ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 11

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MamaZA said:
The dog.
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Sorry I should have clarified. I think this means that a photo we all have seen is important. As in social media. It shows something we don’t see. Like the dog. Or the person taking the photo. Possibly how tall the photographer appears to be. I know when I take photos on my phone, I usually have several taken at a time. Possibly the photos we have seen publicly have someone else included on their phones of the photos taken at the same time/day. This type of wording would make the person worry - which might be LE’s intention.
 
Somewhat disappointing PC today that left me wondering why it was held? I think it was largely held to reassure the community and to address safety measures moving forward. The town and University both want students to return after the holiday so they are downplaying any danger and focusing on the targeted angle.

I do think this was targeted and I wonder if there weren't multiple targets? I also think the perp left some sign indicating a target at the scene. Maybe a note, a word, or something more cryptic, but I think it left the impression of a score having been settled in a crazy person's mind.

If you've ever been woken up in the middle of the night, you know how easy it would be to sneak up on someone. Alcohol likely makes it even easier. I know from personal experience that it takes several seconds for your mind to work out what's happening when somebody sneaks up on you in the middle of the night. Your mind pretty quickly registers confusion and fear but it initially tries to find familiarity and meaning not rooted in terror. Those few seconds (maybe 15-20) is enough time for a perp to kill. You don't wake up ready to fight or aware and that's why it's often a preferred method of killers. Even if your faced with a stranger, your mind doesn't immediate register this fact. It first browses quickly through your catalog of known people before settling on the terrifying fact that you don't know who the person facing you in the dark is. Victims are vulnerable in multiple ways and perps are well aware of these disadvantages. Likewise, sleeping people, especially inebriated ones can be difficult to wake up so it's very possible that nobody heard a thing. It's been suggested that at least one of the victims probably had defensive wounds, but my guess is there were very minimal signs of such wounds. These were blitz attack type killings that happens very quickly. There was no prolonged struggle. The perp likely knew where on the body to stab. Additional wounds could have been overkill or possibly were done to remove any doubt that each victim was dead.


I don't think the perp showered in the house. We don't know details of the crime scene, but I think the perp could have largely avoid splatter etc by killing from a certain angle. From behind would be good but that doesn't line up with victims being in bed. I suppose some simple research could provide a perp with this type of information. Naturally, if they were killed in bed then there would be no blood on the floor to be tracked about. Taking a towel or article of clothing would make it easy to open a door without leaving blood behind. Add a hoody, mask, and gloves and a perp could easily remove any noticeable signs of having committed a violent murder.

I think it was a solo male perp who has interacted with the victims in the recent past. I think the two surviving roommates weren't killed because they weren't involved in whatever set off the perp. I don't think they heard a thing and I don't find their behavior odd the next morning. I don't think the perp is anybody who was close to the victims. I don't think the police have a suspect but do have a solid theory and clear idea of how and why. This is all just moo.
 
L.laricina said:
So a thought about the importance of video and the "what you don't see being as important as what you do see."

LE can use exterior surveillance cameras to track a subject's route through an area. It takes time, but imagine 10 houses in a row, each with a doorbell camera pointing to the street. A subject running down the street appears on the first 6 cameras, but not on the last 4. This shows that the running subject did not continue on that route. They may have gone into one of the buldings, gotten into a vehicle, or changed direction. If they changed direction you would want to check the cameras (if any) on all of the possible routes from the point of the last camera that caught an image of the running subject.

Obviously, a resident would only know what was on their camera, so having video from as many cameras as you can is important, even if there is nothing on your own video.
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This police chief has a strange way of wording things. He could have been more direct and said, "We want your videos and images between xx:xx and xx:xx no matter whether it shows people in them or not." "An empty video is just as important to us as a video with people in it"

He does too much "police-speak".
 
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Miriel Pastor of Vows said:
The presence or absence of DNA for the perpetrator should be a telling detail.

I think it likely they do have evidence of this and that it will lead to resolution of the case soon.
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North_Idaho_Nony said:
I’m caught up - didn’t think it would happen. So 2 questions.

For those who think the perp is female, can you point me to cases where a knife mass murder of non-family members was committed by a female?

