ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 19

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wtrbrdm

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off topic...but I have to,

no curtains, no shutters, nothing that would give you privacy, especially in the evening with the lights on,

I CAN'T IMAGINE

Maybe "off topic" but very true. In my line of work...we call this a soft target. I have zero worries about anyone coming in my house...plenty of security and firearms...BUT....I still have curtains and blinds that I use. If anything even remotely positive comes out of these threads, I hope that some people take heed and adjust some thing in their own lives. Situational awareness is crucial in life. Not being in the red 24/7 or paranoid...but simply being aware. This world is amazing...beautiful....yet cruel as hell at times.
 

10ofRods

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Perhaps the medical examiner wanted to have all four of the autopsies complete before advising the Coroner of the results? And then the Coroner needed to advise the families and give them a day to digest the info, prior to releasing the info to the public?

I have just finished a book called Unnatural Causes by top UK forensic pathologist, Richard Shepherd, who has completed thousands of autopsies. An autopsy is very involved (even if the cause and manner of death seem apparent) as they must investigate whether or not any prior conditions affected the deaths, and they must detail the effect on the body of every single wound.

Too bad they aren't always done that way (especially in the 20th century). I'd like to think things are better now, but where I live, we have a dramatic lack of resources (medical personnel) and a lot of newbies doing things.
 

WildWest

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Wow, I think that possibility is worth pursuing-

Somebody for whom a Ka Bar knife is not just a camping tool, or even a little used conversation piece. Rather the person views the knife as a personal totem and perhaps say, some sort of phallic symbol all rolled into one.

Like Hodne, I imagine that such a person would want to display the "totem"- after all, the whole purpose of the totem is to inform others about various things.

Maybe.....

- Ask area shooting range employees if somebody has ever shown up not only to shoot, but also with a Ka Bar knife obviously "on display". Bonus points if the person was also firing power type (in his mind) weapons such as .45, .357 magnums, .44.

- Ask local hardware store owners if they ever say somebody openly carrying a Ka bar knife that, in even vague and fuzzy ways, did not seem to match the rest of their appearance. Carrier did not seem to be a rancher, wilderness hiker, hunter etc.

- Ask at the knife / axe throwing venue if anybody has shown up there with a Ka Bar on display. Maybe was unsheathing it, liked starting conversations about it, attempting to throw it instead of the knives designed for that purpose etc.

-
Would you know how they think it's a KA bar knife?
 

BlueTunes

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Not trying to be facetious or flip in any way, but I seriously wish the "Criminal Minds" team was real and on this case. (Not because in tee vee land things are solved in an hour. ) But just to get it solved so as to possibly even slightly ease the agony of the families. And end the terror in the community. I pray that the BAU in the real FBI is making progress.

JMO Agree. The wheels of justice may turn slow but they do turn nonetheless. I have a feeling LE are going to identify and arrest the suspect VERY soon.
 

10ofRods

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My understanding is this was the work of a mass murderer & will remain such unless/until previous or subsequent murders are connected.

My inclination may different than others, but the definition of a serial killer has not been met, IMHO.

Very much agree. And while it's a technical point, I think we should call it a mass murder.

Further, serial mass murdering is exceedingly, vanishingly rare.

Would you know how they think it's a KA bar knife?

My understanding/speculation is that local store owners were asked about the sale of this particular knife and then asked not to speak further. For sure, a bunch of local (potential) witnesses were asked not speak further - per Brian Entin/Twitter. Today, I believe.
 

slanda

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I recommend to check the history of crime. There is a lot of knife murders committed by people who were totally unprepared, not particularly strong and commited them on impulse.



Breastbone is an inch wide, more or less, so that leaves a lot of space on the chest to stab without trying to pierce the sternum. But even if the perp was attempting to stab them through the breastbone, it is less than half of inch thick and, because the victims were fairly young, their breastbones weren't fully ossified yet. Therefore stabbing them in their chests might have required far less strength than you imagine.



The victims were asleep when they were attacked and at least two of them were under an influence of the alcohol. You can easily kill someone with just one stab in the chest area - heart, thoracic aorta, abdominal aorta, take your pick. It's even easier to incapacitate someone with one stab - windpipe, lung, one of the smaller arteries and the victim is practically unable to fight, or to scream. Yes, according to the coroner the victims had defensive wounds, but if does not mean they were actively fighting. It was enoough to wave their arms incoherently to acquire some defensive wounds.
The reason I stated what I said in my post was because the coroner stated that the “all victims suffered upper chest stab wounds with one fatal blow.”

Also, it may be easier to incapacitate one sleeping person, but four would be difficult and rife with risk and uncertainties.

It takes a lot of strength and effort to kill in that way, especially doing it 4 different times.

I agree that a sleeping person is an easier victim than an awake person but the negative variables begin adding up after each victim.

This, IMO, takes skill in preparation and planning.

It’s also still very personal.

Of course there are *many* and most crimes involving a knife it’s by someone totally unprepared and usually used as a weapon of opportunity taken from the kitchen block, not brought to the scene, which again, says something about the murderer— It says, this was not one of those cases that the motive was robbery and the perp grabbed an object out of desperation.

Most murders involving a knife aren’t planned the way in which this was planned as evidenced by the fact there is no POI— which also goes to the level of organization and sophistication of this crime and the planning that was required to evade detection three weeks out, so far.

