ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 69

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The science of dna and its use in criminal justice has been amazing. imo, this type of evidence is so removed from the ordinary person's knowledge and experience, it requires an expert to effectively explain what it is , its relevance to the case at hand, and how it points to the defendant's guilt. It's one thing to explain what dna is, but in a murder trial, context is everything! It may be circumstantial, but the prosecution's job is to lay it out to the jury in an understandable manner, and show them where it points to bk.
 
I can’t even begin to imagine how the parents of the victims feel knowing that the attorney that had been defending one of them is now defending the accused <modsnip - name calling> that slaughtered their innocent children !!!

My opinion
 
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I just don't think it has anything to do with intelligence. We (hopefully) do not understand the mind of a killer and what drives them, what they can justify, and what they're willing to do in relationship to what we would be willing to do. I am weirdly comforted by the fact that I cannot understand a mind like this. Lots of things had to go wrong in the suspects world to be brought to this point. JMHO.
I agree, My 'smart' comment had to do with an earlier poster suggesting he may have been trying to "outsmart"the police.There are just certain individuals from whom society must be protected. He may be one such. In California, a state facility, Atascadero, houses some of the worst.
 
I can’t even begin to imagine how the parents of the victims feel knowing that the attorney that had been defending one of them is now defending the accused monster that slaughtered their innocent children !!!

My opinion

I cannot imagine what any of the families are feeling and this also applies and extends itself to the Kohbergers. It must be surreal for all five families. Although we don't have any understanding of his family whatsoever (they have not spoken out), you just can't help but feel badly for everyone involved.
JMHO.
 
That may be what you believe, but I don't believe history will prove you right.

Data from 2020:

"Homicide: 64 defendants, half of all exonerees, were exonerated of homicide—61 for murder, two for manslaughter, and one for accessory to murder."

It still happens, even in this day and age. I choose to be careful and keep an open mind about ALL possibilities based on the facts and evidence until the trial. You can choose to approach it your way, that's fine.

If we all agreed, this place would be no fun. I think it's fine for us to see it differently and have different approaches to the evidence.

MOO.
"In this day and age". Our tech now is way better. Those peeps were convicted long ago. They also were not high profile cases (high profile being ones where even people not following the case know them like Chris Watts or Scott Peterson or Patrick Frazee). None. IMO. Some theories are basically ignoring so many facts about the situation and not relevant to reality IMO. The whole picture is what matters. BK is in jail for a reason. I guess this discussion has turned into 'ways BK can be innocent' but ignoring most of the actual facts of the case. IMO.
 
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"In this day and age". Our tech now is way better. Those peeps were convicted long ago. They alo were not high profile cases. None. IMO
Many, it was established, were wrongfully convicted by coerced confession, untrue eyewitness statements, suppressed evidence etc. What part of 18 years of your life is not high profile?
 
Even if that's how the professor intended it, I can't see him being able to process it that way. I think he would have seen it as humiliating, failing to appreciate that he was trying to hold the students to a higher standard. I think he would have resented it, resulting in a "screw this" reaction. It seems like he had that reaction since he starting giving everyone perfect scores after that. I don't know if anyone has suggested this or not, but I certainly hope that experience didn't push him to any sort of action, IYKWIM. MOOooo
Yea, I've often wondered if his suddenly (apparently/reportedly) giving "all" his students 100% on assessments post murders was related to the dress down, IMO, infront of the 150 students prior to the murders. That's what popped into my head when I first read about it. MOO
 
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Many, it was established, were wrongfully convicted by coerced confession, untrue eyewitness statements, suppressed evidence etc. What part of 18 years of your life is not high profile?
The same technology as today did not exist even 10 years ago. The DNA anaylsis, the phone, and cameras are all way better now and are on almost every home and business and traffic light and car. Now and forever into the future will both be way more difficult to get away with any crime let alone murder, and will see way fewer wrongful convictions. Also, social media wasn't a thing to make the victims famous and creating slueths like us here. IMO
 
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I don't think we know if he was hired or not.

Some theories are basically ignoring so many facts about the situation and not relevant to reality IMO. The whole picture is what matters. BK is in jail for a reason. I guess this discussion has turned into 'ways BK can be innocent' but ignoring most of the actual facts of the case. IMO.
BBM, Above snipped for focus:
On the other hand though, some theories are also speculating "facts" or future "facts" that are not in evidence as of yet. I don't see the (general) discussion on here as a ways BK may be innocent vs ways he could not be polarisation, but rather, what the *current evidence does or does not currently say regarding particular aspects of the case that may be raised in the future. That's why it gets a bit complicated and confusing IMO (lol).MOO

I agree that BK is in jail for a reason. He is there because the PCA was strong enough in the estimation of judge for them to issue an arrrest warrant for suspicion of first degree murder (x4) based on probable cause.


MOO
 
I thought DNA evidence was more direct than circumstantial. If DNA isn't direct evidence then what about fingerprints?

Obviously I need to do more research. I know for sure if a person/witness actually sees a killer commit murder, then gives testimony about it, their testimony is considered direct evidence.

