ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 70

[Nila Aella]

IMO, the response doesn't imply that not all exculpatory evidence has been produced. Whether evidence is exculpatory or not depends on what the defendant is claiming in his defense. For example, if he is claiming that he did drive the car to the neighborhood on previous occasions but that he went to visit a friend in a nearby apartment, evidence that he did have and visit the friend would be exculpatory. But if he's claiming that he was never in the neighborhood, then such evidence would not be exculpatory.

Yes! Maybe they did provide what they know appears to be exculpatory and his defense might make them aware of additional exculpatory evidence. JMO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Really? I think you're giving a perp who left a knife sheath at the scene of the crime (among other errors that allowed a quick perp ID) WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT.

MOO

I don't think it's giving him way too much credit to consider he could have done a very thorough job of planning the crimes and researching his victims' lives (e.g., driving around their neighborhood 12 times beforehand) and thinking of possible "good cover" context, and he could have "botched" or not been as careful when committing the actual crimes in some ways. JMO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Far out. I respect your right to speculate but reading that just about fried my brain circuits with its complexity. It seems far far from the realms of possibility to me but that is JMO ofcourse. If LE are investigating with the same rigour and professionalism they used to gain arrest (MOO), I think we will see much more evidence on the how of the crime at the PH (and/or trial). EBM - sentence delete.

I don't think it's that complex to consider he could have done a very thorough job of planning the crimes and researching his victims' lives (e.g., driving around their neighborhood 12 times beforehand) and thinking of possible "good cover" context. JMO

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Items I did not see listed or addressed: Please correct me if I missed something or if I am wrong on one or more. MOO

#10 Search warrants
#12 Inducement
#13 Indentification
#14 Other crimes,wrongs or acts
#15 Electronic Surveillance
#16 Drugs
#17 Supoenas
#18 Certifications of LE

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/011023%20Request%20for%20Discovery.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/012323%20States%20Response%20to%20Request%20for%20Discovery.pdf

edit: added links and MOO

Thank you for this great compilation.
Could it be possible, Nila Aella, that many of the items you've listed were reduced to printed copies and thus included in the 995 pages that were disclosed to the defendant's counsel?

 

[Cindizzi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1619029281405034497

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/012323 States Response to Request for Discovery.pdf

 

[Cassady]

I agree that it would be healthy for the public to understand better the COI rules (and other ethical standards) that apply to attorneys (I think the coverage has done an extremely poor job of that, so far). However, I think it's important to remember a couple of things:

1. The public interest in transparency must be balanced against the defendant's rights to have a fair trial by an impartial tribunal, in which he is presumed innocent until guilt is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Absolute openness can never be an absolute good in these circumstances.

2. The Constitutional requirement that hearings and trials be open to the public assures that we will know the charges, the evidence supporting them, and the legal issues presented. To me, this diminishes the urgency to know every detail from the time of arrest. Public oversight isn't about media attracting eyeballs by sensationalizing issues and satisfying salacious curiosity: it's about assuring that our justice system is working as intended.

3. The Colorado rule setting standards for closing court records allows a judge to do so for compelling reasons, which she must state in her order, and this is still commonly done before the preliminary hearing. The article you have cited is from 2021, just after the rule became effective. The problem with the judge's order sealing the record was not that sealing was unjustified: rather, it was that the judge did not specify her reasons for doing so. After the closure allowed time for careful redaction of the records, they were unsealed.

Or how about when the Court orders that the press not cover a case at all...like is happening in central Oregon right now:

Judge's gag order of trial media coverage earns swift rebuke

MADRAS - A circuit court judge for Jefferson and Crook counties overseeing a manslaughter trial in Madras has ordered media outlets to withhold printing stories about the case until the

www.capitalpress.com

The press gets a lot of stuff wrong...IMO, but keeping them from covering a public trial is so far out-of-bounds and unconstitutional that it is shocking that it is occuring in the U.S. in 2023.

 

[jepop]

I don't think it's about "the masses" & doubt public sentiment will play any role in the final decision to find another PD or keep AT on the case.

I also think it is GREAT such an issue is in the public domain. Criminal justice issues mostly get resolved behind closed doors.
[snipped for focus]
Except for the unfortunate consequence of three parents of the victims having their public criminal records outed, this very public conflict of interest debate is to me a healthy one.

If we want the media to alert us on such issues then we have to understand it may "blow up." It's much worse for the norm - secrecy - to rule the day.

JMO

Not bagging an approved source. Commenting on connection between the public debate re yay or nay COI and the players and victims in this case.

IMO the "unfortunate consequences" could easily have been avoided, at least in relation to both parents of the second victim, simply by MSM deciding not to name them. Or even better, by making the decision to not publicise the fact at all, pending some investigative reporting into what constitutes a COI. I feel the vulnerable and grieving parent interviewed and seen by millions of the public was exploited in order to bring the issue sensationally before the public eye. MOO

Whilst I think it's good that the public learn about legal processes, the greatness of COIs being in the public realm for debate would be helped along, IMO, by having media inform and report accurately and sensitively; but mostly alI I have seen in MSM is the exposure of vulnerable victims, the ill informed and ill spirited demonisation of a Public Defender, and the undermining of trust in the PDO MOO
I personally wouldn't describe much of what I have read and seen in MSM as encouraging healthy debate.

