ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

[girlhasnoname]

Maybe consider this when we wonder how BK might have incapacitated the victims. BK was a boxer. Could he have slugged them first and knocked them out or rendered them helpless? If it was immediately before the deed, it would not develop into a bruise once heart stopped pumping blood. Just a thought

It certainly gave him upper body strength, especially the arms.

 

[Sjöberg]

Is in the close vicinity of 1122 twelve different times between August and November.

Just a detail, but these at least 12 times have no known starting point - the first ones could be before August as well:

There is one detail wrong here. The PCA does not say it started in august. It mentions the stalking incident in late August as it relates to the ticket about a missing seatbelt minutes later - that proves (they shoud have body cam of it) that it was him in his car with his phone. It says nothing about the first time:

Per the affidavit (p16) regarding stalking: "All of these occasions, except for one, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days. One of these occasions, on August 21,2022 BKs phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m"

 

[10ofRods]

Got it, thanks. I don't know what part of the country you live in and thought perhaps reports were mixing up two different schools in the State of Washington. I only mentioned Pullman to clarify that I was talking about WSU.

The link only mentions that the report comes from the Spokane Medical Examiner. It does not surprise me that UW has an excellent medical school, with a facility in Spokane that may have assisted with the investigation.

Not that this is such a big deal, but I assume we "autocorrect" one another here as part of the function of this forum. In this case, I was probably wrong and I appreciate your correcting me.

I always appreciate correction as well, as my method is very Holmesian (put every possible hypothesis on the table and then eliminate the ones that are untrue). This leads to me going down numerous rabbitholes.

All of the PAC-12 schools are outstanding, each in their own way, but it wasn't until I moved away (for a while) from the region and worked elsewhere that I realized just how lucky we on the West Coast are, to have so many types of MRI machines, have them available for every kind of use (including autopsies). For example, I do believe it was U of W medical professors who wrote papers on isotopes from metal objects being findable with MRI and pathological examination. They were likely not the first, but it's clear they use this tech very well at U of W (and probably WSU does it as well, but I can't imagine that the most sophisticated tech is even in Spokane - they would have reached out to Seattle, if they did the kind of radiological forensics I hope they did).

UW Radiology

(They have top notch interventional radiology as well, which is specialized real time imaging for nuanced purposes).

 

[10ofRods]

Just a detail, but these at least 12 times have no known starting point - the first ones could be before August as well:

Ah - well, thank you. I thought the PCA mentioned a starting point, thank you for the correction.

If it's just 12 times between, say, July and November, that's 2-3 times a month. Not very much stalking, if you ask me. Kind of an ordinary thing to do, with the exception of the times of day/night that the PCA says these visits occurred.

 

[Nova]

...

I agree that there's no evidence that the four had passed away before he left.

I recently saw an Ashley Banfield interview with SG wherein he said he asked and was assured nothing could have been done for the deceased even if 911 had been called right away. She was trying to get him to say he was upset by the delay in notifying LE and he wasn't biting.

This isn't proof all four were dead before the intruder departed. For all I know, it was something somebody made up in an attempt to ease the mind of a grieving father, or to deflect potential criticism of the surviving witness.

But that's what SG said on the matter. I wouldn't think somebody in the investigation would actually assume a victim couldn't be saved unless s/he was already dead.

 

[maskedwoman]

I am interested in the "dozen" times his phone pinged in the area serviced by the same cell provider that serviced the King st house. The PCA says it was recorded over several months, starting in August. I would expect to see the majority of those pings occurring right before the killings when he likely would have stepped up his stalking.

Did he go to any parties there? That would explain how he knew the house's layout--if he knew it. MOO

Do we know if any of the deceased students attended activities at WSU?

My early thoughts were that he surely wouldn't have been to a party there, as he's so much older. But I've since realized that I'm just too far out of the victims' age group to be so sure of that. And I wasn't a partier in college, so I have no idea how people end up at these parties. Is there a standing list of invitees? Or does word just spread and people show up?

If he was ever at one of their parties, I can't imagine it went very well since his idea of small talk is where do you live and what's your schedule. Yikes! Being thrown out of a party there could certainly explain why he might enter intending to kill more than one person.

