IA IA - Rose Burkert, 22, & Roger Atkison, 32, Williamsburg, 12 Sept 1980

[4SAM]

Going on the scenario that Roger was killed first and Rose walked in after the fact: Could the police determine from the blood splatter if blood was found under Rose (she laid down on Rogers blood) or if there was an "outline" of blood around her. Hope that makes sense what i am trying to ask. Also, with the swings, could it be determined if the person was left handed or right handed?

 

[mcbrainder]

All good scenarios but I do think it seems too organized for someone who didn't even know where they'd be until they got there, unless he was sloppy and got lucky. I can buy him being let into the room. If Rose is out and he knocks, logically Roger would think Rose was at the door and run to open it. But our killer doesn't know that will happen. He would be taking quite a risk, unless Roger and killer got into an argument about Rose, killer kills Roger (maybe not even deliberately), panics and runs to his vehicle to grab the weapon, knowing he'd have to kill Rose.

Now, I can get onboard with Rose's body being placed in the bed, but Roger held his hands over his head while laying flat on his stomach and tried to defend his head, which is why there were severed fingers. Roger had to have been killed while lying flat and so given that, I personally think Rose was too. If Rose's body was moved, the blood should have told that story (Unless this detail was omitted) and if she was forced to lay next to him, I think she would have screamed loud enough to draw attention.

There's still the possibility that there actually were two people there that night. Unfortunately, we'll never know who all considered Roger an enemy, but there was some suspicion placed on the crew Roger worked with. It was mentioned in articles but never more. I figure they must have been mentioned for a reason. I suspect that LE probably turned over a few people who had it out for him from the crew. Regarding being followed from work, the crew had the best opportunity. If that was the case, could the average person hate someone so much for cheating, that he'd kill Roger and an innocent bystander so brutally and in such a high risk way?

I wish I could go back and see this happen, as traumatic as it would probably be. I've actually had nightmares that I was there and saw it and couldn't prevent it, but it's always playing out how I imagine it with different suspects. I've probably been looking at this too long. I really hope DNA comes back on this someday.

 

[supergirl_nc]

Going on the scenario that Roger was killed first and Rose walked in after the fact: Could the police determine from the blood splatter if blood was found under Rose (she laid down on Rogers blood) or if there was an "outline" of blood around her. Hope that makes sense what i am trying to ask. Also, with the swings, could it be determined if the person was left handed or right handed?

What you're asking makes complete sense. I would think with head would as extensive as they report the bed would be soaked with blood and any splatter from Roger would be layered under Rose's own blood. From What I've read, many details have never been released so forensically it's just guesses for us.

 

[supergirl_nc]

All good scenarios but I do think it seems too organized for someone who didn't even know where they'd be until they got there, unless he was sloppy and got lucky. I can buy him being let into the room. If Rose is out and he knocks, logically Roger would think Rose was at the door and run to open it. But our killer doesn't know that will happen. He would be taking quite a risk, unless Roger and killer got into an argument about Rose, killer kills Roger (maybe not even deliberately), panics and runs to his vehicle to grab the weapon, knowing he'd have to kill Rose.

Now, I can get onboard with Rose's body being placed in the bed, but Roger held his hands over his head while laying flat on his stomach and tried to defend his head, which is why there were severed fingers. Roger had to have been killed while lying flat and so given that, I personally think Rose was too. If Rose's body was moved, the blood should have told that story (Unless this detail was omitted) and if she was forced to lay next to him, I think she would have screamed loud enough to draw attention.

There's still the possibility that there actually were two people there that night. Unfortunately, we'll never know who all considered Roger an enemy, but there was some suspicion placed on the crew Roger worked with. It was mentioned in articles but never more. I figure they must have been mentioned for a reason. I suspect that LE probably turned over a few people who had it out for him from the crew. Regarding being followed from work, the crew had the best opportunity. If that was the case, could the average person hate someone so much for cheating, that he'd kill Roger and an innocent bystander so brutally and in such a high risk way?

I wish I could go back and see this happen, as traumatic as it would probably be. I've actually had nightmares that I was there and saw it and couldn't prevent it, but it's always playing out how I imagine it with different suspects. I've probably been looking at this too long. I really hope DNA comes back on this someday.

If she walked in and found Roger laying on the bed, I would think her first response would've been to rush over kneeling on the open side of the bed to check if he's alive, shake him or just be by his side distraught. Maybe then the killer stepped out of the bathroom where he was hiding and struck her from behind. If you look at the drawn layout of the crime scene, roses body looks to be facing Roger.