Second, is it possible the cops have used cell phone data to determine the times the various housemates arrived back home?

Thx!
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Susan Atkins Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel did the stabbing in the Tate-Labianca murders in Aug of 1969.
 
vike16 said:
More of my own thinking.
I had been confused before about how the killer could be so confident to go in and attack 4 people as all it would take is one person calling 911 for the whole thing to fall apart. But the news that K and M were drinking the night of and it sounds like doing drunk dialing or something of that sort makes it a lot more clear. Given that, they would be a LOT slower to react, especially already asleep. We know X was able to fight for her life and maybe E too. But it seems like someone who probably knew that K was back in town for the weekend. I lean toward her being the target because of timing, if the attack happens a different weekend, she's not there. If the killer could tell either during the evening or through the windows that K and M weren't 100% able to defend themselves like they would normally, that might be enough to spur someone to go for it.
Ultimately, I think timing also plays a big role in this. I doubt E slept there every night. In fact pick a different night and E and K probably aren't there at all. So there has to be a reason the killer picked THIS particular night to go in instead of a different one. I don't know what it is but LE probably has some ideas.
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Yeah and if that guy was scoping that house for a period of time, he'd probably be alerted to Kaylee's new car. He's probably seen it online in one of her social media posts (not sure if she mentioned it at all online). If he had no knowledge of that car he had to wonder who that belonged to. Or did he not care?

I can't imagine he doesn't go in without seeing how many cars are parked out front. He had to have been cognizant of that. I'm wondering, does he just pick a time when he thinks all the residents will be in the house? Does he just decide, you know what, 3 am i'm heading over there. If the lights are out, I'll wait half an hour-45 minutes just to make sure everybody's asleep. If that's the scenario and you look out front at the cars, you see the range rover. That's a big vehicle, you can transport quite a few people in that vehicle. How does he know that car wasn't packed with several male friends and that they were going to just happen to crash at the house?

As some have mentioned, maybe he was watching on twitch and realized it was just K and M together and them two alone. Or maybe he was stalking somewhere near the front for a couple hours and was able to see the cars pull up and know exactly how many people were entering the home. If so, where's he camping? It's kind of cold out this time of year.

Maybe this guy has a window view of the front. He can see exactly who comes and goes into that house. His route to the back (which is how i believed he entered the home) would be indirect meaning he'd go around a few buildings and slowly work his way to the wooded area.

All speculation obviously. This waiting game is pretty tough. I'm kind of flip flopping between somebody who knew and was rejected by one of the victims and a crazy voyeur/killer that lives close by.
 
drmrgrl said:
Susan Atkins Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel did the stabbing in the Tate-Labianca murders in Aug of 1969.
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Thanks - I’m familiar. I’m looking for a sole female knife-wielding mass murderer.

Gotta say - I’d not thought of 2 female perps until your comment! Gulp.

I love reading other ideas, how people think here - thanks to all.
 
MamaZA said:
I was thinking about this too. Possibly they mean that the fact that nothing is seen suggests it may have been someone inside the home, or someone seen coming and going like normal. I imagine if the crime occurred from within the home by a trusted friend, this type of comment would be haunting. I can’t wait until this is solved because knowing there is someone out there is so scary!!

I also still feel a closer look should be taken at that grub truck video. There are others that seem potentially suspicious.
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I agree. I’m worried that LE never saw anyone arrive or leave in any direction around the time frame of the murder.
 
If the women on the third floor were the first two victims and were killed in separate rooms, LE should be able to tell who was killed first. The person who was killed first will probably not have blood from the other victims on her. However, the second, third and fourth victims will probably have blood from the prior victims on or near them since the attacker would almost certainly have transferred blood from room to room. The person who was killed first was likely, although not definitely, the target. Also, if one of the victims had unusual wounds that show over-kill or an attempt to humiliate, that would also show who the target likely was. JMO.
 
I know that a lot of students left early for Thanksgiving. So we know there was a huge outflow of people leaving Moscow for the holidays even without the issue of multiple murders. I have heard anecdotal information that some students, rattled by the murders, intend to stay away until the new semester. I'm not sure what the university's plan is for resuming studies under the circumstances.

