ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

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jcamh

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Thinking of his 12 trips in the King Road area late at night makes me think of something his downstairs neighbor said - she made a point of saying he was a night owl, up all night. Whenever he would come home, his headlights shone into her apartment and she would know he was home. I can't help but think that he was stalking KG and MM and others at other locations, too, like the Mad Greek or their sorority house. If you are obsessed with someone, just going by their house 12 times (which equals about 3 times a month during the fall semester) is not enough times to feed an obsession.
 

10ofRods

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I think that’s what happened—a quick jab to the face followed by a stab. JMO
Right hand distraction, upper left cut to the liver? (I can't believe I'm learning about boxing; I can't believe how brutal boxing and kickboxing actually are; very many injuries).
 

Lyanna

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We can pick up secured ones too. Connecting to a secured wifi connection requires a password to log on, but both secured and unsecured networks require users to log on. Having said that, AFAIK no one has ever said that BK's phone connected to the wifi at 1122 King Road.

Kind of related, sort of. So just jumping off your post.


On 11th August 2022 Pullman PD recieved a report that someone's airpods connected to the reporting person's phone and could see their location. Not got a clue how that would happen and kinda creepy - moo.
Maybe LE could link BK to King Rd residence wifi through other techy type items as well as his phone?
 

Dialectic

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I know that previously in the thread I mentioned alternative reasons that BK might have traveled frequently to Moscow, but IMO it is so very incriminating that he apparently stopped going altogether after Nov. 14th. I guess the defense could argue he was too scared after the murders, but any alternative reason he might have had for repeated nighttime visits to Moscow wouldn't have simply disappeared after the murders (i.e., a relationship, friendship, a specific restaurant / food he could only get there).

While I agree that it appears suspicious, he was a student at WSU with midterms, projects, and finals looming. Many college students hunker down and 'disappear' during the last 3 or four weeks of the semester. I know I did!

That being said, I believe he was able to avoid going back to Moscow to relive the murders because he was able to relive it via MSM and SM. His obsession was fulfilled that way instead. Otherwise, I doubt he would have been able to stop himself from going back. The fact that his phone pinged on the cell tower in Moscow at 9am the next morning before the news was plastered everywhere, makes me believe he 'needed' to know what was happening.
 

Mad Hettie

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What do people think/know to be the functional range of a cell phone tower?

Where I am it seems to be well over ten miles, so someone's phone pinging a known tower doesn't give any clue about them being in a specific neighborhood.

Obviously other sensors can give more precise location: gps, cameras, etc. But if his 12 visits are based only on pinging a tower, what does that really tell us?

(I'm not suggesting that I believe he was in the area for any innocuous reason, especially given the late hours which would rule out, say, using the UofI library or going on a normal date. Just trying to narrow down whether those pings actually *prove* his phone was right there in the immediate neighborhood.)

MOO

ETA: @Ghostwheel GMTA!

So, I’ve been going down this rabbit hole and finally thought I had enough information in my head to try a theory similar to this with my husband, a highly paid programmer and long time geek. As it turns out, most of the time when they look at this data they are looking at a triangle of pings between various cell towers and creating a map out of that. Their ability to track your location is so accurate that if there are enough cell towers, someone using this technology could find you walking down a street or on the 6th floor of a building.

Of course I argued, because I had just enough information to be dangerous (meaning make myself look a fool).
My husband still doesn’t know I think he was right, but now you do. Lol
 

10ofRods

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What do people think/know to be the functional range of a cell phone tower?

Where I am it seems to be well over ten miles, so someone's phone pinging a known tower doesn't give any clue about them being in a specific neighborhood.

Obviously other sensors can give more precise location: gps, cameras, etc. But if his 12 visits are based only on pinging a tower, what does that really tell us?

(I'm not suggesting that I believe he was in the area for any innocuous reason, especially given the late hours which would rule out, say, using the UofI library or going on a normal date. Just trying to narrow down whether those pings actually *prove* his phone was right there in the immediate neighborhood.)

MOO

ETA: @Ghostwheel GMTA!

That's why they use a technique called "triangulation" 0r with more than 3 variables. In a town like Moscow, not only possible but impossible not to. There were various cell towers all about, each of them picking up pings/distant or not.

From this data (and the exact distances between multiple towers) it gets accurate.

Not as accurate, in my understanding, as GPS. But that's still to come. Every time a person turns on an Android or an Iphone, their phone is connected to satellite/GPS even if location services are turned off.
 

Mad Hettie

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So, I’ve been going down this rabbit hole and finally thought I had enough information in my head to try a theory similar to this with my husband, a highly paid programmer and long time geek. As it turns out, most of the time when they look at this data they are looking at a triangle of pings between various cell towers and creating a map out of that. Their ability to track your location is so accurate that if there are enough cell towers, someone using this technology could find you walking down a street or on the 6th floor of a building.

