ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 67

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Interesting article about circumventing the June preliminary hearing with a grand jury:

”But prosecutors can undercut the procedural maneuver by seeking a grand jury indictment, which would also spare the surviving roommates from having to sit in court across from Kohberger and face cross-examination during a preliminary hearing, according to Idaho lawyer Edwina Elcox, who previously represented alleged "Cult Mom" Lori Vallow.”

I’m in the UK and don’t have much law experience. What exactly is a grand jury indictment? Does it avoid a trial completely? Thanks.
 
The sheath DNA was the big one IMO. From that he was cooked.

MOO he wiped the sheath down , but some DNA was captured in the snap mechanism that he didn’t get.

Leather is so very porous and sucks the oils from human fingers (which will include skin cells) right into itself.

mtDNA has been retrieved from leather bindings of medieval books. Occasionally nuclear DNA has been retrieved from 19th century leather but mostly just mtDNA.

However, mtDNA is very specific to who one's mother is. BK's mtDNA is now in evidence for this case. In some ways, mtDNA is easier to explain to juries, so it would be useful to test that sheath. I do believe it could be invasive (it will be a few tiny samples, but they probably want to do that with the defense present or involved).

In studies of modern leather, mtDNA could be isolated from *all* experimental samples touched by subjects. DNA deposited before tanning does not yield nuDNA, but leather can give up nuDNA when the product is used post tanning, as in this case.


mtDNA is DNA found only in the mitochondria. These are the energy producing "batteries" of each cell, and every cell has some. It is inherited only from one's mother. It mutates very very slowly and so, most people have identical mtDNA to their mother. All three of the Kohberger kids would have the same mtDNA and while it's not specific to an individual, it would still ID the criminal defendant.
 
I would very much assume so.



If so that's counter to their own forensic handbook and to all standard practice in forensics. It would speak to a level of investigatorial incompetence that I frankly have never seen.

A NEGATIVE swab is STILL EVIDENCE (possibly exculpatory and therefore MUST be delivered to the defense). If that were to be true, any evidence found in Pullman would be suspect.

Let's say they also had the FBI's mobile unit to test such a swab. They could use a snake-like device to get stuff from two drains. It's now evidence! They can't just take it out to the mobile unit and then hide the fact that it came back negative for what they were seeking. Nor can they take it out of the place at all without calling it evidence. And there's no way they brought a DNA sequencer into the bathroom.

IMO.
I was hoping someone with knowledge would weigh in as I said that was my best guess. Thanks. So does that mean that Swabs were not taken as they are not on Return of Service List of items taken from BK's residence. That's the information I was trying to find out. Thank you!
 
Thanks 10ofRods, was this already posted and discussed ?


It was, but it led to a lot of disagreement because people skimmed it and didn't see the part about the posts being *three weeks* before the murders. While it is possible that some other completely random weirdo sent the repeated messages, and then LATER (not knowing that murders were going to be committed) changed their Insta user name to Bryan Kohberger, I seriously doubt that. I'm an Occam's razor kind of person.

Thing is, LE will know with certainty whose IP/device sent those messages. So, until told otherwise by LE, I'm going with "those messages are from BK." And would prefer speculation over WHO got the messages, rather than who sent them. We'll likely find out in June.
 
I dunno. I thought it was actually observed by LE and they went immediately and took the trash.

ABC news said Federal Investigators saw him put the trash in the neighbor's bin. MSN says the same.

Newsweek says so too and adds the detail that the trash was then collected and is in evidence.


If we're going to start second guessing MSM sources with no evidence of our own, it will get fractious.
I'm not second guessing it, I'm just not giving unnamed sources much weight. MOO
 
He was just saying that the trip should only take 35 minutes, but it took BK 50, and the extra time is in the beginning of the trip because the amount of time for the 2nd leg was as expected.

I was just thinking.. I wonder if they have SIGNAL STRENGTH DATA from either the cell tower or his phone during his hour-long drive to the south to (presumably) dump the knife.