But what about any individuals who don't attend university who may have also just up and left? Maybe some who worked in a bar or restaurant or a construction company, delivery job, any job that doesn't shut down during the holidays. If I was an investigator I'd be checking any stores, restaurants (especially those where the victims worked) or service people who have very recently quit.

The possibility that this was a complete stranger is practically nil, imo. Whoever did this has had some kind of interaction with the deceased. Whether through a casual meeting at a party or concert, a coffee shop or store, walking a dog, anything where a casual interaction could take place. And not a one-off situation, either, more like one those "oh, fancy meeting you again" situations that elicits recognition on the part of the victim. Circumstances that make it easier for the assailant to insinuate their way into a situation that doesn't appear strange, perhaps waiting for food from the grub truck (I'm aware the hoodie guy has been cleared). I don't think the killer attends university.

At this point in time, I don't think there's more than one killer, either. I would be very surprised if there were two. There's plenty of instances of pairs working in tandem to kill but most of those rely on abduction and a kill site, not entering private residences where you could conceivably leave a wealth of DNA plus it's not an environment you can control. IMO MOO
 
I have been paying attention to news reports regarding this quadruple murder, as well as reading this forum when I have a chance - (am way behind with no time to catch up completely here on websleuths because of the number of great posts by committed sleuths here.)

As much as everyone, I have been waiting for it to be announced who the suspect is "any minute now". The horrendous murder of 4 beautiful young people is hard to accept and everyone wants answers. There is such frustration and criticism of how the investigation has been handled etc. because it is hard to fathom that the perpetrator may get away with this, but the perpetrator may.

I know one poster above said this case reminded them of BTK, and to a degree, it does me also, but without the sexual component. But then I think of Jayme Closs. Jake Patterson blazed into that home and took out, murdered, two adults, and then made Jayme captive in a flurry of in and out. He planned and pulled this off by simply following a school bus one day and seeing Jayme exit and decided that she was his target. He was not on anyone's radar. Had she not escaped captivity, I do not believe her case would have been solved, not for years or ever maybe.

The police say this was "targeted", of course, it was, but they say that to give hope to us that they know something, they do not and they are scrambling. But, IMO, I agree it was targeted and planned, if not an hour or day or month in advance but the perpetrator knew when to strike and probably what he/she would be up against. (I personally have no doubt the killer is a male but that is just my opinion). To say it was not targeted would mean some random person on a whim, with a thirst for blood, just randomly and spontaneously, picked some unknown residence and gambled, with their Rambo knife in hand, that they could enter and easily kill as many as they wanted. I personally doubt that was the case. There is definitely a killer on the loose.

Think about Israel Keyes and what he got away with, and Joseph Duncan. Scary people and horrible crimes. Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer. It took months, years actually, and a lot of dead victims before those cold blooded killers were brought to justice. I pray not, but at the end of the day, I believe that is where these murders are headed, to a dead end. I would love to be wrong. Time will tell, but I think these murders way surpass tying a supposed dog skinner or stalker or random person at the food truck to what happened that fateful day for these four beautiful young people that were brutally murdered. May they rest in peace.
 
Friday Fan said:
It was the last home game of the season.

Both K and M appear to be intoxicated in the grub truck video The Carbonara effect... we'll never reveal our secret ingredient - grubtruckers on Twitch at 3hr and 43 min.
I think the killer took advantage of the fact that it was the last home game and the town would be full of college students who would be partying and drinking and could be subdued. I don't see K as much as the target as the killer taking advantage of an opportunity.
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So in that scenario, sounds like that would be someone who knew them, right?
Otherwise how would he find them so immediately?
 
redswan said:
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This is really such a tragic case. Looking at the more casual photos of these students, they look just like students when I was in college many years ago: the jeans, the sweatshirts, even the hairstyles. Such a carefree sense of fun and exhuberence.