Of course I argued, because I had just enough information to be dangerous (meaning make myself look a fool).
My husband still doesn’t know I think he was right, but now you do. Lol

However, there aren’t enough cell towers in that area to be so accurate that they can completely pinpoint anyone’s exact location.
 

10ofRods

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I agree with you. It could very well be that he was in the area for legitimate reasons, and that being in the area is how he first crossed paths with the victims. It is easy to forget that we don't know what we don't know - meaning, there may be all kinds of people talking to LE but not the media. Romantic partner, friend, drug dealer, who knows. MOO

Drug dealer is not legitimate, though.

And still a possibility.
 

Pretty Go Pale

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Thinking of his 12 trips in the King Road area late at night makes me think of something his downstairs neighbor said - she made a point of saying he was a night owl, up all night. Whenever he would come home, his headlights shone into her apartment and she would know he was home. I can't help but think that he was stalking KG and MM and others at other locations, too, like the Mad Greek or their sorority house. If you are obsessed with someone, just going by their house 12 times (which equals about 3 times a month during the fall semester) is not enough times to feed an obsession.
I suspect he was also able to feed the obsession via social media.
 

Kemug

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Hello!
Question for attorneys: If through several conversations with defense attorney BK were to confess (or it would become clear that he did commit the alleged crimes), what responsibility does she have to defend her client? Can she choose to recluse herself from the case? Has that ever occurred before? Can you explain it like I’m 7 years old? Thanks ;)
Hi all, I've been following, but not commenting on this so tragic case. However I just thought I'd comment on this post. I don't know about the US, but when Xander Bylsma was on trial for 2 murders in South Africa in 2020, his defence lawyer recused himself at the start of the trial "due to a conflict of interest" - after a sound recording of Xander "making certain admissions" came to light. So it can certainly happen in SA.
 
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r3d-ros3

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While I agree that it appears suspicious, he was a student at WSU with midterms, projects, and finals looming. Many college students hunker down and 'disappear' during the last 3 or four weeks of the semester. I know I did!

That being said, I believe he was able to avoid going back to Moscow to relive the murders because he was able to relive it via MSM and SM. His obsession was fulfilled that way instead. Otherwise, I doubt he would have been able to stop himself from going back. The fact that his phone pinged on the cell tower in Moscow at 9am the next morning before the news was plastered everywhere, makes me believe he 'needed' to know what was happening.
Absolutely! I agree on both accounts.
 

10ofRods

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I feel very strongly that if it was a KA-BAR, mask, gloves, or even bleach it would have been in the PCA.

But they don't know that yet. All they know is that he was there. Corporate Albertson's involved in delving into receipts.

Ongoing. Must be based on more than visuals. So, LE knows (and probably knew while the PCA was being prepared) exactly what he bought. Many reasons why it didn't need to be in the PCA. For one, they were probably in communication with the judge about his overall sense of what was needed to be in the PCA. Everyone has an interest in not revealing stuff until court convenes properly (Prelim then Trial).
 

Boxer

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RSBM.

Yes. IMO, our phones are frequently exchanging handshakes with cell towers to negotiate data transmissions on the network. The carrier’s algorithms take into account signal strength, network capacity and loading, backlog, and any number of other factors to optimize data communications on the network for a given device. If a device is in motion, traveling in a car going 65mph down a highway, for example, those handshakes will frequently result in the use of different towers for obvious reasons. But it can even happen when a device is relatively still or inside a residence for many reasons — moving from one end or floor of a house to another, where signal attenuation occurs due to the number of obstructions (walls, fireplaces, sheet metal, interfering devices, etc.) between the tower and the device, or an increase or decrease in bandwidth demand occurs, for just two examples.

IMO, these handshakes occur between the device and all towers within “earshot”. These handshakes are also time stamped. So a radius can be calculated with very good accuracy that indicates the distance between the device and the tower. So…f only a single tower is within range, the device could be anywhere on the circle defined by that radius. If two towers are within range the device would be at one of the two points where those circles overlap. Three or more towers in range will give an excellent indication of exactly where that device was located at that point in time.

This sort of data was instrumental in convicting Patrick Frazee of the murder of Kelsey Berreth. I suspect it will be instrumental here as well. LE is not going to lay out this degree of detail in the PCA. They’re just going to give the bottom line — they have evidence that his phone was near 1122 King at critical dates and times.

Again, all of the above is MOO.

ETA: Lost quotes.
Yes. MOO The WiFi router must keep a log of all events.
Detecting a device within range is an event.
 

