ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 16

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IMO - somewhere right now the perp has a wife, girlfriend, mother, buddy or someone that is close to them that is suspicious. They are probably thinking they are crazy - BUT she knows he was out that night, has cuts/scratches, is acting different, etc. Need them to be courageous and report their suspicions to police.
I wish LE and even the family would use the media to plead more on an emotional level to the killer.

Sounds silly but "talk" to the killer or people who surround him. Beg them to call in any tip if their brother, son, husband, co-worker, classmate sends out any actions or behavior that may be a concern or suspicious. Plead with people to pay attention. I know they have in a way, but LE could be more aggressive in getting people to look around them. JMO, MOO... Easier said than done though.
 
Does anyone know what the temperature was the night of the murders? It seems unlikely to me that someone could be out in the freezing cold hiding in the woods for hours waiting for the victims to fall asleep. Any numbness in the limbs and the killer would not have been able to do something as physically intense as stabbing four different people. If it was cold, that seems to make the woods option less likely (though not impossible).

More likely, they must have been waiting in a car, or just got lucky in the timing they picked to enter the home.
 
Does anyone know what the temperature was the night of the murders? It seems unlikely to me that someone could be out in the freezing cold hiding in the woods for hours waiting for the victims to fall asleep. Any numbness in the limbs and the killer would not have been able to do something as physically intense as stabbing four different people. If it was cold, that seems to make the woods option less likely (though not impossible).

More likely, they must have been waiting in a car, or just got lucky in the timing they picked to enter the home.
Great points about getting numb. From what I gathered from that Information Room on YT posted yesterday it was quite cold, crunchy ice and some fog. Not sure the exact temp.

So if he lived close by could maybe see lights out from afar and walked over after waiting at home or I still think possible he drove but parked elsewhere but close and walked to the house.
 
In the Eliza Fletcher case in memphis this past September it was back within hours.

In this case, I think if they have the perp’s DNA, it’s in a mixed sample and that can take a very long time. An expert posted the process a few threads ago.
Swabbed DNA is rapid test now. That’s a whole
other process, as the Expert I missed must have explained. Darn.
The collection process in itawlf is a very elaborate and time consuming process. I was just reading the FBI manual on how to collect and submit every kind of evidence that it’s Lab examines including soil, paper, fabric. Broken glass. Footprints and tire marks. How to dry wet or bloody material samples before packaging… so much goes in to collection and submission.
They might still be collecting.
 
...
the only other type of crime it reminds me of is - beyond the classic serial killers people have already compared it to - is family annihilator....

(Quotation edited for focus.) You aren't the first to mention "family annihilator" killers. I don't doubt the crime scene looked similar in the Moscow murders.

But I thought the usual motivation for "family annihilation" was a feeling by the killer that the family in question can't survive or can't prosper without him. I wouldn't think anyone would feel that for a handful of college roommates who were expected to rent temporarily and then go on their way.
 
Swabbed DNA is rapid test now. That’s a whole
other process, as the Expert I missed must have explained. Darn.
The collection process in itawlf is a very elaborate and time consuming process. I was just reading the FBI manual on how to collect and submit every kind of evidence that it’s Lab examines including soil, paper, fabric. Broken glass. Footprints and tire marks. How to dry wet or bloody material samples before packaging… so much goes in to collection and submission.
They might still be collecting.
I think that's quite possible.
Every inch of that building and environs , an extraordinarily complex scene
It's a waiting game now..
 
one of the "reporters" that was at the last presser who claimed to be a member of PathFinder Newspaper actually wasn't working with them. Pathfinder released a comment Pathfinder Newspaper. what do you guys think about that?

that's really strange and off putting to me.

edit: forgot to finish my thought
I think that needs to be clarified publicly. I agree it is very strange.
 
BBM there are some door locks that are locked from the inside. So you turn the lock while inside the room, then step out in the hall, shutting the door behind you and the door is now locked. The perp could have done that, if the doors had that kind of lock, and then the surviving roommates would have been locked out.
That is correct, there is a latch to the door knob from inside and key lock fitted to the knob from outside the room. The latch could be turned from inside when the door is open, and once the door is closed, the lock will be on, too. The door could be unlocked only a key from outside. From inside the door could be unlocked by turning the latch to open position. Such locks are usually fitted to bedroom doors in rented houses.

I was thinking about a maintenance guy who visited the house to fix/repair. A plumber, electrician, locksmith could br a perpetrator. They usually drive vans, which could be used to change the clothes, too, after the crime. They also carry toolboxes, where a knife could be held without actually arising suspicious. They could also answer 24/7 calls, so they could justify their presence in the area. They might visit any of the neighbouring houses or flats to carry out a maintenance job and spotted the girls in the party house. The owners of that propeties could have pointed out or complained that there are a lot of parties going on at 1122 Kings Road hence he would become curious. That could have triggered his phantasies. That person could have been in the Corner Club on the night when the two girls were there, making ot trying to make a contact and fell rejected. Then, they decided to teach them a lesson. And as the perpetrator already knew where the girls lived, he went to the house.

