ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 69

[NCWatcher]

Agree. When i first heard this I was shocked.
Exactly as you say, he actually needed help.
If he wouldn’t listen to the professor’s feedback and adjust the grades then, yes, being a TA was not for him.

MOO I feel the prof must have tried to talk to him but he wasn’t open to feedback and as a last ditch before the steps for his removal we were set in motion they tried getting him some raw feedback from the class.

MOO, Notice his own master program prof allowed to write a “narrative” about his criminal thinking survey that he said he would conduct, but then didn’t, by his own failing to leave himself enough time process the data.

MOO, so he was treated kindly by a professor with the power to fail him for late work and then turned around and burned the undergrads assigned to him when he had the power.

Maybe. I don't give the doctoral program professor any breaks though. If what the student described really happened, the professor was wrong. Period. It doesn't matter IMO if he had already tried to talk to BK. He's the professor. He holds the power. If what the student described really happened, it might have "triggered" BK (although no way the professor could have known that so no blame there.) More importantly from the standpoint of acceptable professor behavior, just what did his atrocious stunt teach the class? Nothing good, that's for sure and nothing that will help this professor's future TAs interact effectively with students (if the professor is even given any more TAs if the story is true) nor will the stunt help any other professors' TAs. Just disgusting.

I'm not sure we should be so hard on BK's master's program though. We have no idea what sort of theses were proposed and completed by BK's classmates. Perhaps narrative work vs quantitative work is ok in that program. (Hard for me to believe but some programs actually prefer qualitative/narrative work these days.) And COVID was incredibly disruptive. BK and his thesis situation may not have been unusual. And to a great extent, unlike in a doctoral program, whether a master's student finishes on time does depend on the supervising professor and what he/she permits. For example, for BK to do his late survey, I'm pretty sure he would have needed permission from the IRB (Institutional Review Board that oks human subject research) His thesis professor would have had to sign off on the IRB application. Why did she agree to let him gather data so late? I suspect it may have been another adjustment made for COVID and not made just for BK and not made just at that university. Lots of stuff considered iffy or downright unacceptable was done at lots of universities because of the pandemic.

JMO

 

[jepop]

Good grief. Good job blowing up the case before even the PH is held, public defender's office.

No wonder they didn't even interact during his last court appearance. They need to get him a new attorney ASAP.

I am puzzled that any parent of the victims would have had her as appointed counsel. I thought those offenses occurred in other jurisdictions in Idaho.

MOO

The way I read that article is that it does not state that there is an existing or prior (at Jan 5th when AT was appointed for BK) conflict of interest (according to how that is interpreted under IDaho law). At this point we're not privy to details of how the situation was handled or if a conflict of interest will be found to have existed. We also don't know, from that article, whether the potential conflict of interest issue was addressed at the time AT took on BK's case. I tend to think, yes it was likely addressed at the time and no potential or existing COI was found to exist (under the legal definition of COI in such cases). My reasoning is that the Public Defender's office would want to be sure and would have followed protocols cos high profile case. All that would be on record IMO. MOO

My personal uninformed speculations run that AT representing a parent on unrelated matter after murders and prior to withdrawal on Jan 5, would not necessarily make for a COI. I feel that must have been carefully addressed at the time. MOO. AT representing a parent prior to the murders, in the past, on an (obviously) unrelated matter would be unlikley to make for a COI, IMO. But I am not a lawyer. MOO.

ETA: A legal rep interviewed for the article notes that "conflicts are factually based".

 

[WingsOverTX]

The way I read that article is that it does not state that there is an existing or prior (at Jan 5th when AT was appointed for BK) conflict of interest (according to how that is interpreted under IDaho law). At this point we're not privy to details of how the situation was handled or if a conflict of interest will be found to have existed. We also don't know, from that article, whether the potential conflict of interest issue was addressed at the time AT took on BK's case. I tend to think, yes it was likely addressed at the time and no potential or existing COI was found to exist (under the legal definition of COI in such cases). My reasoning is that the Public Defender's office would want to be sure and would have followed protocols cos high profile case. All that would be on record IMO. MOO

My personal uninformed speculations run that AT representing a parent on unrelated matter after murders and prior to withdrawal on Jan 5, would not necessarily make for a COI. I feel that must have been carefully addressed at the time. MOO. AT representing a parent prior to the murders, in the past, on an (obviously) unrelated matter would be unlikley to make for a COI, IMO. But I am not a lawyer. MOO.

RBBM
That is where my opinion would differ. Any even tertiary contact with a victim's family is a red flag to me. But, if as you say, all the facts are not publicly known, maybe this is much ado about nothing on my part.

Am I willing to rely on the judgment of all involved to not exclude her if facts prove she has a connection to a victims family? No, I am not.