I like the way you bring up the point that we can make inferences about the DNA found on the sheath. You mention the sheath could have been stolen from BK. Someone else mentioned BK touching the sheath in the store but he didn't buy it. Someone else mentioned BK being set up by someone, that someone planted his sheath at the crime scene.

When I look at it like this I can understand better why DNA might be considered circumstantial.

On every murder thread there are discussions that strongly discount the circumstantial evidence, saying it doesn't prove anything. However, from what I have seen, when you pair circumstantial evidence with DNA evidence you get a conviction almost every time. Even though DNA is apparently circumstantial evidence, nonetheless, it is considered very strong evidence by itself. When you take DNA evidence and add alot of circumstantial evidence with it, the DNA evidence becomes that much stronger.

I agree with posters who think the circumstantial evidence (we know of) might not meet the threshold for the required "beyond a reasonable doubt" to get a conviction in this Case.

But if expert witnesses can convince the jury that the sheath DNA is BK's DNA, and then the jury sees all the circumstantial evidence on top of that, I think there will be enough "beyond a reasonable doubt" evidence for a conviction.

Just my opinion and like I said, I need to do more research:

Circumstantial Evidence vs Direct Evidence.
All evidence is circumstantial except direct evidence. Direct evidence is when there is an eye witness or the crime is captured on video. Also ballistics, but that wouldn't apply in this case.

Fingerprints would be circumstantial because you still have to prove the suspect left them there at the time the crime was committed.

Any time you can make inferences, it is circumstantial evidence. When you can see the crime being carried out on video, there aren't many inferences you can make. That would be direct evidence.

But DNA is one of the strongest pieces of circumstantial evidence. I don't think it will be a problem. Imo
 
"In that case, as well as another where the parent faces two felony charges ..."

I interpret that to mean the same parent but on other charges.
Two charges same parent, not two separate parents with two separate charges, was my initial reading, but could be wrong MOO
 
I cannot imagine what any of the families are feeling and this also applies and extends itself to the Kohbergers. It must be surreal for all five families. Although we don't have any understanding of his family whatsoever (they have not spoken out), you just can't help but feel badly for everyone involved.
JMHO.
Mr. Goncalves has spoken out in support of the death penalty. I've seen no indication that any of the parents are against the public defender representing BK. Why wouldn't they want the most qualified attorney?
 
then why would it be in the PCA?
12 Pings data was discovered on 23 Dec (per PCA), BK arrested 30 DEc

IMO, remove the 12 pings from PCA, PCA definitely still stands. They're there as a foreshadowing...of evidence that may yet come. MOO

If the 12 Pings come to nothing for the prosecution (which personally I don't speculate will be the case) then that's no problem as related to probable cause affadavit.

The main aspect to this, IMO, is that at the time probable cause written and arrest warrant executed, LE had the 12 pings but no time or accesss to more phone data to expand that as evidence suggestive of premeditation/stalking pre Nov 13th..Pings are suggestive enough, given the other evidence in the PCA, to be included. But, as it stands, they do not put BK on Queen street those 12 times. Evidence to come may do. MOO
 
Just in relation to the pings and stalking. There were no specific times or locations pointed out in the PCA. Just estimated locations of using the cellular resources providing coverage to the house during the late evening and early morning hours (11 out of the twelve times between June to Nov) Page 16 of PCA.

That could mean anywhere from 10-6 (for me that would be 9-9 lol). Who knows how big the area of coverage is? Just with my quick searching, in addition to the gym and store mentioned, there are also two apartment complexes next to the house, multiple houses, bars, and two parks. With GPS they may have placed him right at the house, or they may have placed him at a house, apartment, or establishment nearby. They could place him in different areas on different days. They even say in the PCA "at least" twelve times, it could even be more. They could have all happened in November, been spread out regularly over the June to November period, or occurred in multiple clusters. There is not enough information, yet. JMO

 
Just in relation to the pings and stalking. There were no specific times or locations pointed out in the PCA. Just estimated locations of using the cellular resources providing coverage to the house during the late evening and early morning hours (11 out of the twelve times between June to Nov) Page 16 of PCA.

That could mean anywhere from 10-6 (for me that would be 9-9 lol). Who knows how big the area of coverage is? Just with my quick searching, in addition to the gym and store mentioned, there are also two apartment complexes next to the house, multiple houses, bars, and two parks. With GPS they may have placed him right at the house, or they may have placed him at a house, apartment, or establishment nearby. They could place him in different areas on different days. They even say in the PCA "at least" twelve times, it could even be more. They could have all happened in November, been spread out regularly over the June to November period, or occurred in multiple clusters. There is not enough information, yet. JMO

I agree re lack of more precise locations (which is why the PCA has nothing to say on that). MOO

Regarding the times...all but one in late eve or early morning hours on each of those dates.