What makes me thinking about such scenario is that the perpetrator is too confident with the neighbourhood but also with interior layout of the house as well as habits of its habitants. He is a person who works with people, I think, he is confident when interacting with people from different age groups and backgrounds and in different, sometimes challenging, circimstances. This is my impression, as I am also working with people. Besides, maintenance person could easily be invisible when they are around. Noone pays attention to the maintenance guy, but they are usually very observant and pay attention to details that others may ignore, precisely because the maintenance guts are mentally prepared to act to various challenges.
 
An individual who’s name is not being released by LE, is being formally charged for the September 12th “ Threat With Knife Incident “

1. This incident was occurred 2 months before the quadruple murder.
2. On September 16th the perp was identified by LE and charges are now set to go forward.
3. LE maintains this case is NOT related. Posting this to end speculation.
Hhhmm 2 months later? I know LE says not case related, but they'd have to at least compare DNA and look at the knife I'd hope - just to rule this perp out.
 
Swabbed DNA is rapid test now. That’s a whole
other process, as the Expert I missed must have explained. Darn.
The collection process in itawlf is a very elaborate and time consuming process. I was just reading the FBI manual on how to collect and submit every kind of evidence that it’s Lab examines including soil, paper, fabric. Broken glass. Footprints and tire marks. How to dry wet or bloody material samples before packaging… so much goes in to collection and submission.
They might still be collecting.
Just wondering how they figure out what blood to sample (most likely to yield crime solving evidence) and what must be left without analysis.
 
I wonder how the dog would act if the killer was in his presence again. Would it recognize that scent?
People keep thinking that there is a strong chance that the killer will be at the vigil. What if they brought the dog to the vigil and it acted weirdly around a person?
It's a super long shot that will never happen, but it crossed my mind just now.
 
(Quotation edited for focus.) You aren't the first to mention "family annihilator" killers. I don't doubt the crime scene looked similar in the Moscow murders.

But I thought the usual motivation for "family annihilation" was a feeling by the killer that the family in question can't survive or can't prosper without him. I wouldn't think anyone would feel that for a handful of college roommates who were expected to rent temporarily and then go on their way.
Yeah it's often a matter of control with family annihilators. "If I can't have you, nobody else will." Or a matter of image that they feel must be maintained--and death in their twisted way of thinking is preferable to fracture.

Statistically, they are highly likely to happen on August weekends before a custody change or school starts, which I think is a pretty good indication of the sorts of motives that play into such crimes. I agree that's probably not comparable to what happened here. MOO
 
Does anyone know what the temperature was the night of the murders? It seems unlikely to me that someone could be out in the freezing cold hiding in the woods for hours waiting for the victims to fall asleep. Any numbness in the limbs and the killer would not have been able to do something as physically intense as stabbing four different people. If it was cold, that seems to make the woods option less likely (though not impossible).

More likely, they must have been waiting in a car, or just got lucky in the timing they picked to enter the home.
If he's local, this would not be cold enough to detract him.

12:33 AM28 °F26 °F92 %N3 mph0 mph27.55 in0.0 inCloudy
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1:53 AM29 °F26 °F89 %CALM0 mph0 mph27.57 in0.0 inCloudy
2:53 AM28 °F25 °F88 %WSW6 mph0 mph27.57 in0.0 inCloudy
3:17 AM28 °F25 °F88 %S3 mph0 mph27.57 in0.0 inCloudy
3:53 AM28 °F25 °F88 %SW5 mph0 mph27.57 in0.0 inCloudy
4:53 AM28 °F25 °F88 %CALM0 mph0 mph27.57 in0.0 inCloudy
5:53 AM29 °F25 °F85 %CALM0 mph0 mph27.57 in0.0 inCloudy
6:53 AM29 °F25 °F85 %CALM0 mph0 mph27.59 in0.0 inCloudy
7:25 AM29 °F25 °F85 %ESE3 mph0 mph27.59 in0.0 inCloudy
 
Definitely makes you wonder if the two girls- K and M heard/saw something and put the stools there for extra security? I say this because that’s something I would definitely do!
No, actually there are numerous close up photos of the stools as they were arranged upright in the kitchen and then days later after forensics came, at some point last week they used them to block the sliding door. Maybe the photos are in Media?
 
Something I wondered though was their wording around if releasing a profile would create more fear in the community. If the profile considered a Greek Frat member, I am guessing that would invoke a lot of fear. I am sure everyone is tired of me harping on about this, but I really think the police have been more tight lipped on X and Es previous movements around the frat party for a reason..MOO of course!
If that were the profile, I don’t that would invoke community fear. It would, I think, generate fear amongst the frats…and anger. And circling the wagons. UI would be afraid & angry, too. CYA & plausible deniability would kick in, IMO

But I personally remain unconvinced this is related to the Greek system. Moo
 
Here’s what bothers me the most about this case: Where was the dog during the murders if no roommates or neighbors heard any barking?