I agree that the defensive wounds may or may not have been an indication of active fighting, but more reflexive, but even so, the killer still probably had to maybe straddle them, or overpower them while silencing them in some way to accomplish multiple stab wounds in a very occupied house as to not alarm the others.
 

sleepingmonkey

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layer

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Would you know how they think it's a KA bar knife?
They haven't said they think it's a KA_BAR, the media reported that LE had visited a local store asking about any recent sales of KA-BAR knives (later reported as "or that style of knife").

There are ways that they could know it's a KA-BAR, if the perp dropped the sheath, for example. I saw an episode of Forensic Files one time in which the killer had set down the knife on the bed at one point during the crime, it left a perfect impression in blood on the sheets.

<modsnip: Referenced info was removed>
 
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branmuffin

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Blood experts? Spatter, pooling, shoe prints, etc? Maybe not relevant or unsure if they go separate from other forensics teams.

Whoever it is, I think they are being escorted by a detective. I wonder if they are the owners of the building who needed access to the building.
It Is wrong To give opinions or to speculate about someone Who more than likely had nothing to do with this, The Law student is one example, But Who Takes This Website Or Reddit or Twitter seriously when it comes to sleuthing these murders, We know very little and it’s just a platform to discuss

It is a platform to discuss aspects of the case but that doesn't mean we have carte blanche to do character assassinations on people who are within the periphery of the victims. In today's climate you can destroy lives by accusing them of things they are innocent of. There are people who act as vigilantes and exact their own form of justice based on some misguided information. And don't forget, Websleuths is owned by someone. In the most litigious country in world, that owner could be named in a lawsuit for allowing unbridled accusations against someone. It's called libel.
 

balharbour

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Entirely my opinion but I suspect a knife similar to this being used..
1. The coroner said it was hard to refer to the wounds as puncture wounds because of how large the knife was
2. It was indicated the killer would be proud of the knife and may have paid money for it
3. Stabbing 4 people multiple times without your hand slipping down on the blade with the volume of blood, whether or not you have gloves on would be nearly impossible - In my opinion, the knife had to have a mechanism that kept it in place, e.g. a handle like most martial arts knives will have.
4. If the killer was skilled with the knife, a martial arts type knife might indicate they had experience in combat sports, thus they were able to kill all 4.
I agree, the perp is proficient with this type of knife but even someone proficient with its use, his DNA has to be at the crime scene. Granted, unless he is in the system, there will obviously be no match....but when they find this psycho, it will God willing.
 

Puzzles8

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Along another line, I wonder how often the lock codes to the house and bedrooms were changed. Every six months, year, every time a new roommate moved in or out? Rarely?

My daughter lived in a sorority house in college. I asked her how often the lock codes were changed. She said they were supposed to change the outside lock codes every month and the bedroom door lock codes every six months or when some moved out. I then asked her how often they actually got changed. She casually said, it don't think they've been changed in the year I've lived here. Kind of alarming.

JMO
 
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hopewell

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whirrledpeas

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Apparently, the autopsies were performed by the Spokane County medical examiner.

Part of the responsibilities of the Spokane County medical examiner are to .... "Perform investigations at the scene of death".

It seems possible/probable that the medical examiner attended the scene before the victims were removed. According to google, Spokane County is less than a 2 hour drive from Latah County where the murders occurred.


"The Spokane County Medical Examiner’s Office completed the autopsies ...."
Four UI students stabbed to death, Latah County coroner rules

Spokane County Medical Examiner
The Spokane ME did not visit the scene; the Latah county coroner (Cathy Mabbut) came onsite at 5pm on the 13th, established preliminary cause and manner of death. I linked info about this on the latter pages of thread #15 I believe. Head scratcher IMO.
 

slanda

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So you're saying that all mass killings (which this is) turn into serial killings? I disagree and think there are counter-examples. U.S. defines mass killing as four or more:


People do workplace violence all the time without ever targeting anyone else. People kill houses containing their own families without ever killing anyone else (they do not become serial killers).

You can question LE if you wish, but I don't think they're waffling, I think they know something we don't.

So, I disagree that it's "obvious" that this is a serial killer. It's more than likely someone who knew the house and its characteristics or knew one or more individuals inside the house.
There is a bit of conflation here. Mass Killings have a different motivation than Family Annihilators. The only thing in common is that they killed several people at once but, it’s for different purposes. They could not be categorized as the same thing. The same example could be used for a serial murderer— they’re also not the same as a mass murderer.

For example: Mass murderers usually have a political/government/workplace/ideological motivation for killing and usually end their spree by killing themselves, getting killed by the police, or surrendering. The point is: it’s usually a very public offense and is over in a matter of minutes.

Serial murders (serial killers) also kill a mass amount (or want to) number of people but they operate in the shadows and want to continue their fantasy driven murders without being caught for as long as possible. They do not operate out in the open and choose their targets for more personal reasons vs ideological, for example.

Yes. Both types of killers technically kill a “mass” number of people, but what differentiates them is the way they do it and why.

It’s important to categorize these killers and their subtypes because that’s what leads to confusion.

Not all mass murderers are serial killers and serial killers are definitely not mass murderers.

Then, the subtypes of serial killers themselves are different and different motivations. The FBI changed its definition of serial killers and calls their crimes serial murders. Serial murderers can kill more than one person at a location but not be considered a mass murderer.

It really all comes down to what the perpetrator’s motives are to get the distinction of mass murderer or a serial murderer.

 

syrian rose

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No-one from Xana's family attended the vigil a few days ago......interesting
 

Sister Golden Hair

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FWIW, I don’t think the dorms are anywhere near the quadruple murder off-campus location, at least as I recall. Moo.
I think the issue was that another poster thought they could take search dogs into the dorms to look for evidence during the break, and the discussion followed because that would not be allowed.
 
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