Because if they do, they can see where the signal strength was STATIC for a minute or so versus where the road is not windy, etc. If they have this data, then they could greatly reduce the areas by the road where he would most likely have tossed the knife.

But bottom line, IMO, they do not need the knife to get a conviction.
 
I was hoping someone with knowledge would weigh in as I said that was my best guess. Thanks. So does that mean that Swabs were not taken as they are not on Return of Service List of items taken from BK's residence. That's the information I was trying to find out. Thank you!

I really don't know for sure. IME, any swabs taken are immediately numbered and put on the evidence list in the return of evidence document. But I don't live in Washington.

We really don't even know if FBI was present. It looks to me like it was Pullman PD, who may not have that protocol (small town, etc). However, since DNA is routinely found in biofilm (sink traps) 30-35 days out, I would think it would have behooved the FBI to get their own warrant and go in and do that swabbing (and if I had to bet, I would think they have already done so - but their warrants are sealed and we hear nothing about them).
 
I just don't see them putting a lot of effort into the plumbing traps. This isn't a fresh crime they were investigating, this was 1 1/2 months after the fact on fixtures that were used for a solid month after the crimes. The likelihood of evidence being there at that point is beyond remote.
I'm assuming that they didn't as there is nothing on the Return of Service List (the items removed from BK's appartment). Does thst sound right to you?
 
Leather is so very porous and sucks the oils from human fingers (which will include skin cells) right into itself.

mtDNA has been retrieved from leather bindings of medieval books. Occasionally nuclear DNA has been retrieved from 19th century leather but mostly just mtDNA.

However, mtDNA is very specific to who one's mother is. BK's mtDNA is now in evidence for this case. In some ways, mtDNA is easier to explain to juries, so it would be useful to test that sheath. I do believe it could be invasive (it will be a few tiny samples, but they probably want to do that with the defense present or involved).

In studies of modern leather, mtDNA could be isolated from *all* experimental samples touched by subjects. DNA deposited before tanning does not yield nuDNA, but leather can give up nuDNA when the product is used post tanning, as in this case.
Is there any reason to believe that this leather sheath wouldn't be just as likely to contain nuclear DNA? It's not like it got tanned by BK. And would the lack of BK's DNA on the leather bolster a defense argument that the sheath was never in his possession and potentially planted?
 
I really don't know for sure. IME, any swabs taken are immediately numbered and put on the evidence list in the return of evidence document. But I don't live in Washington.

We really don't even know if FBI was present. It looks to me like it was Pullman PD, who may not have that protocol (small town, etc). However, since DNA is routinely found in biofilm (sink traps) 30-35 days out, I would think it would have behooved the FBI to get their own warrant and go in and do that swabbing (and if I had to bet, I would think they have already done so - but their warrants are sealed and we hear nothing about them).
Oh ok, thanks for replying. Would be good if the FBI had been in at some earlier point (perhaps mid Dec after he had taken off for PA). The WPD search wasn't executed until 29 DEC, IIRC, so that's c6weeks post crime. Some other posters seem to think that there would be nothing left in drains by then anyway.
 
I used to work at a TJ Maxx/Marshalls and if they have the receipt of things he purchased you can enter the number into one of our ticket machines to see what the item is. We would use the machines to process them for returns to make sure no one was returning the wrong thing. They could easily be able to find what he purchased from the store which could help aid in the states case.
 
Circumstantial evidence:

He resides in Pullman, 10 miles from Moscow and is a PhD candidate in criminal psychology at WSU.

His telephone pinged in the area of the house 12 times starting on August 23 - all late night or early morning hours.

He tried unsuccessfully to connect with KG on IG on several occasions prior to 11/13.

He took a long route to Moscow from his home at about 2:45am on 11/13 (as captured by WSU cameras), turning off his cell phone minutes after leaving Pullman.

His car was captured on videos driving around Moscow in the wee hours of 11/13.

His car was captured on video driving around the house in the wee hours of 11/13, the last capture being at 4:04 am in the 500 block of Queen, the only side street off of King.

A witness in the house heard sounds, whimpers and voices "around 4 am".

A witness in the house described him as tall, athletic build with bushy eyebrows. Fits BK.