They have all been in college for two or three years, are experienced with the whole college scene, working part-time jobs to make a few extra bucks.
They have all become lifelong friends. Really just finishing up their last year or so and excited to soon be stepping out into the real world. What a terrible thing to happen.
 
chuckyinvestigates said:
If he didn't lock the door, then how do you explain the surviving roommates describing them as "unconscious". There is no possible way if they had visual contact with any of the victims that they would have thought they were just unconscious. MOO.
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I can’t answer that, however, I believe the 911 call could. MOO
 
shushu said:
Somewhat disappointing PC today that left me wondering why it was held? I think it was largely held to reassure the community and to address safety measures moving forward. The town and University both want students to return after the holiday so they are downplaying any danger and focusing on the targeted angle.

I do think this was targeted and I wonder if there weren't multiple targets? I also think the perp left some sign indicating a target at the scene. Maybe a note, a word, or something more cryptic, but I think it left the impression of a score having been settled in a crazy person's mind.

If you've ever been woken up in the middle of the night, you know how easy it would be to sneak up on someone. Alcohol likely makes it even easier. I know from personal experience that it takes several seconds for your mind to work out what's happening when somebody sneaks up on you in the middle of the night. Your mind pretty quickly registers confusion and fear but it initially tries to find familiarity and meaning not rooted in terror. Those few seconds (maybe 15-20) is enough time for a perp to kill. You don't wake up ready to fight or aware and that's why it's often a preferred method of killers. Even if your faced with a stranger, your mind doesn't immediate register this fact. It first browses quickly through your catalog of known people before settling on the terrifying fact that you don't know who the person facing you in the dark is. Victims are vulnerable in multiple ways and perps are well aware of these disadvantages. Likewise, sleeping people, especially inebriated ones can be difficult to wake up so it's very possible that nobody heard a thing. It's been suggested that at least one of the victims probably had defensive wounds, but my guess is there were very minimal signs of such wounds. These were blitz attack type killings that happens very quickly. There was no prolonged struggle. The perp likely knew where on the body to stab. Additional wounds could have been overkill or possibly were done to remove any doubt that each victim was dead.


I don't think the perp showered in the house. We don't know details of the crime scene, but I think the perp could have largely avoid splatter etc by killing from a certain angle. From behind would be good but that doesn't line up with victims being in bed. I suppose some simple research could provide a perp with this type of information. Naturally, if they were killed in bed then there would be no blood on the floor to be tracked about. Taking a towel or article of clothing would make it easy to open a door without leaving blood behind. Add a hoody, mask, and gloves and a perp could easily remove any noticeable signs of having committed a violent murder.

I think it was a solo male perp who has interacted with the victims in the recent past. I think the two surviving roommates weren't killed because they weren't involved in whatever set off the perp. I don't think they heard a thing and I don't find their behavior odd the next morning. I don't think the perp is anybody who was close to the victims. I don't think the police have a suspect but do have a solid theory and clear idea of how and why. This is all just moo.
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Excellent observations about waking up to find a stranger. Of course, worst fear here and I may not sleep now. But with the blood, Idt that's going to be a simple stab and go. Esp in the chest, throat, cutting arteries, etc., four people, likely these two types of spray plus who knows what else, too there's going to be some blood most likely.

Blood can leave the body in many different ways, depending on the type of injury inflicted. It can flow, drip, spray, spurt, gush or just ooze from wounds.

Arterial spray - refers to the spurt of blood released when a major artery is severed. The blood is propelled out of the breached blood vessel by the pumping of the heart and often forms an arcing pattern consisting of large, individual stains, with a new pattern created for each time the heart pumps.

Expirated spatter - is usually caused by blood from an internal injury mixing with air from the lungs being expelled through the nose, mouth or an injury to the airways or lungs. Expirated spatter tends to form a very fine mist due to the pressure exerted by the lungs moving air out of the body. Small air bubbles in the drops of blood are typically found in this type of spatter.

Bloodstain Pattern Analysis: Principles

www.forensicsciencesimplified.org www.forensicsciencesimplified.org

This is one of many stories/interviews re the amount of blood: Blood-soaked Idaho crime scene 'major challenge' for investigators, expert says
 
I'm not caught up yet however i am posting this with hopes that somebody will see something. Thanksgiving is tomorrow((Technically today)) kids are home. if this was a student i REALLY hope that that they cut their hands up and they are deeply noticed by family who then report it. even better if they do not ask questions to tip the POI off. gahhh.
 
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