ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 13

[layer]

I know that Moscow PD have stated that they believe that the other two stabbing murders—the one in 2021 in state of Oregon, and the one in 2020 in state of Washington—are not linked to this case…but how could they determine that so quickly?

They were less than conclusive in their wording. Specifically, they say:

there does not appear to be any evidence to support the cases are related

 

[TooMuchGun]

Well in that house, the closest room was vacant, right? So heading upstairs first seems plausible

the vacant room was floor 2 in the back left if ur looking at the front of the house

 

[whirrledpeas]

That's only if he knew where his target was in the house.

I do think the target (if there was only one target) was someone on the third floor. There would have been no reason to go up there otherwise.

The people on the 2nd floor could have been killed first if the perp was looking for his target. Alternatively, if they had awakened while the perp was performing his handiwork on the third floor, then it's possible that they were killed while he was making his getaway.

Do we know which victims were on the third floor?

Most likely K & M, though LE has not verified that. But we know their rooms were on the 3rd floor based on pictures and family interviews. We don’t know 100% if they were definitively in their personal rooms but I tend to lean that they were. MOO

 

[hopewell]

Looking for random public input about unusual behavior and situational context at both the bar area and the frat house suggests that LE remains pretty well in the dark as to motive and/or whether there was one intended target.

This is why I feel it was random, serial-esque, and that the 'target' was all four of them. That, and they all were asleep according to the coroner. That means no disagreement/escalation on site. No evident disagreement/escalation at either of the places that each pair were (I'm sure as many attendees as possible have been exhaustively interviewed to this effect). No persistent stalker. No fight. No rage. No waking up and stumbling onto a crime in progress. This was methodical and efficient, and as "gruesome" and "messy" and "sloppy" as the scene was, according to sources, it doesn't appear the killer left a lot of himself behind.

My opinion.

 

[AngTxGal]

This is so wrong by ethical standards. “Hey, all males, consent to a controversial polygraph and give us your DNA. We have no probable cause and no warrant. It’s completely voluntary, but if you don’t consent lots of people may think that you are suspicious.” Just no!

Anyone ever hear of police widely doing this?

I didn’t say I supported it. It isn’t illegal I don’t think, maybe could be considered coercion?

Has this been done before? Yes, and I believe about 5000 males came forward for just this sort of ‘dragnet’. It was back in the 1980’s in a double murder case of young girls, in the UK. I’m not sure if it has been done in the US at all or in recent times.

Today general citizens understand the potential for DNA info misuse much better, so we consider it protected by privacy. Evidently it was look at more like fingerprints back in the 1980’s?

JMO

 

[ktm44]

I do think the dog's whereabouts is key. If the dog was in the house, I would think the prep would let him/her outside so there would be no distraction/dog interaction. However, with the weather, the dog would have probably gone to the bathroom and then started barking at the door (to get in). This scenario would disrupt the prep's attack (possibly waking other people in the house as well). It would be too risky to have the dog in the house (barking at the attack) or outside the house (barking to get in).

Possibly, the dog was curled up in bed with the first roommate that came home

 

[LAhiker]

I agree, why not kill the dog?
If a person can conceive, plan, and then act to murder a person, and then four people, why would a dog matter?
Just maybe there is a reason this dog matters that we are unaware?
We’ve only been told he was located and brought to Animal Services, then retrieved by a responsible party. We need to know where and when IMO

JMO

It may be easier to kill a sleeping human than a wakeful dog. On the other hand, if the dog was present, awake, and inclined to bark, it seems likely that more people in the house would have woken up and confronted the killer than appears to have been the case.

Maybe the dog was asleep? Hid in a closet? Was let out by the killer (though as someone just said, it would probably bark to come back in again soon thereafter)? Is not the barking type?

I hope LE will clarify when the dog was found and who found it. If the dog was found before the police were called to the house, that's strange but if it was found at 3am or 4am on the morning of the 13th, that could be interpreted as "night" of the night before or "early morning" of the 13th. But in that case, who called LE re the dog?? It could've been a neighbor...