I think it's weird that Idaho narrows the pool of potential public defenders in a case of this nature so much. What would be the rational for that? Potential for conflicts of interest run higher in such a scenario. And the geography issue of those qualified being far away from Moscow seems very problematic. Do they not anticipate a mass murderer or other very serious criminal needing public defender representation. If not, why not?

JMO

 

[IDK]

Good.

Then posters agree with me that you can always find a way to discount one piece of evidence but it's a whole lot harder to discount the mountain of evidence when all those pieces are put together.

Consider it a puzzle, eventually you get the picture.

(George Wagner, Case in point)

Though I agree, that at the moment, there appears to be quite a bit of evidence ( I also think the cell tower info alone is not all that compelling) one thing in particular throws me off— we have only heard one side of the story so far.

Because of the gag order, we have not heard from BK’s current attorney at all. We have no way of knowing if there is exculpatory evidence, an alibi, or anything of that nature.

Maybe there isn’t any evidence to support BK’s defense, but we don’t know that yet. I for one am waiting to hear the WHOLE story, not just one side’s portion. Which of course has been carefully curated as we should all be aware!
IMHO.

 

[jepop]

RBBM
That is where my opinion would differ. Any even tertiary contact with a victim's family is a red flag to me. But, if as you say, all the facts are not publicly known, maybe this is much ado about nothing on my part.

Am I willing to rely on the judgment of all involved to not exclude her if facts prove she has a connection to a victims family? No, I am not.

I think it's weird that Idaho narrows the pool of potential public defenders in a case of this nature so much. What would be the rational for that? Potential for conflicts of interest run higher in such a scenario. And the geography issue of those qualified being far away from Moscow seems very problematic. Do they not anticipate a mass murderer or other very serious criminal needing public defender representation. If not, why not?

JMO

The pool does seem narrow. Could it be resources? Or related to population. IDK. I'm not aware of where the various parents of victims live (haven't paid so much attention to that). I'd be right to assume that the relevant parent lives within the jurisdiction right? Ha, maybe this is unknown territory, maybe PDO didn't factor in premeditated murder defendent using public defense, IDK.

I would think the public would be entitled to see whatever documents are on record to show how COI issue or potential COI was addressed at the time. I'm not sure, but would not think those fall under gag order. Just a guess.

The other thing that I have no knowledge on is whether or not there is a public perception factor to any COI matters like this potential one. I really don't know about that, COI perception matters in politics, but this article seemed to be suggesting that legal COIs matters are factually based and assessed. So AT for e.g just repped her client in court on whatever it was, nothing re the murders was ever discussed between them, no personal chats or relationship. etc. MOO

 

[CityKid]

Wouldn't it just prove how small the community is? I think the only way it would prove anything is if it's something unusual for that area and I'm not getting the sense that it is. He lived only 8 miles away, right? So it makes sense to me that in two small sister towns, they may visit the same locations.

I may revise this once we have more information about where his phone pinged, but for now, I want to post the passage from the PCA that has gotten so much attention. It says:

"On December 23, 2022 pursuant to that search warrant, I received historical records for the 8458 Phone from AT&T from the time the account was opened in June 2022. After consulting with CAST SA, I was able to determine estimated locations for the 8458 Phone from June 2022 to present, the time period authorized by the court. The records for the 8458 Phone show the 8458 Phone utilizing cellular resources that provide coverage to the area of 1122 King Road on at least twelve occasions prior to November 13, 2022. All of these occasions, except forone, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days."

It doesn't say he was at the house or even on the street. It just says that his phone pinged a tower that "provides coverage to the area of 1122 King Road."

That is incredibly vague and not even approaching a smoking gun, IMO.

Where else does the tower provide coverage besides 1122 King Road? How long was he there? A drive through is different from being stopped somewhere along the road. How many other random cars have this same pattern of 12 pings in that area? So many questions.

JMO.

Your last line BBM for focus. I would bet the defense is studying this exact situation. We have no idea if this is a common route in the area. The 12 pings could be lower than average for cars that drive repeatedly in this area.

 

[NCWatcher]

RBBM
That is where my opinion would differ. Any even tertiary contact with a victim's family is a red flag to me. But, if as you say, all the facts are not publicly known, maybe this is much ado about nothing on my part.

Am I willing to rely on the judgment of all involved to not exclude her if facts prove she has a connection to a victims family? No, I am not.

I think it's weird that Idaho narrows the pool of potential public defenders in a case of this nature so much. What would be the rational for that? Potential for conflicts of interest run higher in such a scenario. And the geography issue of those qualified being far away from Moscow seems very problematic. Do they not anticipate a mass murderer or other very serious criminal needing public defender representation. If not, why not?

