ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #12

[Cardinal47]

I would think so. So, either LE had strong reason to believe that something other than abduction had occurred (which has my vote) or they were wrong about abduction being the least likely scenario. Although, it seems that they weren't wrong as the FBI certainly didn't come and suddenly ask for public tips and and issue alerts. What's your guess?

I talked about this FBI Rapid Deployment team up thread.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/podcasts/thisweek/child-abduction-rapid-deployment-team.mp3/view

DeOrr didn't seem to fit any of the criteria for this agency or an Amber Alert in the very beginning. I really think when the call came in that he was missing they thought they would find him quickly.

The rest is history.

MOO

 

[Cardinal47]

This all just makes me so sad. Where is he? Why does there never seem to be any urgency? If LE has a theory on what happened, they must have no idea where to look for him? If they don't think he's in the forest or the water, are they looking anywhere else?

My own opinion is that they might think they know what happened but proving it is another step in the process. They have tons of information along with variables. Those little 1%'s we talk about.

 

[Mickshawn]

IMO, what I think the sketch could end up looking like if different descriptions were given for the Leadore staring man vs Swan Valley staring man.

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I'm still mystified why the Leadore staring man wasn't mentioned right away in the beginning......It seems important!!

 

[kammiemc]

This all just makes me so sad. Where is he? Why does there never seem to be any urgency? If LE has a theory on what happened, they must have no idea where to look for him? If they don't think he's in the forest or the water, are they looking anywhere else?

Maybe that is what the FBI is doing. If they have evidence that points them in the direction of one or more persons' involvement, sheesh, where would they start? At the homes, places familiar to those people I guess.

But if they thought something happened to the toddler at the campsite, they might be looking within a certain amount of driving distance from the site--but that is sooooooooooo vast. (In the case of Ember Graham, who was assumed to be disposed of by her father within a certain timeframe where they could guess more or less how many miles away he could get, they never found her. And the dad, the only one who knew where he left her, was killed by police in a shoot out.)

He may never be found

And even if the FBI/LE has strong indications of foul play, they may never have enough evidence without finding him to bring charges against anyone. And if that's the case, I don't know if they would ever make their theory public. It seems, in the cases I've followed, that sometimes they don't. And then bam, someone's arrested and it all comes out.

I guess any search warrants in this case have been sealed or have at least not been brought to public attention by media. I have no clue how to find out.

 

[kammiemc]

I'm still mystified why the Leadore staring man wasn't mentioned right away in the beginning......It seems important!!

I am totally speculating, but I think the PI was on a specific mission to identify any possible abductor lead (and actually, any possible scenario that would take attention off his clients--god knows they have had fingers pointed at them, so certainly not blaming him for that agenda). I can imagine him sitting down with the parents and asking them to rack their brains for ANYthing, ANYone at all that they noticed that day. He might have asked, was there anyone at the fries place? And so on.

And maybe JM did recall at that point that there was indeed a man at the fries place who was looking at her toddler. Or maybe she just really wanted there to be because it would mean he might possibly, by some miracle, be alive. (And it might also distract the weird people on SM who have been giving the family havoc.)

And as far as the Rubicon sighting in the fries parking lot goes, I think it is totally unbelievable that after learning of the staring man at the fries place that the PI didn't ask the parents for a vehicle description. I highly doubt that it took him learning of the vehicle description of the Swan Valley man to think to ask for the first time about what vehicles DK saw in the fries parking lot. And I think it is equally unbelievable that DK answered using the exact same specific descriptive language as the woman in Swan Valley. If DK could recall the vehicle so precisely and believed that his son was kidnapped, and this staring man was the only lead, I really think he might have mentioned the car in the parking lot to the PI before.
Call me crazy.

 

[Rayemonde]

Is anyone following the William Tyrrell case in Australia? It reminds me of this case because William disappeared when his family took their eyes off him for just a few minutes, and it was initially thought that he'd wandered into the bush so big searches were performed but no trace of him was found. It was considered extremely unlikely that he had been abducted because he was in a quiet residential area with a dead-end road, and no one had seen any strange cars around or anything like that, and no one knew be would be there on that day. So everyone started blaming the family, as they do in these sorts of cases.

But then LE announced that they had found that there was a paedophile ring operating in the area, and they have charged a couple of local paedophiles for unrelated crimes.

A whole *year* after William had disappeared, LE suddenly announced that William's mother had seen two suspicious vehicles before William went missing and asked the public to come forward if they had seen them. She had told them this within a day or two of him going missing, but they said they had been keeping this information from the public for a whole YEAR for "strategic reasons"! I was very skeptical because I could not imagine why they would keep that very important fact secret for a friggin *year*, but shortly after they asked the public's help to identify the cars, LE seized a vehicle matching the description of one of the cars, and the rumour is that it's the car of a known paedophile and POI in the Tyrell case.

So *hopefully* the police are close to a resolution on the WT case!

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/2015/09/26/vehicle-seized-over-tyrrell-connection.html

 

[Rayemonde]

raying:

Fingers crossed for little William! And yes, the car was seized on the 16th but the press have only just reported on it today for some reason (more mysterious "strategic reasons"??)