But before I get to that, I want to explain why this case is so stuck in my mind. When I was their age I lived in a campus house with five girls. We had six rooms but one was always empty. I am curious how their living arrangement was set up, if they paid for their housing with student loans it’s possible the house is owned by the University. Otherwise, they probably rent it from a local landlord. My house was owned by the University, our roommates were assigned, and was basically a huge piece of crap with bad street lighting etc. Especially because the house is so close to the frat house, it wouldn’t surprise me if it was university-owned.

I lived on the second floor of a split-level college house. My floor had a sliding door entry that faced the road and was easy to see into. We kept it unlocked most of the time because that’s how friends of those of us who shared that floor would come and go. Though we did generally lock it at night, I’m sure there were nights someone forgot. Not smart, I know. But I grew up in a rural area and remember being confused about having to lock doors when I moved to a city. It’s not engrained in everyone’s head as you may assume. Especially out there.

You had to learn to sleep through everything in that house. My roommate directly above me always had people over and her rabbit thumping around. It was not unusual to come home drunk, lay down, realize there were strange voices coming from above me, fall asleep. And because we had three entries to our various living areas it was easy not to see or talk to your other roommates that often. I definitely couldn’t tell you how many random people came and went that I didn’t realize were ever even there. I even woke up to someone trying to get into my room thinking it was a bathroom more than once.

This is part of the reason that being that age is such a high risk factor for being victimized. It’s a very vulnerable time and you don’t always (or even normally) make the most rational choices— not locking doors, posting your entire night on snap chat with location on, drinking too much without a secure way home, etc. All things that make a good target for a perp. I still sometimes look back and wonder how I survived those years. But that’s the thing, not everyone does survive it, and it’s a tragic reminder how fragile youth is.

So back to the dog. Either the dog was barking and no roommates or neighbors heard him or the dog really didn’t bark. I can’t puzzle out how the dog wouldn’t have barked unless it was in a crate or in a room completely separate from the rest of the house, maybe in the extra room. If it were in another room then maybe it was desensitized enough to noise of people coming and going in the house. I don’t think he would have been outside at that time either, it was cold. Even less likely if we consider LE has suggested they were sleeping already.

When I think about my roommate who had a dog, the crate was always in her room. Especially because strangers do come and go in college houses. I really don’t think she would have gone to sleep without her dog in her room. I just can’t see that. This dog would be a source of comfort for her. I shared a dog my Senior year of college with a boyfriend and I loved that dog, he always slept in the bed or in his crate.
I think we can logically rule out the dog being loose in the room (or anywhere in the house for that matter) Otherwise the dog likely would have barked, possibly attacked the perp, or at the very least stained all of his fur with blood. Looking at recent pictures, it’s very white and it doesn’t appear to have been stained. I also think if the dog were loose this perp wouldn’t have a hard time killing anything in their way (unless the crime was committed related to the ownership of the dog, which has crossed my mind).

So let’s assume the dog was in her room in a crate. I can’t figure out how the dog wouldn’t bark upon a stranger coming into the room. The perp could have been known to the dog, but wouldn’t a dog bark even if they know, or even trust, the person attacking it’s owner? Or, they could have fed the dog to distract him. I just can’t see how someone could get in without waking the girls, get lucky that the dog doesn’t bark, and then give it some food which might make the dog whine and make noises that wake the girls anyway. But let’s just assume the distraction works and the perp is gone before the dog realizes what happens, they can still smell death almost immediately. I really can’t imagine that her dog wouldn’t have barked through the night/morning after realizing something was off.

So even though I strongly believe that she would have kept her dog in her room, I can’t think of a reasonable scenario in which the dog was in the room at the time of the murders and also did not bark. Which means I have to consider the possibility that the dog really was in another room and didn’t bark, in which case I lean towards the extra room being used as sort of a “dog room” for while she is out of the house. My poor roommate’s dog had to be in her room all day when she was at class. It’s common courtesy in a shared house to keep your pet contained while not around.

So…. Where was the freaking dog?

I’ve outlined the possibilities of if the dog really didn’t bark, in that case he was likely in the spare bedroom.

The the alternative is that the dog was actually barking and the roommates and neighbors just didn’t hear him. A dog in distress can be loud, but the layout of the house is strange and maybe dogs in the neighborhood bark a lot and people don’t think twice about it and don’t remember hearing the barking. In that case I feel he was in a crate in her room and was barking, and may even be part of what made the roommates think someone was unconscious.

Some other possibilities, could the dog have been drugged? Could the dog have been muzzled? Could the dog have been locked somewhere by the perp? This would certainly add to the degree of premeditation involved in the crimes.

I wrote this whole novel and realized I don’t even know the name of the dog so brb while I Google it. You get a cookie if you read this far. Please let me know what you think about where the dog was. Was he in a crate? Was he loose? Which room was he in? Did he bark? Did he not bark? I feel like there is something there that we can logically deduce but I just can’t put my finger on it.
This is a really important point. I think initially when the roommates came home for the night at 0156, the dog wasn’t there, hence the phone calls. IMO, the dog was brought back to the home in the middle of the night and put in its cage. This is all hypothetical. There is a reason people didn’t hear the dog bark. Because the animal was not present when the murders occurred? Again, hypothetical.
 
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