His DNA is on a knife sheath left beside one of the stabbing victims.

A surveillance camera on the house next to the scene picked up the sound of a "thud", voices and a dog barking at 4:17am

His car was captured on surveillance cameras speeding away at 4:20am.

His vehicle and cell phone depict the same way home as his trip to Moscow and the phone was turned on only after leaving Moscow.

His cell phone pinged in front of the house at 9:20-ish am on 11/13.

There is no defense but "someone else" who fits his description used: his phone and maybe car on those 12 drive-bys since August 23; his telephone to IG message KG; his car and phone on 11/13; his knife sheath; his car and phone on the 9:20-ish drive by of 1122 King Rd. on 11/13; and, none of this was known to him.

Such a defense is not reasonable and does not create reasonable doubt.

Moscow PD has the right man and he will be convicted. Surely, his attorney will advise him to accept a plea for his life rather than face the death penalty at trial.
 
As I've said here before (and MOO), there was likely a big gap between imagining using a knife to slaughter 4 people as if it were a scene on Criminal Minds or in a slasher movie and actually doing it, when someone fights back or cries, and when the blood is spurting and the killer is stepping in it, and when the noise and smells in a confined space, and likely In the dark are disorienting. Here's a sort of silly example of what I mean: when I imagine myself doing yoga, I imagine my form is awesome and I look slender and fit doing it. Then reality intrudes when I see myself in the mirror and I realize yoga is harder than I imagine.
Yes, I so agree. Running south from the heart is the abdominal aorta. It's the largest aorta in the body, roughly the width of a garden hose...

Moving on from gory thoughts, I thought this was a good article. The timeline is so narrow. BK pulls up at 4:04. XK is still awake and listening to TikTok at 4:12. At 4:17 the neighbor's ring camera picks up voices and a loud thud. At 4:20 BK's car is seen driving away. Mind boggling.

JANUARY 19, 2023 (lots of good illustrations)
 
I was just thinking.. I wonder if they have SIGNAL STRENGTH DATA from either the cell tower or his phone during his hour-long drive to the south to (presumably) dump the knife.

Because if they do, they can see where the signal strength was STATIC for a minute or so versus where the road is not windy, etc. If they have this data, then they could greatly reduce the areas by the road where he would most likely have tossed the knife.

But bottom line, IMO, they do not need the knife to get a conviction.

They probably also have GPS (not yet mentioned to us at all, but I believe BK carried a smart phone).

I believe he was using a map app in his car, which had to use GPS and therefore, he was tracked by GPS as well. GPS is not turned off by turning off location services.

So there should be TWO sources of evidence for when he stopped or slowed down. We know he turned off the main road and went into Genesee, then reversed course and back onto the main road (etc).

I totally believe they can narrow down where he might have stopped. Still will be hard to find the evidence at this date if, for example, it was weighted in a duffled and tossed into the Snake River at Clarkston. This would mean he may even have gone home to get the right evidence disposal stuff.

He then checked on the King Road house, satisfying himself that no one was even aware of the crime at the time he set out to dispose of evidence.

This might mean that he had gone out a few times before, hunting for humans, but his nerve failed until that particular night. He might not have been as prepared as he should have been - or that we think a smart murderer would be.

Still, if he managed to dump his stuff into the Snake River (better than Latah Creek, obviously; he followed along the Potlatch River and some other bodies of water on his route. Some of them have fish guards further down stream, but if he managed this part of his crime properly, that duffle bad is in sludge at the bottom of one of the rivers.

In checking out his routes, it occurred to me that his first circuit (through Uniontown, I think), did not take him near any major bodies of water - which he might have hoped would happen. So he revises his plan, does NOT turn off his phone, goes home, goes to Moscow, then heads out toward some major rivers. With his phone on. Likely also using Google maps. Panicked beyond any panic he's ever known in his life, because while he's used to getting away with (minor) things like being obnoxious, he has messed up beyond any prior mess-up.
 