If there is soemthing to resolve it will get resolved and the public will move on with no consequences, the media with no consequences, three parents (victims), and likely the PD qualified to be on the case, with consequences. MOO

EBM

 

[jepop]

I don't think it's that complex to consider he could have done a very thorough job of planning the crimes and researching his victims' lives (e.g., driving around their neighborhood 12 times beforehand) and thinking of possible "good cover" context. JMO

My brain fried at the time, but I read you again after I soaked it, and I (think) I get you now I think it's a variation on the I'm smarter than law enforcement theory but in his mind. I guess he might have thought that way and told himself, 'good cover', everything is aligning in terms of my chosen house, victims and method. But then he drove his car up and down the street etc, so there would have to be a large element of grandiose delusion in his' good cover' thoughts. Can't know ofcourse, but I see the logic.

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Idaho Murders: Bryan Kohberger Joined Facebook Group Dedicated To Finding Suspect​

International Business Times
Kent Masing
01/26/23

"KEY POINTS

• An ex-FBI agent followed a suspicious account in a Facebook group dedicated to find the Idaho murders suspect
• Bryan Kohberger's alleged Facebook account's posts in the group found to be factually accurate
• The mother of Kohberger's alleged victim said she had no idea the suspect was "trolling the Facebook groups""

Bryan Kohberger, who is accused of killing four Idaho college students, reportedly joined a Facebook group dedicated to discussing the gruesome murders and finding the suspect.
... [...] ...
But Kohberger's alleged Facebook account was removed from the online group shortly before the suspect's arrest on Dec. 30, 2022, with an administrator claiming that the user "argued incessantly with people" and published posts "similar to Bryan's crime questions."
... [...] ...
The allegation that Kohberger joined a Facebook group discussing the murder shocked Cara Northington, the mother of Xana Kernodle, one of his alleged victims.

Northington joined Facebook groups dedicated to finding out who the Idaho murder suspect is weeks after her daughter was killed.

"That was shocking... Absolutely shocking," Northington said, the Daily Mail reported.

"I had no idea he was trolling the groups like that."

Kernodle's mother said it showed Kohberger was a "sick-minded person" and "very sick in the head."
... [...] ..."

Idaho Murders: Bryan Kohberger Joined Facebook Group Dedicated To Finding Suspect

 

[Zella]

I don't think it's that complex to consider he could have done a very thorough job of planning the crimes and researching his victims' lives (e.g., driving around their neighborhood 12 times beforehand) and thinking of possible "good cover" context. JMO

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if he spent a fair amount of time planning it. That doesn't mean his planning was particularly effective (as a lot of people have noted, you can be very good at academia and lack common sense--academia also, IMO, encourages people to be deep thinkers about a rather narrow field of knowledge, which doesn't apply well outside of that theoretical context, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's had a somewhat uniquely sheltered experience from the real world due to his background despite his age, which is also going to limit the effectiveness of one's plan) or that he didn't completely wig out in the moment and have his plans go awry pretty quickly, which I suspect is what happened. MOO

 

[Edvis]

I don't think it's giving him way too much credit to consider he could have done a very thorough job of planning the crimes and researching his victims' lives (e.g., driving around their neighborhood 12 times beforehand) and thinking of possible "good cover" context, and he could have "botched" or not been as careful when committing the actual crimes in some ways. JMO

Even well laid plans for murdering another fall short if's one's bloodlust takes over, thrill of the kill.

 

[ktm44]

I don't think it's that complex to consider he could have done a very thorough job of planning the crimes and researching his victims' lives (e.g., driving around their neighborhood 12 times beforehand) and thinking of possible "good cover" context. JMO

I would suggest that he may have thought he did a great job of planning but I don't think his plan worked as well as he had hoped.

There is no way any person could every plan or prepare for taking 4 human lives. There was no assurances that the house he entered wasn't armed, he couldn't have known for sure that all victims were sleeping, that none would fight back or disarm him and detain or kill him with his own weapon, the dog was secured or could easily be secured and he obviously wasn't in a position to ensure there were no witnesses.

 

[Nila Aella]

Thank you for this great compilation.
Could it be possible, Nila Aella, that many of the items you've listed were reduced to printed copies and thus included in the 995 pages that were disclosed to the defendant's counsel?

#11 Of the response

The State objects to requests by the Defendant for anything not otherwise addressed above on the grounds that such requests are outside the scope of C.R. 16 and/or are not subject to disclosure under ICR 16(g) (work product and informants).

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/012323%20States%20Response%20to%20Request%20for%20Discovery.pdf

 

[CuriousObserver1]

For those that can’t view the ABC 20/20 TV episode with interviews with family / friends about the victims, and all about the case it is on a podcast here:


Horror in Idaho : The Student Murders

The latest reporting on the investigation, exclusive interviews and chilling new details in the Idaho case.