JMO

Don't most states follow ABA guidelines to develop rosters of attorneys qualified to lead the defense in capital cases (or in potential capital cases if a DP decision hasn't been made)? I always thought that was typically required. It was my understanding that attorneys with lesser qualifications could sit "second chair" but couldn't serve as the lead attorney. Sitting as second chair was one way to become more qualified to to be a lead. But a public defender's offices may not have the resources to provide a second attorney.

I may be wrong but it's my understanding resources for public defenders offices are stretched pretty thin. But Idaho is something like 3th or 40th out of the 50 states in terms of population. So I'm not really sure the resources there are unusually lacking given the size of the population. It's always possible any location could have mass murders but realistically, demands for public defenders are much less in a less populated state than say in California, Texas, or New York. And training public defenders to work on capital cases takes them away from doing other kinds of defense work that more typically needs to be done. (Drug cases, for example)
JMO

 

[sunshineray]

Though I agree, that at the moment, there appears to be quite a bit of evidence ( I also think the cell tower info alone is not all that compelling) one thing in particular throws me off— we have only heard one side of the story so far.

Because of the gag order, we have not heard from BK’s current attorney at all. We have no way of knowing if there is exculpatory evidence, an alibi, or anything of that nature.

Maybe there isn’t any evidence to support BK’s defense, but we don’t know that yet. I for one am waiting to hear the WHOLE story, not just one side’s portion. Which of course has been carefully curated as we should all be aware!
IMHO.

Well we do know this about BK's lawyer. I'm thinking he may need a new one very soon.

Kohberger attorney represented parent of victim in Moscow homicides before taking his case

“Each lawyer needs to assess the possibility of a conflict with the ethical rule in front of her, and talk with clients,” a veteran legal expert said.

news.yahoo.com

 

[WingsOverTX]

Your last line BBM for focus. I would bet the defense is studying this exact situation. We have no idea if this is a common route in the area. The 12 pings could be lower than average for cars that drive repeatedly in this area.

Possibly. But the house is near the end of a cul de sac so I less they can show he was visiting someone nearby (or other plausible reason) rather than just driving by, it seems unlikely. It's not a "thru street" from what I've seen.

JMO

 

[IDK]

Well we do know this about BK's lawyer. I'm thinking he may need a new one very soon.

Kohberger attorney represented parent of victim in Moscow homicides before taking his case

“Each lawyer needs to assess the possibility of a conflict with the ethical rule in front of her, and talk with clients,” a veteran legal expert said.

news.yahoo.com

Very interesting— I have not followed the case from the beginning so was not aware one of the parents had needed a public defender ( for two felony charges , I guess?) And definitely wasn’t aware they were assigned the same lawyer as BK!

 

[sunshineray]

Very interesting— I have not followed the case from the beginning so was not aware one of the parents had needed a public defender ( for two felony charges , I guess?) And definitely wasn’t aware they were assigned the same lawyer as BK!

I just found this out myself, it was posted earlier on this thread.

 

[CityKid]

Possibly. But the house is near the end of a cul de sac so I less they can show he was visiting someone nearby (or other plausible reason) rather than just driving by, it seems unlikely. It's not a "thru street" from what I've seen.

JMO

I feel like I'd need to know the radius of coverage of each tower to get into more depth on this. MOO but at this point, without further knowledge, the 12 pings could be huge or nothing.

 

[NCWatcher]

Possibly. But the house is near the end of a cul de sac so I less they can show he was visiting someone nearby (or other plausible reason) rather than just driving by, it seems unlikely. It's not a "thru street" from what I've seen.

JMO

But we don't know how big an area the cell tower serves that caused the pings, do we? While the house may be on a cul de sac, street configurations don't affect cell service. It seems a tower might be able to cause pings in phones in say, a several mile radius.
JMO

 

[IDK]

But we don't know how big an area the cell tower serves that caused the pings, do we? While the house may be on a cul de sac, street configurations don't affect cell service. It seems a tower might be able to cause pings in phones in say, a several mile radius.
JMO

Interesting article that highlights inaccuracies in cell tower data unless able to triangulate the date:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/experts-say-law-enforcements-use-of-cellphone-records-can-be-inaccurate/2014/06/27/028be93c-faf3-11e3-932c-0a55b81f48ce_story.html

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Here's how I see it. Let's imagine that BK didn't stalk the women or cruise around the house over a period of months or go to the MG. On the night of the murder, a white car of the same make and model as his was driving around the neighborhood immediately before and after the time of the murder. The car does not have a front plate. At the time of the murder, BK's car is registered in PA and has no front plate. Days later, BK changes the registration of the car. His DNA is found on the knife sheath at the crime scene. The victims are murdered by a knife that made wounds consistent with a Ka-Bar, which is the type of knife that fits the sheath. A witness describes seeing a man with bushy eyebrows in the house at the time of the murders. The same white car is seen driving away from the area at a high rate of speed immediately after the time of the killings. The PCA lays out a pattern of movement that synchs the car with BK's cell phone. BK cruises past the crime scene the next morning before the crime has even been reported. That's just what we know. That tells a pretty coherent story in my view. What I haven't seen is a scintilla of evidence that would make me doubt what the PCA lays out.