 

[JenniD]

This is my opinion only. I think BK is guilty of this heinous crime and I don’t think he wanted or expected to be caught. I think he did it for research- he didn’t get the responses and answers to his survey so needed to experience it himself. No speculation as to why he chose these victims. I think the sheath was left on purpose but he did not expect the dna on the snap to be there. His demeanor prior to the PCA being released and after reveal to me that he is upset that he messed up
Again. Just MOO

 

[Bliss_Perth]

I recently saw an Ashley Banfield interview with SG wherein he said he asked and was assured nothing could have been done for the deceased even if 911 had been called. She was trying to get him to say he was upset by the delay in notifying LE and he wasn't biting.

This isn't proof all four were dead before the intruder departed. For all I know, it was something somebody made up in an attempt to ease the mind of a grieving father, or to deflect potential criticism of the surviving witness.

But that's what SG said on the matter. I wouldn't think somebody in the investigation would actually assume a victim couldn't be saved unless s/he was already dead.

The coroner said that.

 

[r3d-ros3]

My early thoughts were that he surely wouldn't have been to a party there, as he's so much older. But I've since realized that I'm just too far out of the victims' age group to be so sure of that. And I wasn't a partier in college, so I have no idea how people end up at these parties. Is there a standing list of invitees? Or does word just spread and people show up?

If he was ever at one of their parties, I can't imagine it went very well since his idea of small talk is where do you live and what's your schedule. Yikes! Being thrown out of a party there could certainly explain why he might enter intending to kill more than one person.

I'm around BK's age and have been wondering if he attended a party, maybe not at King road, but in one of the nearby houses. It's not outside the realm of possibility, although I feel like PhD students who also serve as TAs for undergraduate classes have no place at undergrad / Greek parties. Maybe he felt like it was ok because they were students at a different school? All IMO.

 

[GRT]

Ah - well, thank you. I thought the PCA mentioned a starting point, thank you for the correction.

If it's just 12 times between, say, July and November, that's 2-3 times a month. Not very much stalking, if you ask me. Kind of an ordinary thing to do, with the exception of the times of day/night that the PCA says these visits occurred.

I thought so, too, but it doesn't. It does mention that the detective was granted a search warrant for BK's historical CSLI data starting June 23, 2022. It then goes on to say the account was opened in June, 2022, so I'm guessing that was probably soon after BK got to Pullman. Did he take a summer semester course of study?

According to the PCA, BKs phone number was in the vicinity of the "cellular resources that provide coverage to the areas of 1122 King Road on at least 12 occasions prior to November 13, 2022."

It says all but one of those incidents were in late evening and early morning hours, which sounds to me (MOO) like bar-hopping.

 

[Sundog]

My early thoughts were that he surely wouldn't have been to a party there, as he's so much older. But I've since realized that I'm just too far out of the victims' age group to be so sure of that. And I wasn't a partier in college, so I have no idea how people end up at these parties. Is there a standing list of invitees? Or does word just spread and people show up?

If he was ever at one of their parties, I can't imagine it went very well since his idea of small talk is where do you live and what's your schedule. Yikes! Being thrown out of a party there could certainly explain why he might enter intending to kill more than one person.

It's possible that BK had been in the King Road house before during one of the open house parties, perhaps in the summer when the weather was warmer and people were both inside the house and spread out to the patio area outside and in the parking lot in front of the house, lawn chairs, etc. We see this a lot in the summer and early fall at the houses that students rent adjacent to campus.

We know from reports in MSM that a local 30 year old chef went to at least one party to check it out, he lived nearby in one of the apartment buildings and seems to have crashed at least one party. So it is very possible that BK did the same at some point, and was at least generally familiar with the layout of the house.

 

[10ofRods]

I recently saw an Ashley Banfield interview with SG wherein he said he asked and was assured nothing could have been done for the deceased even if 911 had been called. She was trying to get him to say he was upset by the delay in notifying LE and he wasn't biting.

This isn't proof all four were dead before the intruder departed. For all I know, it was something somebody made up in an attempt to ease the mind of a grieving father, or to deflect potential criticism of the surviving witness.

But that's what SG said on the matter. I wouldn't think somebody in the investigation would actually assume a victim couldn't be saved unless s/he was already dead.