Auntie Cipation

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@10ofRods and @Mad Hettie :

re triangulation via cell towers:

My area has only two towers and they are from differing companies.

When the triangulation you are referring to occurs, is it only using whichever company's tower you have service for, or is it any functioning tower nearby?

Our towers are Verizon and US Cellular.

I guess they can't triangulate with only two towers, but by drawing range radius circles around each tower that pings (like they did with KK's drive in the Frazee case, IIRC), they can narrow the phone's location down to two possible locations.

ETA: because I think the ping can also tell HOW FAR from the tower the phone was when it pinged? Otherwise my radius circle idea is defunct.
 

10ofRods

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Hi all, I've been following, but not commenting on this so tragic case. But just thought I'd comment on this post. I don't know about the US, but when Xander Bylsma was on trial for 2 murders in South Africa in 2020, his defence lawyer recused himself at the start of the trial "due to a conflict of interest" - after a sound recording of Xander "making certain admissions" came to light. So it can certainly happen in SA.

Was that defense attorney a public lawyer, appointed as part of their duties to a particular governmental unit? (In this case, the State of Idaho).

Idaho has a list of attorneys (public, free to the defendant) who can handle a death penalty case. They must qualify. Then one is assigned. Ms. Taylor has been assigned to this role in the course of her regular employment. She might have to quit her job altogether to get out of it, IMO. (There are always ways, but she's not going to use any of them - she is an extremely well thought-of lawyer and just the right person for this job; she's devoted her live to achieving Chief Public Defender of her county - near Latah County).
 

NCgardener

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I have said this before in various forms, but in light of the ongoing discussion of BK's mental condition I feel it bears repeating.

I am skeptical of the proposition that BK was "mentally ill", and assuming he is, that this would explain his actions and be somehow relevant to his defense.

If you examine the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5-TR), you'll find yourself and most if not all your friends there. The DSM is designed to help trained and experienced professionals diagnose and treat their patients, not to help armchair psychologists to speculate about the possibility that a thrill/spree/mass murder suspect has a diagnosable mental disorder. When we do that, we are indulging in conduct that professionals (like Dr. Ramsland, who hasn't made any public comment) would consider unethical.

Further, assuming for the sake of argument that BK suffers from a mental disorder, no one has offered an explanation why he acted so differently from the millions of others who suffer the same disorder. Mental illness is, IMO, a rabbit hole that offers neither explanation nor comfort to those who seek to understand this event.

We like to believe we are mentally healthy and therefore would never stalk and kill four strangers as BK has been charged with doing. We seek gain some psychological distance from the accused in this way. IMO, it's a form of whistling in the dark.

It's scary to contemplate the possibility that evil is in each of us, and that we might actually be capable of killing our fellow humans. But maybe we should. It might cause us to give more attention to the importance of the fundamental personal, community, and societal guardrails that keep most of us from choosing to descend into evil in response to the personal suffering everyone encounters in life.

Even assuming that BK suffers some mental condition, IMO it is incumbent on a community committed to justice in this case to assess whether it is relevant to the charges he faces. Here's what Idaho law says about this:

"Idaho Statutes Section 18-207. MENTAL CONDITION NOT A DEFENSE — PROVISION FOR TREATMENT DURING INCARCERATION — RECEPTION OF EVIDENCE — NOTICE AND APPOINTMENT OF EXPERT EXAMINERS.

(1) Mental condition shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct.
...
(3) Nothing herein is intended to prevent the admission of expert evidence on the issue of any state of mind which is an element of the offense, subject to the rules of evidence.

..."

So, I invite those who are inclined to dwell upon BK's mental condition to tell us what relevance this discussion has to BK's guilt or innocence in the deaths of the University of Idaho students.

It doesn't have anything to do with guilt, imo, but it's an entire important field of study related to killers!

It can very much help people understand the crimes better. Case in point: people don't understand how a PhD student in criminology could make such basic mistakes. To the extent that they think he didn't do it! I have a DSM entry in my head right now that could explain that, and it's a well-researched subject of its own.

I'm biased because I considered grad school for exactly this subject, lol. But it is a large part of true crime, I think it's fair to say overall, too.
 

acutename

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Stingray acts like a cell tower and forces cell signals to connect to it instead of the cell tower. Pegasus is phone spyware that can harvest all the data off of your cell phone and send it back to whoever is spying on you.