 

[supergirl_nc]

Regardless of the scenario, I would think the bodies are not in the original positions they were killed in, even if the were only moved slightly. Most agree that the bedspread was placed after the murders. But for that to happen the bedspread would have to be pulled out from under the victims unless it was on the floor for some reason. The only reason that I would think the bedspread would have been mostly or completely off the bed was is Rose and Roger had already had sex. But if that was the case, I would think it would've initially been reported that there were signs of sexual encounter even if to later rule it out because it was with Roger.

 

[4SAM]

No cameras right? The killer even though he cleaned up in the bathroom should still have had blood on his clothes. Astonished no one heard anything or saw anything. I wonder if the cops ever restaged the room and tried to recreate the scene. Also, were there any other murders or missing people in the area after this?

 

[CursSleuth]

Maybe one day we'll gonna know blood was found in the floor and that changes alot of things we are envisaging. As I once said, it is pitty we do not have access to some police reports like the person who runs a website concerning the Keddie Murders that happened in Plumas County, CA where he offers alot of police documents and even the autopsy reports. Being like this is only guessing and nothing more.

Suppose one day we're gonna find that Roger's hands were full of soap residues with bits of it in his nails... there goes our theories about soap bits...

 

[CursSleuth]

No cameras right? The killer even though he cleaned up in the bathroom should still have had blood on his clothes. Astonished no one heard anything or saw anything. I wonder if the cops ever restaged the room and tried to recreate the scene. Also, were there any other murders or missing people in the area after this?

Cameras, 4SAM? We're talking of 1980. Not even some banks had cameras in those times let alone a small motel within Williamsburg, Iowa.
There was a similar murder prior to this case. Please check one of my replies.

 

[CursSleuth]

Regardless of the scenario, I would think the bodies are not in the original positions they were killed in, even if the were only moved slightly. Most agree that the bedspread was placed after the murders. But for that to happen the bedspread would have to be pulled out from under the victims unless it was on the floor for some reason. The only reason that I would think the bedspread would have been mostly or completely off the bed was is Rose and Roger had already had sex. But if that was the case, I would think it would've initially been reported that there were signs of sexual encounter even if to later rule it out because it was with Roger.

Does not seem they had any sexual activity before being killed. The time lapse is too short. But your theory is quite good. Roger perhaps was killed on the bed before Rose came from the bar and when she enters the room, the killer grabs her or smothers her, takes her to the bed besides Roger and blow her away in the head with a small axe or something.

 

[4SAM]

I know 1980, but boy wouldn't it have been great to have CCTV back then. Glad for some modern technology that we have today.

 

[mysterymike]

I just read several older articles on this case and made several notes of interests below from the combined articles I read. Many facts I had not known til now. Some of the facts below could possibly change some parts of the theories I have been thinking in this case.

Below are parts of each article I noted from I read:

