaning that he drove the car with his right hand, holding the foot of the now bloody body with his left hand while dragging it along. This as he drove up the service access road between the corn fields, to the drop site patch of corn, only then carrying the body to and through the rows, (I grew up in Louisiana, and you would be shocked at what you see people transport this way, including oldChristmas trees dragged up to the dump, and Livestock on a lead.)

    OR. did he flop her body from the trunk on to the ground (or rape and kill her on the service road behind the car), and then drag her, while pulling on a single leg held by the foot, to the edge of the corn rows? (Lilerally "by foot")

    Parse the few words in the warrant all you want. At this point, this is the equivalent of attempting to understand the entirety of ancient Egypt solely by the writing on the Rosetta Stone!

    LE is sitting on a veritable mountain of evidence that we may learn about at trial or at pre-trial hearings, or maybe never.

    Only time will tell.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  7. Charliegizmo49

    Charliegizmo49 Well-Known Member

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    I think there are degrees of closure. It seems to be a word used by those of us who are not part of the family. A comfort word of sorts.

    I have seen to many families who struggle with acceptance and never understanding the “why”. Some families are stronger than others. But none ever have closur to the closure to move on in a healthy way. Most are scarred forever. And none ever get over the violence that was never welcomed into their lives. Certain members do better than others, but most are scarred forever.
     
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  8. Confusion

    Confusion Creative Spelling Expert

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    I don't believe he ever dragged her by her foot/feet. For one thing, it would have been a very awkward way to do it, and for another, the affidavit says ON foot, not BY foot. MOO
     
  9. pontefract

    pontefract Member

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    The only closure is the passage of time.
     
  10. Al Hoffman

    Al Hoffman For Ashley Andrews and Murray

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    Again, parse away all you want at the limited info and sparse words contained in the arrest warrant. It is not the Constitution, where every word matters, and in which almost every word was decided by a committee of brilliant men.

    The warrant was pounded out by a tired cop, on the fly, and likely with input from his multu-agency colleagues. At that, it is a remarkable document for its brevity, accuracy and deliberate vagueness.

    I am simply positing possible scenarios, of what may have happened. You, of course, are free to also spin your own vision of what went down that night.

    So we agree then that the warrant implies that CR was walking when he dragged the body, and not using the car? So, did he drag her by grabbing her arms and pulling? Or a more efficient Fireman's drag?

    Does any of this really matter?

    Obviously, somehow CR transported the body from the car to between the rows, some distance into the corn field. Maybe he walked along on his feet, while levitating the body using his brujo powers. Perhaps he practices Santeria as an alternative to his now presumed Roman Catholic faith? Did CR have a Santeria alter in the trailer? Could MT have actually been a human blood sacrifice made to the god Ogon by CR to bless and protect drug shipments made by his MS-13 gang buddies? (JIMHOO!!)

    BTW, on TV (certainly it can be viewed on line) they show various Firefighter Olympic events.

    Part of the timed events, performed in FULL turnout kit (including an OBA - a breathing mask), include an obstical course that in turn involves dragging a full size, equlivent weight, human dummy 50 feet while breathing through a full face mask Scott Air Pack. It is amazing how fast and efficient those guys make dragging a human body on the ground look!

    I'm not married to much that I spin here, and am open to new ideas. What does it matter how he dragged her, she still was found in the field when CR lead LE there. And that will be his eventual undoing. Rewarded with an all expense paid lifetime stay at the Graybar Hotel!

    Again all JIMHIOO!!!!!!
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  11. Kaylas

    Kaylas Active Member

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    I agree that it’s awful CR will suck up so many resources with his attempt to not understand...or blocking out.

    One thing is for sure: No means no. Body language conveys No. CR has been in Iowa long enough to understand when a person wants him to scram.

    It will be evident that Mollie is a victim. Not CR.
    Prosecutors will find witnesses that can giving concrete examples that CR knew when a person wanted to be left alone. IMO.

    This guy isn’t naive.
     
  12. MistyWaters

    MistyWaters Well-Known Member

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    Oh I think I understand now. In missing persons cases the word “closure” most often refers to closure of the uncertainty for the reason their loved one disappeared. Not closure because they’ve been found dead.

    In cases where a person is missing for a prolonged period, this process is described as ambiguous loss. There is no resolution or closure to enable a person to move on. This is further intensified by the person holding on to hope of a happy reunion with their loved one or even simply learning what had happened and why the person went missing in the first place.”
    What it really feels like when a loved one goes missing

    It also closure of sorts knowing it was CR who was involved in Mollie’s death as opposed to rumours and speculation that undoubtedly were circulating around the community. Even just recalling some of the theories tossed around on these threads while she was missing - she just took off, maybe took up with a new fling, friends covered up for her death due to partying, it was a coworker, another student, neighbour or friends of her boyfriend or someone even closer directly connected to her.

    Any time someone goes missing any of these possibilities could be true and statistics support the likelihood someone close to the victim is responsible as well. So it’s also closure for the family to know exactly who was involved and for others to not be regarded with suspicion.

    Other examples of families seeking closure:
    Loved ones looking for closure: Missing Persons Week launches in Sask. | CBC News

    Police seek closure for missing persons
     
  13. Confusion

    Confusion Creative Spelling Expert

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    That was a lot of words to tell me that my opinion doesn't matter! ;) I agree that it doesn't matter how he dragged her, just that he did. The same is true for many other things I read (and write) here. I don't really care/worry about how he dragged her, but I do believe the affidavit was just saying he was on foot when he did it. I usually try to leave out the more morbid parts of my scenarios because I'd hate to have a family member of a victim coming here some day and reading all the gory details people can imagine but which never happened in most cases. As much as I dislike reading about the morbid fantasies of others, I dislike even more being mocked and belittled for trying to stick to facts that have been given to us.