However, according to the affidavit, BK's phone didn't connect to a Moscow cell tower after Nov 14.
there goes the shopping alibi
 

Palinsmom

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I do not have or use one, but there are apps that can be downloaded to track any and all devices that are or have been connected to your WiFi. Bluetooth and airdrop I believe can also connect to nearby phones if iPhone I believe. Then there are the Hotspots. I am NOT a tech intelligent person but I have done some google searches on them.
It all started while I was working at a high school and while in the cafeteria random pictures were being airdropped to mine and my coworkers phones from a random student in there with us.
I also keep my Bluetooth turned off. My search history on my phone was displaying searches that OTHER people were searching on their phones. That hasn’t happened at all after I turned it off.
 

drmrgrl

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Topics I'll be thinking about until we hear more:

1. THE CARS
1.1 He had to know Ethan was over - his very distinctive red jeep was parked up front and he had been watching the house. Why did this not stop him?
1.2. If he was not recording them (not ruling that out) nor stalking them that very weekend (not ruling that out either) it is very likely he did not know Kaylees new car. Why did an unknown car parked up front not stop him? It could have been like someones family visiting?
1.3 Kaylees car was returned. AFAIK, the others were not? It hints that there was no evidence in her new car, while there was evidence in the other car(s) or they did not want to risk giving them back and risking the defence claiming something about the cars that would be hard to disprove otherwise.

2. THE HVAC
The HVAC team was on the scene at the house on Dec the 5th. Now that might be totally irrelevant, as there are tons of reasons for them to be there, but as BK is supposed to have a background in HVAC, this gives me a pause. Was that not his first time in the house?

3. THE BATHROOM
Why does the affidavit (p2) mention the upstairs bathroom and the wall it shares with MMs bedroom? I mean it's not exactly smooth, the way it comes up:
"I later learned there was a dog in the room when Moscow PD officers initially responded. The dog belonged to KG and her ex-boyfriend JD. Ofc Smith the pointed out a small bathroom on the east side of the third floor. The bathroom shared a wall with MM bedroom which was situated on the south-east corner on the third floor. As I entered the bedroom, I could see two females in the single bed in the room."

4. WHEN BK MOVED TO PULLMAN
Per the affidavit (p16), he was already near the house on August 21. When talking of BKs phone being near the house: "All of these occasions, except for one, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days. One of these occasions, on August 21,2022 BKs phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m"
AFAIK, this was before classes even started and he was already either stalking them or at least meeting them.
4.1 This begs to ask, when and where did he became aware of his target? (From all we know, he could be the online ex-bf from 6 years ago of any of them, so the question is, how did the stalking start.).
4.2 And on what date did he actually move there?

5. DEPARTURE
5.1 How did BK know at ~2.40 (or before) that it's time to depart towards Moscow and his victim(s) is waiting at home, not at a party, at a sleepover, having a movie night with roomies, in their rooms with a hookup, on a video call etc? Like did he just take the drive with all the weapon and costume "just in case" it works out? I mean did he even have a burner phone to continue monitoring at least their online activity while his original phone was turned off?
5.2 What triggered him to attack that night? It was not ideal conditions to commit a perfect crime, that's for sure. There were 2 cars up front that could have not been there, for one.

6. THE DRIVE
6.1. What was BK doing with the weird drive to King Road? He did not even take the shortest route (Maps suggest to take the northern road by the airport - maybe avoided it due to cameras? But he was still caught on plenty...).Was he choosing this odd route to fetch something, to see something, to meet someone or to avoid to be seen by the cameras? Or something else entirely? Heck, maybe taking drugs before the "action"?
6.2 And why the circling before onset? Why not sit still and look at the house, makes way more sense somehow. Afraid of car being seen standing somewhere? But now it was seen on more cameras. I mean it's a generic car and with engine off at the night... Did he still have several options of houses to enter and was circling between them? (I personally don't think it's likely, but he could have been stalking more than one household)

BOTTOM LINE
All in all, I am still leaning towards there being a specific motive. IMO, as soon as people heard "a phd student in criminology" they jumped into "serial killer", "well planned", "psychopath", "just wanted to kill". If we could just for a moment ignore what he did in academia and think afresh. Like what would you think with the same evidence had it been told that the prep was a 28 year old male who had previously worked at a pizza place, possibly had a history of drug abuse and other mental illness and had just moved cross-country from his family. He drives to crime scene with his own car, enters the home of 5 young females while a visitor is obviously over, looses the cover of his murder weapon next to a victim, leaves DNA, video and phone evidence and even an eye witness.
Would your first thought still be "serial killer mastermind human hunter very well planned, only killed because he wanted to kill and to commit a perfect crime"? Because mine sure is not.

I think he had a specific motive, was fuelled by rage, acted irrationally that night due to a specific trigger and maybe had been stalking at least one of them via some sort of audio/video recording devices on their car(s) and/or in the HVAC system. I also think the crime scene was more graphic than just stabbing and probably only towards one victim with also possibly a trophy of some sort collected.

All MOO unless linked data.
IMO. All very good questions. I think BK had a specific motive to be there as well.
 
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