Is there any reason to believe that this leather sheath wouldn't be just as likely to contain nuclear DNA? It's not like it got tanned by BK. And would the lack of BK's DNA on the leather bolster a defense argument that the sheath was never in his possession and potentially planted?

Yes, there is good reason to believe it could contain nuDNA since he touched it post-tanning. What's amazing is that sometimes, nuDNA survives tanning (so we know the DNA of the tanner) but that's rare. mtDNA survives that process, so we can know tanners' bloodlines (I'm thinking about William the Conqueror, whose mother was the daughter of a tanner - would be fascinating to see her mtDNA turn up on medieval leather goods!) This has been an excellent rabbit hole for me (although it's ruining an entire long bit of academic writing I have been doing).

Indeed, it SHOULD contain some of his nuDNA, at least traces, as it's still a fairly porous surface.

The inside of the sheath could also contain microscopic particles of metal from the knife. In some autopsies (U of Washington has pioneered in this), they do MRI of knife wounds to find the molecules of knife metal and then excise those areas for slides and run them for inorganic composition, to determine which knife formula was used. Most major knife makers have their own specific, patented recipes.

So, when I say there's way more that could come in at the prelim, I am all excited about just how much COULD be available by then. The FBI and others should find this an excellent opportunity to use all their well-honed skills in a big case.
 
There is no defense but "someone else" who fits his description used: his phone and maybe car on those 12 drive-bys since August 23; his telephone to IG message KG; his car and phone on 11/13; his knife sheath; his car and phone on the 9:20-ish drive by of 1122 King Rd. on 11/13; and, none of this was known to him.
Not neccesarily. A large number of males in Moscow alone could match DM's description. The car and phone put him in the area, but not inside the house, and certainly not killing anyone. I can think of a number of scenarios that could make someone else the killer.

Am I saying that I believe BK is innocent? No, I'm saying at this point, in my mind, he is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The only damning evidence against him is the DNA on the sheath, and if there is no DNA on the leather, only on the snap, that alone could raise the spectre of planted evidence. Also, we don't know the extent of DNA that does not link to BK at the crime scene, or other potentially explosive exculpatory evidence. We have not heard the defense speak, only the authorities. There is a reason there are trials.

JMHO
 
I’m in the UK and don’t have much law experience. What exactly is a grand jury indictment? Does it avoid a trial completely? Thanks.
This should help. BK is currently scheduled for a preliminary hearing in June.

Here are some of the differences when charging by grand jury indictment:

Why Prosecutors Choose Grand Juries Instead of Preliminary Hearings
 
It was discussed in the last few threads that her account is essentially hearsay if she does not testify (I just learned this myself) so prosecution will want her to speak. Certainly the defense would call her to try to poke holes in her story :(

I would think so. But the better method is to have a plumber come in and remove the entire U shaped trap for the sink and the tub. It *can* involve taking out the tub. I got to thinking that such a major thing might have been reserved for a separate warrant, but I sure hope they do it. At any rate, they'd want the actual trap itself if at all possible, very difficult to know if one has an adequate swab.

If no one has used the tub and it's still a crime scene, that evidence is still there. It *should* be there if he used his shower after the murders.

Maybe they have evidence from elsewhere (regarding his shower). I doubt it, but it's an interesting thought.



It's illegal where I live and it's illegal many places. But BK probably didn't care about that at the time.



Hard to notice in a college town, with DoorDash and so on. At the quietest hour of the day. A policeman could have watched him, I suppose, then he would have seen a man dressed in black clothing, possibly wearing a mask, enter the back door of an unlocked student house. I would hope that would be enough to trigger concern.



But according to what the Coroner said - he did NOT do this. We've talked about it a lot. He would have had to grab the victims up from their sleep by the hair, I agree. But Coroner said that "most" were "sleeping" (lying down in their beds anyway) and the wounds were to the TORSO and upper body (not the throat).

Throat wounds spray copious amounts of blood onto the murderer as well. Bodies would have been found in postures consistent with that manner of death and would not appear to be sleeping.

That's not what he did, IMO.
Thank you for that reminder, I agree. because I forgot to add it, all my posts today are moo.
 
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