IMO, LE included the times cos suggestive, I'd be surprised investigators would have worded it that way if the times of the 11 relevant Pings were prior to 9/10pm and after say 3/4am. Just thinking if that turned out to be the case, defense would suggest disingenous down the road. I don't think LE would take that risk, I don't imagine there's anything in the PCA that is disingenous (sp?) ie deliberately misleading - as that might lead to possible problem for prosecution in future. MOO
 
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I agree re lack of more precise locations (which is why the PCA has nothing to say on that). MOO

Regarding the times...all but one in late eve or early morning hours on each of those dates.

IMO, LE included the times cos suggestive, I'd be surprised investigators would have worded it that way if the times of the 11 relevant Pings were prior to 9/10pm and after say 3/4am. Just thinking if that turned out to be the case, defense would suggest disingenous down the road. I don't think LE would take that risk, I don't imagine there's anything in the PCA that is disingenous (sp?) ie deliberately misleading - as that might lead to possible problem for prosecution in future. MOO
100%

I'll add there is one instance where they give a time. August 21 between 10:34-11.35. And at 11:37 he was at Farm Road and Pullman Highway (traffic stop)

 
100%

I'll add there is one instance where they give a time. August 21 between 10:34-11.35. And at 11:37 he was at Farm Road and Pullman Highway (traffic stop)

Good spot! Also I forget that the pings may well show a time range, not just one specific time.

I think that might well be the first time. Can't find the specific page at the moment and so many issues copy and paste from this doc, but if you're interested and have the time (speaking of time!), LE application for search warrant covers search for digital data on BK's devices (at least those located in appartment but also any there that connect with others he might own) explicitly from 21 August, not earlier. I posted the section directly into one of my posts on earlier thread.

That really jumped out at me. Makes me think, LE is looking for digi evidence that might support obsession (and stalking) from 21 Aug because the first phone Ping (of the 12 mentioned) occurred on 21 August (ie seat belt infraction). Speculation base off below. MOO

 
Some people here have pointed out that Jackie at the Mad Greek can’t possibly know that BK never set foot in the Mad Greek restaurant. That may be true.

But it is possible that Jackie has good reason to say that the anonymous source lied to People magazine. Here are just a few possibilities, I’m sure others can add more:

--The point of sale system at the Mad Greek may enable Jackie to identify every vegan pizza she has ever sold and to link that order to a server, to payment info, and dates and times. The anonymous server may never have taken an order for even one vegan pizza. Or he may have sold hundreds, but maybe all were paid for by credit cards that have nothing whatever to do with BK. Also, if LE pursued this line of inquiry, they would know whether or not Mr. Anonymous worked at the Mad Greek only when BK was in class or when BK’s phone pinged exclusively in Pullman.

--There might have been language in Mr. Anonymous’s account that points to a contradiction with how things work at the Mad Greek. For example, Mr. Anonymous says BK wanted to make sure that his vegan pizza didn’t come in contact with meat products. Maybe it is Mad Greek policy to always warn vegans that there is only one pizza oven and a vegan pizza might be cooked on the very same spot a double-pepperoni finished baking just moments before. My point isn’t that my example is likely (I actually think it is not), but that there may have been something in the anonymous account that Jackie (and perhaps many Mad Greek employees) know can’t be true.

--He may be a former server, but he may not have worked during the relevant time (i.e. he left his employment there before BK arrived in the PNW from PA).

--He may be someone Jackie spoke to after the murders and after the arrest of BK and the answers he gave her then are the opposite from what he is telling People. That alone would make him a liar, albeit we can’t say with certainty to which party he issued the lie.

I find it interesting that Jackie specifically urges us to pay attention to what does and does not get presented in court. She certainly couldn’t bring herself to say directly, “The police, the prosecution, and I all know that there is no evidence whatsoever for what this anonymous dude is saying.”

It’s also intriguing that the anonymous source turned to People magazine and not a more news-intensive outlet. Even the Idaho Statesman would have got everyone’s attention—as it has with their story on Anne Taylor and the possible conflict of interest controversy, which has been republished in other places, starting with YahooNews (already linked here several times).

So why People magazine? The story certainly gets a huge splash because People is everywhere. Jackie speaks of the anonymous source wanting fame, but Mr. Anonymous is unknown. And if he is not telling the truth, what motivates such behavior?

[Long-time Websleuths member who lurks but hasn’t had the time to post in years.]
I agree 100% (I'd mentioned the whole system issue as soon as this single-sourced story came out). I've waitered and managed in the past; haven't done so for years but even 15 years ago most restaurants were using systems that do everything @Orange Tabby mentioned. I hope, for the sake of everyone at MG and all the loved ones of the victims, that this all becomes irrelevant when every bit of physical evidence is examined and justice is served.
 
I cannot imagine what any of the families are feeling and this also applies and extends itself to the Kohbergers. It must be surreal for all five families. Although we don't have any understanding of his family whatsoever (they have not spoken out), you just can't help but feel badly for everyone involved.
JMHO.
<modsnip - name calling> just stating what BK's family statement included, love and support. I believe their denial of his homicidal nature may lessen with evidence given but not their love. AJMO
 
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