The two are not inconsistent. I believe all four received specific life-ending injuries, and I believe at least three of them will have very similar fatal injuries (perhaps all of them). It's possible that one of them (Kaylee) received more injuries in addition to the ones mentioned by her father.

There was no recovering from the organ damage done by the murderer, IMO. And they were dead fairly quickly. But it was not instantaneous, unless the existing information from the Latah County Coroner is in error. Fast, but not instant.

IMO. It's interesting to me that from what we know, the injuries were all within the strike zone permitted in boxing.

In general, boxers are prohibited from hitting below the belt, holding, tripping, pushing, biting, or spitting. The boxer's shorts are raised so the opponent is not allowed to hit to the groin area with intent to cause pain or injury. Failure to abide by the former may result in a foul. They also are prohibited from kicking, head-butting, or hitting with any part of the arm other than the knuckles of a closed fist (including hitting with the elbow, shoulder or forearm, as well as with open gloves, the wrist, the inside, back or side of the hand). They are prohibited as well from hitting the back, back of the head or neck (called a "rabbit-punch") or the kidneys.

Note that some awareness of where organs are placed is needed.

The liver is not off limits and every good boxer knows to protect that area of the body, and boxing injuries to the liver are no joke. Apparently, the world of MMA knows about liver punches as well.

Liver Shot (Punch): What Makes It So Dangerous?

As we know quite well, combat sports and martial arts have some very specific and special shots, be they punches or kicks. Each one has some peculiarity, but

wayofmartialarts.com

Boxing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But the neck/back of the head area is off limits.

 

[Nila Aella]

Ah - well, thank you. I thought the PCA mentioned a starting point, thank you for the correction.

If it's just 12 times between, say, July and November, that's 2-3 times a month. Not very much stalking, if you ask me. Kind of an ordinary thing to do, with the exception of the times of day/night that the PCA says these visits occurred.

I agree! I go to the next town way more than that, at least twice a week for shopping, sometimes more...but not late night and early morning hours.

Late evening hours and early morning hours without actual times could mean anywhere from 10-6. And because we don't know all the dates, some of those twelve might be clustered toward Nov.

Could he have been visiting someone in the apartments next to or across the street from the house? Would that have clocked his phone near the house? Maybe even touched the wifi? JMO

 

[GRT]

The PCA says BK was spotted on the cameras at Albertsons around 1 am the night/morning of the murders, and that he walked through the store and purchased unknown items.

By watching on survelliance cameras, I'm surprised they can't figure out -- with a good deal of certainty -- just what he bought in the store that night.

 

[maskedwoman]

Thank you. I'm going to go with "this is his main phone" and so far don't see any evidence of a burner phone. I can't remember how far back the phone data warrant gave LE, but I assume they have widened the search since the PCA.

I sure hope there are no more victims, of any kind. I also wonder if this was BK's first phone on a separate account from his parents, another sign of his newfound freedom (moving away from PA, new phone, etc).

So new phone in late June; hair stylist appt in Pullman in July. Evidence of presence near 1122 in August. Noise complaints and parties at house begin in August, continue into September (and perhaps beyond, we don't know). BK begins to TA in late August. Is complained about by students sometime between then and mid-November (probably a series of complaints). Is in the close vicinity of 1122 twelve different times between August and November. He could have been there more times, with phone turned off. The fact that he has his phone turned on (and probably using Google maps - which also tracks personal data) puzzles me. It's as if he couldn't do without it. It's possible he didn't yet realize he was planning a real crime (up until Nov 12, when IMO he clearly knew he was equipping himself for a crime and he got out of his car and went inside 1122 with a knife).

Maybe the reason he always had his phone because he didn't know where he was going? He was new to the area and actually lived in Pullman. Just a thought.

 

[Mad Hettie]

Topics I'll be thinking about until we hear more:

1. THE CARS
1.1 He had to know Ethan was over - his very distinctive red jeep was parked up front and he had been watching the house. Why did this not stop him?
1.2. If he was not recording them (not ruling that out) nor stalking them that very weekend (not ruling that out either) it is very likely he did not know Kaylees new car. Why did an unknown car parked up front not stop him? It could have been like someones family visiting?
1.3 Kaylees car was returned. AFAIK, the others were not? It hints that there was no evidence in her new car, while there was evidence in the other car(s) or they did not want to risk giving them back and risking the defence claiming something about the cars that would be hard to disprove otherwise.