[FONT=&quot]The two checked into the Holiday lnn at about 7 p.m. Friday, authorities said, and apparently were attacked as they slept. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Investigation continues today into [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the grisly murder of a Missouri man and woman as they slept Friday night or early Saturday.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The pair was murdered in an upstairs room at the Holiday Inn, a room where access is gained from inside the building. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dr. Stacey Howell, Iowa County Medical Examiner. Asked if the injuries were consistent with those that could be inflicted by an ax, Howell said, "That’s been the common rumor, but I don’t know the particular reason why it should be, rather than some other kind of instrument." [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Another source close to the investigation said both were struck in identical places on the back of the head. At least four or five times each. The source likened it to an execution-style killing. "It was as if they had been ordered to lie down on their stomachs and then struck. They were crushing, sharp wounds." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Spurrier said lawmen have traced the two to Kahoka, Mo., and it is believed they were en route to the Little Amana area between 5 and 7:30p.m. last Friday on Highway 218 and Interstate 80. They were driving Burkert's car. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Room 260 is the last room on the right. The hallway to it stretches so long that the ceiling appears to lower, the walls to narrow. It seems a remote place, a room of last resort. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kahoka, Mo., is where Roger had spent the last week away from home installing telephones for General Telephone Co. and sleeping nights with his mistress, Rose. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]At some point during the evening, room service made a delivery. Either Roger or Rose moved their car from a handicapped zone sometime after 9 p.m. Rose may have stopped briefly in the motel’s bar. There were three phone calls: two to or from Rose’s babysitter back home, and a third, never identified. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Guests in neighboring rooms saw no sinister person or persons slipping in or out the motel’s back exit that was close at hand. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Multiple blows from a sharp, ax-like implement with a 3 1/2-inch blade. The weapon likely was a roofer’s hatchet, or maybe even some kind of machete. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Iowa County Sheriff James Slockett, who places the time of death at about midnight.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There was no sign of a forced entry, no sign of struggle. Chairs had been positioned as if the killer or killers had insisted on a chat before the fatal blows. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the bathroom, toothpaste had been splattered around, and blood stained the sink where the ax-wielder washed up. A message was scrawled on the bathroom door in white motel soap, then wiped almost indecipherable. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The dead couple’s belongings were rifled, and money stolen. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The two murder cases, so close together in time, have much in common. Both happened in motels on interstates, without a forced entry or a struggle; money was[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]taken and toothpaste splattered in both; a “Do Not Disturb” sign was left dangling outside each motel door; both involved ax-like bludgeoning to the back of the head. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Bob Horton, sergeant of detectives for the Galesburg Police Department best candidate for the murders was itinerant Raymundo Esparza.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The telephone company crew Roger was working with and Rose’s babysitter also made it known back home that the two were going to spend the weekend in Amana.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anyone seeking revenge likely could have found them, says Slockett. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rose had walked into the St. Joseph Police Department in the weeks before the murder and announced that a former boyfriend would be responsible if she were ever murdered. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The bartender at the Holiday Inn had been working at the motel and living in his pickup out in the parking lot. The day after the murder he vanished, leaving a paycheck behind. His truck was later found abandoned in Iowa City. Slockett says it took nine tries before investigators concluded the bartender finally passed polygraph testing. In the end, the bartender said he fled because he feared that his lifestyle and his pickup home would implicate him in the murders. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Charles Hatcher was seen in Omaha during the time frame that would have made him able to be at the Amana motel the day of the murders. Slockett concedes that the bartender and the serial-killing relative most likely are diversions in the case. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Larry [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Atkison [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and his wife, Elizabeth, believes one scenario of the ax murders places suspicion on Roger's wife, Marcella, or her family, the Hatchers. At the time of the murder, they say, Roger's marriage was on the rocks. He wanted a divorce. She only barely managed to keep Roger in the marriage by using the Bible, they say. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Three things stick in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Atkison’s[/FONT][FONT=&quot] mind: the day before Roger's murder, Marcella stopped at their home and, uncharacteristically, broke down crying. "Did she know something was going to happen?" Larry now asks. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Larry and Elizabeth are quick to note, too, that Marcella stood to cash in on life insurance policies. And they can’t get out of their mind that chairs were pulled up to the bed at the motel room murder scene as if people who knew one another were engaged in conversation. "Somebody, more than one person, sat there and talked before they did it," says Larry. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Roger had called his wife to say he was staying over in Kahoka, Mo., until his[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]phone installing job was completed the next week. Marcella emphasizes she did not know that Roger had a girlfriend or that she had joined him in Kahoka, Mo., by midweek. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The wrongful-death lawsuit Marcella filed against the Holiday Inn for poor security,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]indicated that Roger's estate included payments of $49,287, $20,320 and $71,000 from insurance companies. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There’s the witness who thought he saw a third person riding with Roger and Rose [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]when they stopped for gasoline on their way to Amana; and another who thought he[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]might have seen a car following them out of Missouri. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And there’s the one partial fingerprint, maybe a killer’s, lifted from Rose’s personal property at the murder scene. The print has been sent across the country, without success, in hunt of a match, says Slockett.[/FONT]

 

[4SAM]

Killed while sleeping can't be right, Rose was fully clothed.

 

[mcbrainder]

Thanks for posting all those details mysterymike. I agree that the detail of being fully clothed contradicts the idea of killing in their sleep and without a forced entry, that would mean the killer somehow had access to the room. The sheet being pulled over after their death is also an interesting point previously made.

I always wondered about the mention of a gas station attendant saying they looked as if they were being followed and then another saying they looked as if they had another person with them. Whether it was half-brother or someone from Roger's side, either Rose or Roger should have recognized anyone who made a stop in the same place, unless the followers had been VERY cautious.

I did want to dismiss the rumor of Rose's mother being the babysitter. She wasn't.

A few other things I learned: Rose lived alone with her daughter at this point in time.

Shortly before Rose gave birth to her daughter, half-brother forced her to move in with him and his wife. Rose's friend also believes that Rose's daughter does resemble her half-brother. I was given the name of the man who Rose claimed was the father though. I wonder if he was completely out of the picture. Obviously, he didn't push for custody.