ETA: Some have suggested the killer might've come there earlier and let out the dog. That might explain why it was picked up that night.
But that theory runs into the objection that people in the house might not have gone to bed if the dog was out in the cold. (Unless one of the victims was trying to reach her ex to see if he had the dog.)
It seems more parsimonious to assume that the killer came to the house once and let the dog out then, in the wee hours of the morning.

JMO

 

[tokyorose]

Looking for random public input about unusual behavior and situational context at both the bar area and the frat house suggests that LE remains pretty well in the dark as to motive and/or whether there was one intended target.

This is why I feel it was random, serial-esque, and that the 'target' was all four of them. That, and they all were asleep according to the coroner. That means no disagreement/escalation on site. No evident disagreement/escalation at either of the places that each pair were (I'm sure as many attendees as possible have been exhaustively interviewed to this effect). No persistent stalker. No fight. No rage. No waking up and stumbling onto a crime in progress. This was methodical and efficient, and as "gruesome" and "messy" and "sloppy" as the scene was, according to sources, it doesn't appear the killer left a lot of himself behind.

My opinion.

MOO, and I agree that LE has conducted many interviews, but LE also has said and continues to say that this was a targeted attack, and I believe them.

 

[CSIDreamer]

But she wouldn't have stopped looking for her dog. She would've looked until she found him, called numerous people, woke everyone up. So she wouldn't have been sleeping at 3-4am when she was attacked.

How do you know this with certainty?

 

[Windsorite]

This is so wrong by ethical standards. “Hey, all males, consent to a controversial polygraph and give us your DNA. We have no probable cause and no warrant. It’s completely voluntary, but if you don’t consent lots of people may think that you are suspicious.” Just no!

Anyone ever hear of police widely doing this?

Though I'm sure this would be problematic in the US, I'm certain I've seen the use of a blanket DNA request of males that resided in a certain geographical area to solve a couple of cold cases in the UK.

 

[TooMuchGun]

That's only if he knew where his target was in the house.

I do think the target (if there was only one target) was someone on the third floor. There would have been no reason to go up there otherwise.

The people on the 2nd floor could have been killed first if the perp was looking for his target. Alternatively, if they had awakened while the perp was performing his handiwork on the third floor, then it's possible that they were killed while he was making his getaway.

Do we know which victims were on the third floor?

the reason I believe floor 2 was the target is because why kill E and X? Why risk going into a room with 2 people. Why not just go upstairs?

 

[hopewell]

MOO, and I agree that LE has conducted many interviews, but LE also has said and continues to say that this was a targeted attack, and I believe them.

A targeted attack doesn't mean one specific person was targeted or that the victims were even known to the killer 5 minutes before he decided to target them. It could just mean how they were killed - in bed and asleep. Maybe they were posed afterwards or there was bizarre scribbling in blood on the wall. That indicates targeting as well.

My opinion.

 

[SkyBoomer]

I didn’t say I supported it. It isn’t illegal I don’t think, maybe could be considered coercion?

Has this been done before? Yes, and I believe about 5000 males came forward for just this sort of ‘dragnet’. It was back in the 1980’s in a double murder case of young girls, in the UK. I’m not sure if it has been done in the US at all or in recent times.

Today general citizens understand the potential for DNA info misuse much better, so we consider it protected by privacy. Evidently it was look at more like fingerprints back in the 1980’s?

JMO

Didn’t they get DNA from dozens of men questioned in the Scarborough Rapist case, including from Paul Bernardo? I don’t think it was required, though. I imagine most were willing to submit to clear themselves.

 

[tokyorose]

the reason I believe floor 2 was the target is because why kill E and X? Why risk going into a room with 2 people. Why not just go upstairs?

Same could be said about going upstairs.. if you have murdered your targets on floor 2... why go upstairs and kill 2 more? more time in the house=more risk, that is factual. Makes me think even if 1 was target, that all 4 needed to be killed to protect the identity of the killer. So I would want to know who did the 4 know, that the other 2 did not. MOO but this was not a random serial killer who just didn't know that 2 more girls were downstairs. MOO

 

[AngTxGal]

Did I see a photo of a cinderblock or something like that sitting next to one of those windows? Or am I just imagining things?