2. THE HVAC
The HVAC team was on the scene at the house on Dec the 5th. Now that might be totally irrelevant, as there are tons of reasons for them to be there, but as BK is supposed to have a background in HVAC, this gives me a pause. Was that not his first time in the house?

3. THE BATHROOM
Why does the affidavit (p2) mention the upstairs bathroom and the wall it shares with MMs bedroom? I mean it's not exactly smooth, the way it comes up:
"I later learned there was a dog in the room when Moscow PD officers initially responded. The dog belonged to KG and her ex-boyfriend JD. Ofc Smith the pointed out a small bathroom on the east side of the third floor. The bathroom shared a wall with MM bedroom which was situated on the south-east corner on the third floor. As I entered the bedroom, I could see two females in the single bed in the room."

4. WHEN BK MOVED TO PULLMAN
Per the affidavit (p16), he was already near the house on August 21. When talking of BKs phone being near the house: "All of these occasions, except for one, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days. One of these occasions, on August 21,2022 BKs phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m"
AFAIK, this was before classes even started and he was already either stalking them or at least meeting them.
4.1 This begs to ask, when and where did he became aware of his target? (From all we know, he could be the online ex-bf from 6 years ago of any of them, so the question is, how did the stalking start.).
4.2 And on what date did he actually move there?

5. DEPARTURE
5.1 How did BK know at ~2.40 (or before) that it's time to depart towards Moscow and his victim(s) is waiting at home, not at a party, at a sleepover, having a movie night with roomies, in their rooms with a hookup, on a video call etc? Like did he just take the drive with all the weapon and costume "just in case" it works out? I mean did he even have a burner phone to continue monitoring at least their online activity while his original phone was turned off?
5.2 What triggered him to attack that night? It was not ideal conditions to commit a perfect crime, that's for sure. There were 2 cars up front that could have not been there, for one.

6. THE DRIVE
6.1. What was BK doing with the weird drive to King Road? He did not even take the shortest route (Maps suggest to take the northern road by the airport - maybe avoided it due to cameras? But he was still caught on plenty...).Was he choosing this odd route to fetch something, to see something, to meet someone or to avoid to be seen by the cameras? Or something else entirely? Heck, maybe taking drugs before the "action"?
6.2 And why the circling before onset? Why not sit still and look at the house, makes way more sense somehow. Afraid of car being seen standing somewhere? But now it was seen on more cameras. I mean it's a generic car and with engine off at the night... Did he still have several options of houses to enter and was circling between them? (I personally don't think it's likely, but he could have been stalking more than one household)

BOTTOM LINE
All in all, I am still leaning towards there being a specific motive. IMO, as soon as people heard "a phd student in criminology" they jumped into "serial killer", "well planned", "psychopath", "just wanted to kill". If we could just for a moment ignore what he did in academia and think afresh. Like what would you think with the same evidence had it been told that the prep was a 28 year old male who had previously worked at a pizza place, possibly had a history of drug abuse and other mental illness and had just moved cross-country from his family. He drives to crime scene with his own car, enters the home of 5 young females while a visitor is obviously over, looses the cover of his murder weapon next to a victim, leaves DNA, video and phone evidence and even an eye witness.
Would your first thought still be "serial killer mastermind human hunter very well planned, only killed because he wanted to kill and to commit a perfect crime"? Because mine sure is not.

I think he had a specific motive, was fuelled by rage, acted irrationally that night due to a specific trigger and maybe had been stalking at least one of them via some sort of audio/video recording devices on their car(s) and/or in the HVAC system. I also think the crime scene was more graphic than just stabbing and probably only towards one victim with also possibly a trophy of some sort collected.

All MOO unless linked data.

This is so well thought out. It's not at all where my mind has been going and now how interesting.

Huh.

 

[Sjöberg]

It says all but one of those incidents were in late evening and early morning hours, which sounds to me (MOO) like bar-hopping.