    I don't believe it matters how she was moved from the car to the field, but I know many people are more detail oriented than I am. I also know it's more important to others than to me exactly how she was murdered (hacked, sliced, stabbed, etc.) My main concerns are where she was injured and where she died (which county/jurisdiction), what may have affected his state of mind (nothing she said or did caused him to do what he did, but something happened to make him choose that day to do it), what other holes there are in his defense of 'not remembering' and why he picked her rather than one of the other females who jog in the area. It's too late to help MT, but anything that can be learned from her death may bring us one step closer to preventing another. MOO
     
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  14. Alethea

    Alethea Verified Attorney

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    @Confusion I think you have a good point. It might not matter in terms of the affidavit but at trial the prosecution will want to illustrate what happened for the jury. Jurors want to feel confident that they understand what happened and then they apply the law to the facts and see if the elements are met. I don’t think the state would shrug and say well we just don’t know how it happened. They are going to stand up there and paint a very specific picture of how he callously threw precious Mollie over his shoulder like a bag of potatoes and trudged into the cornfields. We’ll see how descriptive or dramatic these prosecutors are. But the details will matter!
     
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  15. Confusion

    Confusion Creative Spelling Expert

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    I agree that all details will matter in court, but since we don't have all of the facts here, or any of the actual evidence, the "details" we come up with aren't always the part of the cases I choose to deal with, while others sometimes almost scare me with the details of torture, savagery, cruelty, and sometimes downright nauseating things they can imagine one person doing to another. The things that draw me here are who did it (we know that), where, when, why and to some extent how. I want to know how he could overcome her, how he could know what to do and where to do it. There were many places he could have grabbed her, many days/nights he could have done it, many places he could have left her body, many stories he could have told LE, and so many other things that many don't care about but I want to know in order for it all to make some kind of sense (which it probably never did and never will.)

    My biggest questions are some which have answers that we'll probably never know. Like: Why did he choose that night over the other times he saw her? Did he know she was staying alone? Did something else happen to set him off that day? Did he just happen to find her in the right place when no traffic was coming and decided to go for it? Was there something significant about the cornfield where she was left? Why not do whatever he did and leave her in the cornfield where she was taken? Did he really try running with her and think she wouldn't find that strange) or was he just running after her to catch up? Did he actually run after her at all? All of these things, and so much more are what I'm trying to figure out. I do a lot more speculation when the missing person is still missing, but now that I know where she was and in what condition, I try to use whatever facts we're given to come up with what I believe led to her being there.

    I try to skip over the blood and guts type posts, I hope all of you can skip over my fact checking, parsing, nitpicking posts. Thanks. :confused:
     
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  16. FrostedGlass

    FrostedGlass Active Member

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    I noticed on the arrest warrant LE does not refer to a "body" until the very end. You see "he put her in the trunk", "he went to get her out of the trunk"& "he dragged Tibbets on foot".

    Typically in reporting, after a person dies, they are referred to as a body. So that makes me wonder at what point that happened for Mollie. I tend to think she was alive when he got her out of the trunk and she resisted going to the first spot.
     
  17. CuriousCricket

    CuriousCricket Well-Known Member

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    Just as the words and details will matter in front of a jury, they have mattered to many of us who have attempted to take the few details and envision how things might have happened. Our details are meager. However, by the time trial rolls around, the prosecutors will have enough information to be able to lead the jury step-by-step down 385th and into the cornfield.
     
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  18. Charliegizmo49

    Charliegizmo49 Well-Known Member

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    I agree.

    The trial is going to do many things. First it will tear off the scabs of friends and family who are in the midst of healing.

    Second, I believe that Rivera had a long history of unusual/criminal behavior. I will be surprised if he went from zero to kidnapping/ murder with MT as his first aberrant act.

    Third, the details are going to be painful for everyone. Mollie went through hell the last hour of her life.

    Fourth, the facts surrounding the condition of her remains is going to be difficult for the prosecutors to share, and difficult for a judge, jury and those listening in court. I’m not certain a defense attorney will be able to effectively mitigate the reality of an ALL AMERICAN GIRL ROTTING ON THE DIRT IN A CORNFIELD.

    Fifth, if he sexually assaulted her, that alone will deeply sicken most people. Dalton Jack and Mollies parents will be most severely affected.

    Each of us will imagine the terror if the physical assault along with violent images of what she may have felt. Did she fight, we all will be told if there’s evidence to support it.

    Last the pain and psychological thoughts she must have experienced from the “sharp object” Rivera used to stab her. The pain, the slow loss of consciousness and the realization that Mollie had when she realized she was dying.

    All that and more will make Mollie Tibbets much more than a name we will remember.
     
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  19. Charliegizmo49

    Charliegizmo49 Well-Known Member

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    I estimated expenses for the searc, trial and incarceration for about 54 years to be nearly


    $9,000,000.00

    Instead hungry children could be fed

    Abused kids could be housed

    Roads could be repaired

    Schools could be fixed

    Additional police and fire could be hired

    Seniors could be fed, and cared for with respect.

    Young adults could go to training or college. Our future could be brighter.

    And your suggestion???
     
  20. SteveP

    SteveP Well-Known Member

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    I don't follow here every day anymore, so I may have missed the point of this post, but these are not the days of the wild west, and we do not advocate vigilante justice. We cannot just turn CR loose on the streets and let the public handle him, no matter how appealing that may seem. Iowa does not have the death penalty, so there are limited options. CR can be found not guilty at trial, and turned loose to very possibly kill again, or he can be held accountable for Mollie's murder, and kept behind bars for a period of several years, or, if convicted of 1st degree murder, the rest of his life. IMO, whatever money it takes to prevent him from ever seeing another day of freedom is money well-spent. JMO
     

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