Rose's actual mother was not in her life. Supposedly Rose couldn't stand her. She was abusive. Her step-mom she adored. I no longer believe her step-mother knows the truth, but I do believe her half brother's wife does. The people who raised Rose's daughter never pursued justice and Rose's daughter won't talk to anyone about this other than her own family. When Rose's friend tried to talk to the half-brother and wife, they refused to discuss anything.

I always think one of the most suspicious things a person can do, and one of the things to observe in all major players in something like this, is to look for who has NOT tried to pursue the truth. It's interesting how uninterested they were and additionally, how they refused to talk to those who were interested.

 

[mysterymike]

Killed while sleeping can't be right, Rose was fully clothed.

Those were actually quotes from the news articles immediately after the murders itself, so back then it had just happened and they were just going on the assumption that they were killed in their sleep. That was before they actually knew very much about the murders since it had just happened.

As you read down the list the quotes from articles get newer.

 

[CursSleuth]

I always think one of the most suspicious things a person can do, and one of the things to observe in all major players in something like this, is to look for who has NOT tried to pursue the truth. It's interesting how uninterested they were and additionally, how they refused to talk to those who were interested.

Interesting fact that was felt by the Police in Boulder, CO when assisting and working the Jon Benet case. The parents did not wanted to cooperate with police despite her daughter been brutally murdered. Recently, advanced DNA testing seems it puts down the parents and the son as the murderers. Nevertheless is always curious the family of the victims sometimes won't cooperate or do not care about who was the perpertrator. The same aplies to those that make a false confession of murders that they hadn't committed...

 

[CursSleuth]

[FONT=&amp]

The bartender at the Holiday Inn had been working at the motel and living in his pickup out in the parking lot. The day after the murder he vanished, leaving a paycheck behind. His truck was later found abandoned in Iowa City. Slockett says it took nine tries before investigators concluded the bartender finally passed polygraph testing. In the end, the bartender said he fled because he feared that his lifestyle and his pickup home would implicate him in the murders.

Don't you guys find this very odd? I mean, a guy runs away, leaving his paycheck behind and truck just because he thought he could be connected to the murders? Something doesn't quite fit in his attitude. Or the bartender was a real chicken ****? This could possible underline the arguing at the bar with Rose which may be rather much more important than just nothing.
[/FONT]

 

[4SAM]

I am wondering if the argument with the bartender was something like he thought she was attractive and when she said she wasn't interested and that she was there with her boyfriend, he made a rude comment about her being with some "old" guy.

 

[mysterymike]

[FONT=&amp]

Don't you guys find this very odd? I mean, a guy runs away, leaving his paycheck behind and truck just because he thought he could be connected to the murders? Something doesn't quite fit in his attitude. Or the bartender was a real chicken ****? This could possible underline the arguing at the bar with Rose which may be rather much more important than just nothing.
[/FONT]

It depends. If in fact Rose did have an encounter with the bartender, and he really wasn't the killer, then he really might have thought he would be blamed for something he didn't do and wanted to get the hell out of Dodge. He actually might have been the kind of person who just didn't want to deal with the publicity and being a suspect, especially knowing he had that argument with Rose and was also living in the hotel parking lot, so he just left.

On the other hand, yes, it could show evidence of guilt. It depends on the way you look at it.

 

[mysterymike]

I am wondering if the argument with the bartender was something like he thought she was attractive and when she said she wasn't interested and that she was there with her boyfriend, he made a rude comment about her being with some "old" guy.

It seems i've only read about an argument with the bartender in only one article. At this point, i'm not convinced it actually amounted to much. But until we know for sure, it's all a guessing game.

 

[mysterymike]

[FONT=&amp]Another source close to the investigation said both were struck in identical places on the back of the head. At least four or five times each. The source likened it to an execution-style killing. "It was as if they had been ordered to lie down on their stomachs and then struck. They were crushing, sharp wounds."[/FONT]

Let's examine this quote, for example.

In my opinion this destroys the "Roger killed while Rose was away" theory. This tells me they were both killed together with the "[FONT=&amp]struck in identical places on the back of the head[/FONT]" This more than likely wouldn't be the case if they were murdered separately.

At this point, I feel the killer/s may have used a gun to subdue the victims to the state they were found in, lying face down, and then attacked them. It could be that the victims didn't think they would be killed in such a way, or even killed at all.

Of course, just a theory.