My first idea was that the daytime incident could have been first contact and the night ones stalking.
Or if it began online, the first day one could have been familiarizing himself to the area.

I do understand that there's a theoretical possibility still there that he might have conducted at least some of these nighttime visits to the immediate area for a non-sinister reason. Is it very likely - no, but is it possible - yes. But as all the data we have points the other way, and we have no information whatsover that connects him to the victims or the area in any normal ways... with the information we have now, I am going to believe it was some sort of stalking that he was doing - until shown any evidence that points to the contrary.

 

[TL4S]

The PCA says BK was spotted on the cameras at Albertsons around 1 am the night/morning of the murders, and that he walked through the store and purchased unknown items.

By watching on survelliance cameras, I'm surprised they can't figure out -- with a good deal of certainty -- just what he bought in the store that night.

According to the PCA, he was at Albertson's from 12:46 to 1:04 pm on Nov. 13th. I have also wondered if they truly do know what he bought.

 

[10ofRods]

I thought so, too, but it doesn't. It does mention that the detective was granted a search warrant for BK's historical CSLI data starting June 23, 2022. It then goes on to say the account was opened in June, 2022, so I'm guessing that was probably soon after BK got to Pullman. Did he take a summer semester course of study?

According to the PCA, BKs phone number was in the vicinity of the "cellular resources that provide coverage to the areas of 1122 King Road on at least 12 occasions prior to November 13, 2022."

It says all but one of those incidents were in late evening and early morning hours, which sounds to me (MOO) like bar-hopping.

I am guessing he did not take a summer course of study. Tuition is the reason. He would not have been a first year doctoral student yet, and his first year course of study was already pre-determined by the department (who would apparently also offer him funding for it, along with the basic provisions of WSU grad funding). He could not have his waiver until he began his TA position in August.

That doesn't mean that he might not have taken a community ed course or whatever, but summer offerings in grad programs are usually of almost zero value in obtaining the degree as well as costing money.

A normal grad student might well have spent time on their home campus, but also visiting any nearby libraries (does WSU have reciprocal library relationships with U of ID? With the Spokane campus? I see BK as someone who is on his own in an entirely new place for the first time. Getting comfortable with the Pullman/Moscow connection would be a natural thing to do before expanding outward.

Guesses. Speculation.

Bar-hopping or, if in the radius of a cell tower for 1122, Greek House partying or other campus residential party watching. Tons of new students wander around campuses when they first arrive, on weekend nights, looking for social life. I know I did and I preferred to do it alone until some women in my dorm convinced me that was a very bad idea. Indeed, the entire reason I started dating my first husband was to have someone accompany me to fraternity parties (I quickly found other reasons, of course). He would take a beer pitcher that he'd brought from out of state and calmly go and fill it at a fraternity while I (Non-drinker at the time) watched in awe. He would joke around and talk with the fraternity guys. He would pretend he might be thinking about rushing, etc. After about a month of this, we were over it and, well, both of us fell into a pattern of studying more on weekends and going to on campus cultural/film events rather than the party scene (esp. as I wasn't drinking and he was barely a drinker).

IOW, I think BK was probably trying to be social (perhaps in a context where no one from his own program would see him), out of shyness or awkwardness. Barhopping could also be included. Just any method for BK to make some social connections (just standing in a bar with other people) in his new place.

 

[r3d-ros3]

Could he have been visiting someone in the apartments next to or across the street from the house? Would that have clocked his phone near the house? Maybe even touched the wifi? JMO

It's probably not a popular opinion right now, but I am sincerely wondering if he was seeing someone (casually maybe, but romantically) who lived near 1122 King road. This person has maybe already been cooperating with LE and has therefore not been in the media? ALL IMO, but it's something that I'm curious about and it doesn't mean he didn't commit the crime. He could have even only recently started dating someone in Moscow in anticipation of needing an alibi for his late night drives / eventual commission of the crime.

Again, just something I've wondered about, too. I understand that we've all read quite a bit about BK's potential issues with women, and we have yet to hear from (for example), a previous long term girlfriend, but he was capable of being social and was probably interested in dating.

Edit just to say I realize this is unlikely from the current information we have. I agree with others, though, that he might have gone to bars or parties in Moscow and near 1122 King road.