The 2nd floor window on the hill side is at what would feel like ground level. In the picture there are investigators looking into that window, it is the normal height it would be if they were inside the house. In the pic there are about 4-5 investigators, three or so are women in navy clothing.
I can’t find it, sorry
JMO

 

[fred&edna]

This is so wrong by ethical standards. “Hey, all males, consent to a controversial polygraph and give us your DNA. We have no probable cause and no warrant. It’s completely voluntary, but if you don’t consent lots of people may think that you are suspicious.” Just no!

Anyone ever hear of police widely doing this?

Cape Cod Massachusetts murder of Christa Worthington... a dragnet attempt to obtain male DNA. It was quite controversial - involving the ACLU. Here is one link but there are many more.

Slow DNA Trail Leads to Suspect in Cape Cod Case (Published 2005)

Massachusetts state troopers arrest trash collector Christopher McCowen in rape and murder of fashion writer Christa Worthington in her Truro bungalow in Jan 2002; Cape Cod Dist Atty Michael O'Keefe says McCowen was first considered suspect in April 2002, but it took nearly two years to collect...

www.nytimes.com

ETA: Another link

DNA testing troubles some in Truro - The Boston Globe

 

[liona]

I should have stated better that none of this is what I think happen, was theorizing on the dog issue as it was getting brought up a LOT! lol: basically just stating a scenario the dog may have not been there during the murders etc. quiet a few posters couldn’t believe the dog wouldn’t have barked and gone crazy or how the dog wasn’t also a victim of this awful crime! Deep down I’m wanting to believe the dog was not traumatized by watching his beloved owner succumb to a stabbing!

I hear you about the dog. That’d be even more heartbreaking, as if this case even could be.
This case has made me think about my own vulnerability while asleep and that’s difficult because I have sleep issues. While I was kind of obsessing over it the last few nights I remember that I have 4 dogs, they have different barks and anywhere I can hear them I know what they are barking at. It could be a bear outside, my husband coming home from work, a neighbor, a stranger or they want to go out and potty. But they are different barks and as a pup parent you get to know them. I can’t speculate on the dog’s whereabouts but I know in my house my dogs would have woken me up by any means and alerted me to the situation. My dogs are also weary of everybody except myself and my husband, I assume because we live in the sticks though and it’s very quiet with few visitors. I am also interested in the poor dogs situation that night. I hope he was safe, comfortable and not a witness to this.

 

[DizzyB]

But she wouldn't have stopped looking for her dog. She would've looked until she found him, called numerous people, woke everyone up. So she wouldn't have been sleeping at 3-4am when she was attacked.

I agree. Unless the dog slept with whomever went to bed first. Could K have assumed that Murphy was asleep with the downstairs roommates? And she never looked for him? So the calls had nothing to do with the dog? And the dog had been let out of the house by the killer who was already inside, waiting for the last two to go to bed?

 

[accordn2me]

This is so wrong by ethical standards. “Hey, all males, consent to a controversial polygraph and give us your DNA. We have no probable cause and no warrant. It’s completely voluntary, but if you don’t consent lots of people may think that you are suspicious.” Just no!

Anyone ever hear of police widely doing this?

Yes. We had a serial killer (actually 2, known) operating in our area for 10+ years. Someone reported seeing a woman that appeared to be getting abducted by a man driving a white truck (iirc, a specific make.) DMV records were accessed and many males in the surrounding areas owning a white truck fitting that description were asked to voluntarily submit DNA.

 

[Dexter12]

I know that Moscow PD have stated that they believe that the other two stabbing murders—the one in 2021 in state of Oregon, and the one in 2020 in state of Washington—are not linked to this case…but how could they determine that so quickly?

It seems that all three attacks have some striking similarities in terms of specifics: home entered btwn. 3:00 and 4:00 am; knife attack in home residence; all on the 13th of a month, which was also a ‘weekend’ night; one in each state that all border one another geographically