You'd be a much better juror than I would. I'm already convinced.

BBM. That's because the defense doesn't usually get to release official information (like a PCA) and now they're gagged. That's really what I'm getting at. All we've seen thus far is evidence from one side and IMO, that evidence, while sufficient for a PCA, isn't sufficient for trial so until we see more, I maintain that we don't know if he stalked the girls, if he watched the house, etc. I want to keep an open mind in the absence of more direct evidence (not the same as saying he didn't do it, of course). MOO.

 

[jepop]

Possibly. But the house is near the end of a cul de sac so I less they can show he was visiting someone nearby (or other plausible reason) rather than just driving by, it seems unlikely. It's not a "thru street" from what I've seen.

JMO

Access by car is only from south or north on King east onto Queen, AFAIK. MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

This actually is important evidence the prosecution can use at trial, it is called CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence.

The majority of the time a defendant is convicted on more than just one piece of evidence, they are convicted on the TOTALITY of the evidence presented.

Sure, a defendant can be convicted on just one piece of DIRECT evidence such as an eye witness who saw the defendant commit the murders, etc...But even in cases such as these there is often circumstantial evidence that goes along with it.

BK was indicted for killing 4 innocent college students who were suppose to be totally safe sleeping in their beds at four o'clock in the morning on 1122 King Road.

BK was living 10 miles away yet in the months leading up to the murders his phone was pinging on at least 12 different occasions on the same cell tower that the victim's used at their home on 1122 King Road. This is circumstantial evidence.

BK's phone pinged eleven times in the late evening and early morning hours as opposed to daytime hours when it would have been easier to spot him, again, this is also circumstantial evidence.

And yes, the defense will say that even though BK's phone pinged on the 1122 King Road cell tower, it still doesn't prove he was actually on King Rd, he could have been in the area doing other things as you say.

But.....the prosecution has this........

A white Hyundai Elantra was seen near the victims' home around the time of the killings. This is the exact type and color of car BK drives.

The car is another piece of circumstantial evidence to add to the cell tower circumstantial evidence to add to the circumstantial evidence of BK messaging a victim multiple times, to add to the circumstantial evidence of wearing medical gloves multiple times, to add to the circumstantial evidence of fitting a witnesses' description of a man in the house that night......

BK washing the car over and over, when it was dark BK put trash in the neighbor's trash bin, BK's crime questions on reddit, BK in college studying a serial killer who also killed 4 people at once, BK's online postings about mental health, possibly his history of negative interactions with women, and so forth......

And what might be considered direct evidence - BK's DNA on a knife sheath left next to a victim.

TOTALITY of evidence.

No, I get that. I just am not convinced all this circumstantial evidence points to what everyone seems to think. I just think too many people have been convicted wrongfully on evidence like this so until I see it laid out more convincingly (like exactly where the car pinged, for example), I just don't buy the stalking charges because IMO, there can be an explanation for it. MOO.

 

[jepop]

BBM. That's because the defense doesn't usually get to release official information (like a PCA) and now they're gagged. That's really what I'm getting at. All we've seen thus far is evidence from one side and IMO, that evidence, while sufficient for a PCA, isn't sufficient for trial so until we see more, I maintain that we don't know if he stalked the girls, if he watched the house, etc. I want to keep an open mind in the absence of more direct evidence (not the same as saying he didn't do it, of course).

I've replied elsewhere about this and am in total agreement that there is (currently) insufficient evidence to prove stalking prior to Nov 13th.

 

[jepop]

Possibly. But the house is near the end of a cul de sac so I less they can show he was visiting someone nearby (or other plausible reason) rather than just driving by, it seems unlikely. It's not a "thru street" from what I've seen.

JMO

The pings as they stand right now, don't prove he was on Queen street during those 12 times though, IMO. Prosecution will need supporting digi data of some kind to go down that route IMO. They are probably collating and analysing data at the moment.MOO

 

[Yuletide]

No, I get that. I just am not convinced all this circumstantial evidence points to what everyone seems to think. I just think too many people have been convicted wrongfully on evidence like this so until I see it laid out more convincingly (like exactly where the car pinged, for example), I just don't buy the stalking charges because IMO, there can be an explanation for it. MOO.

I think when the evidence, in totality, is lined out at the trial, that there will be only one conclusion. My opinion only.