‎20/20: Horror in Idaho: The Student Murders on Apple Podcasts

‎Show 20/20, Ep Horror in Idaho: The Student Murders - 14 Jan 2023

podcasts.apple.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

You don't have to treat someone unfairly to exploit them. Using their story for your professional gain without regard for what they're going through is exploitation. The media has been exploiting the victims' families since November, IMO.

MOO

The media and social media have been exploiting victim's families since the beginning of time. It's just a whole lot easier to do it today with all of the information at our fingertips.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I would suggest that he may have thought he did a great job of planning but I don't think his plan worked as well as he had hoped.

There is no way any person could every plan or prepare for taking 4 human lives. There was no assurances that the house he entered wasn't armed, he couldn't have known for sure that all victims were sleeping, that none would fight back or disarm him and detain or kill him with his own weapon, the dog was secured or could easily be secured and he obviously wasn't in a position to ensure there were no witnesses.

ITA, I can almost guarantee that BK hadn't planned on Xana ordering door dash at that time.

MOO

 

[DizzyB]

IF the sheath had not contained DNA, would BK be in jail right now? Would they have known it was him, but not had enough for a judge to sign a warrant? Is that the sole source of DNA found at the scene?

 

[al66pine]

"The Top" or "Most Effective" Counsel?

Or, if she is replaced with a different public defender, he would claim he did not have the most effective counsel because she is the top public defender.

@jcamh

Briefly and oversimplifying, crim defendants are entitled to "assistance of counsel,” that is a competent attorney representing them, giving reasonable professional assistance.* Not entitled to the top or best. Sorry, BCK, not seeing a successful appeal on that basis, imo.

Not so briefly.
OP characterizes AT as "the top" PD, which IIRC is how some posters here describe her.
Somewhat subjective, okay but on to OP’s point.
If AT is replaced, BCK will be counseled and represented by two attys from the “Capital Counsel Roster”** --- one atty as “lead counsel” (from 13 on list) and another as “co-counsel” (from 23 on list).

After conviction, sure, absolutely positively, BCK could claim on APPEAL he did not have “the MOST EFFECTIVE” or “THE TOP” counsel.

That claim is a horse of a different color than “INEFFECTIVE ASSISTANCE OF COUNSEL” (IAC) meaning trial counsel “performed so ineffectively that it deprived the defendant of his Sixth Amendment Constitutional right.”

See below* re U.S. Sup.Ct’s Strickland Test that appellate courts use in deciding whether convicted person had IAC, and if so, to overturn the conviction and order a new trial.

Given that BCK’s two attys would be selected from ID’s “Capital Counsel Roster” w some heavy duty qualifications,*** I doubt he would gain any traction for an appellate decision actually overturning a conviction.

Imo As always welcoming clarification or correction, esp’ly from our legal professionals.

________________________________________
* In United States law, ineffective assistance of counsel (IAC[1]) is a claim raised by a convicted criminal defendant asserting that the defendant's legal counsel performed so ineffectively that it deprived the defendant of the constitutional right guaranteed by the Assistance of Counsel Clause of the Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution. Ineffectiveness claims may only be brought where the defendant had the right to counsel, ordinarily during the critical stages of a prosecution.[2]
Having the "benefit of counsel" or "assistance of counsel" means that the criminal defendant has had a competent attorney representing them. Competence is defined as reasonable professional assistance and is defined in part by prevailing professional norms and standards. To prove they received ineffective assistance, a criminal defendant must show two things:
1. Deficient performance by counsel
2. Resulting prejudice, in that but for the deficient performance, there is a “reasonable probability” that the result of the proceeding would have differed."

Ineffective assistance of counsel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

** "Death Penalty Qualified" Attys in ID. “Capital Counsel Roster”
ID.’s Dec. 15, 2022 list of attys approved by the st Public Defense Commission* to rep. INDIGENT defendants in CAPITAL cases has 29 attys, w only 13 attys qualified as "LEAD TRIAL”(including Anne Taylor) and 23 attys qualified as "CO-COUNSEL TRIAL."
The list headed is available here: https://pdc.idaho.gov/wp-
Qualifications to be on Capital Counsel Roster:

A further point of clarification: Anne Taylor is Chief PD in Kootenai County and IIUC supervises multiple other attys in that office.

*** Capital Defending Attorney Qualifications and Roster

 

[Dotta]

Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger defense receives hundreds of documents from prosecutors

Latah County prosecutors turned over hundreds of pages of documents to Idaho student murders suspect Bryan Kohberger's defense this week, court records show.

www.foxnews.com

 

[girlhasnoname]

IF the sheath had not contained DNA, would BK be in jail right now? Would they have known it was him, but not had enough for a judge to sign a warrant? Is that the sole source of DNA found at the scene?

I think the erratic behavior of the white Elantra driving around the home that night would have still led to them to BK, maybe not as quickly.

MOO