9NEWS understands the car was taken by police from the home of convicted pedophile Tony Jones on September 16.

Jones, 59, was sentenced to three years jail yesterday after pleading guilty to the indecent assault of a child. The child involved was not William.

Jones was a member of a grandparents social group and is a former neighbour of Bill Spedding, another person of interest in the case.

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...m-tyrrell-investigation/ar-AAeNDym?li=AAavLaF

 

[JadeSLeuth]

IMO, what I think the sketch could end up looking like if different descriptions were given for the Leadore staring man vs Swan Valley staring man.

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Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Creep in a Jeep by kammiemc.

Ahhh its okay to have a little humor once in a while, isn't it? It's felt like an endless, frustrating couple of months. My mind becomes exhausted with wanting resolution. Thank you kammiemc!

 

[perfectingpink]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the Creep in a Jeep by kammiemc.

Ahhh its okay to have a little humor once in a while, isn't it? It's felt like an endless, frustrating couple of months. My mind becomes exhausted with wanting resolution. Thank you kammiemc!

:laughing:

 

[pepelepolecat]

IMO, what I think the sketch could end up looking like if different descriptions were given for the Leadore staring man vs Swan Valley staring man.

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I think I've seen that guy somewhere!

 

[CanManEh]

I understand your frustration in face me and my mom watched prisoners today and she says to me it scares her because she knows that turtouring the pedo in that movie is something she knows i would do and more anyway point is i get it like i would be driving to the campground everynight making sure i had a fire going every dam night then i would walk and look for him all day yelling his name id be asking everyone .id be going to bars at 2am when i know people are drunk so they will talki i just wouldnt give up..

 

[neesaki]

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/non-family-abductions

This is interesting. If there was any reason to think that Deorr was abducted, the FBI should have been brought in *immediately*.

And even after they were finally brought in, the FBI have yet to listed him as missing.

 

[neesaki]

This all just makes me so sad. Where is he? Why does there never seem to be any urgency? If LE has a theory on what happened, they must have no idea where to look for him? If they don't think he's in the forest or the water, are they looking anywhere else?

Exactly, there appears to be no urgency. Perhaps they believe he's deceased, but not on that mountain? I truly have no idea. My imagination runs wild.

 

[wondering25]

Is anyone following the William Tyrrell case in Australia? It reminds me of this case because William disappeared when his family took their eyes off him for just a few minutes, and it was initially thought that he'd wandered into the bush so big searches were performed but no trace of him was found. It was considered extremely unlikely that he had been abducted because he was in a quiet residential area with a dead-end road, and no one had seen any strange cars around or anything like that, and no one knew be would be there on that day. So everyone started blaming the family, as they do in these sorts of cases.

But then LE announced that they had found that there was a paedophile ring operating in the area, and they have charged a couple of local paedophiles for unrelated crimes.

A whole *year* after William had disappeared, LE suddenly announced that William's mother had seen two suspicious vehicles before William went missing and asked the public to come forward if they had seen them. She had told them this within a day or two of him going missing, but they said they had been keeping this information from the public for a whole YEAR for "strategic reasons"! I was very skeptical because I could not imagine why they would keep that very important fact secret for a friggin *year*, but shortly after they asked the public's help to identify the cars, LE seized a vehicle matching the description of one of the cars, and the rumour is that it's the car of a known paedophile and POI in the Tyrell case.

So *hopefully* the police are close to a resolution on the WT case!

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/2015/09/26/vehicle-seized-over-tyrrell-connection.html

So, instead of alerting the public QUICKLY and possibly finding this car and POSSIBLY finding this boy before the pedophiles killed him, they waited a YEAR to release the info for "strategic reasons"? This makes sense????????? Their strategy failed. MOO

Anything i write is just my opinion.

 

[wondering25]

At one point I was reading up on how it works with FBI is sent in to work with local LE. I am sure it varies in each case, but it sounded like the general idea is that they share the investigation. I guess the more help, the beter. But, wow, that's a lot of cooks in the kitchen with all those agencies.

ETA: I will add though, on The Wire, it seems LE is always mad at the FBI for not keeping them in the loop.

The FBI, in Deorr's case, was brought in several weeks later. So, no official shaing during that critical time..IMO. I am sure no one will agree with me but there is a LOT of ego involved in these cases between one department and another. Look at the apparent lack of communication between Bowerman and the PI. The PI said the sheriff wouldnt even take his calls. WHY? The sheriff might WANT everyone to call into their sheriff''s tip line because it is convenient for their office or they wont "miss a tip" but the reality is that people dont like to call the cops and might feel more comfortable talking to a tip line run by a PI. Any info can be potentially important info. It sure would be a stain on the official LE if the PI broke the case. IMO EGO prevented the FBI from being called in IMMEDIATELY.

These sheriffs are elected.. they like to keep the successes local.. MOO. Who knows if they think it makes them look weak by calling in the big guns? Remember, when Bowerman was asked about the "leering man" he said something to the effect that yeah, he had heard about it but he couldn't track down everyone who stared at a baby. Well, that was mighty cavalier of him.. and he doesnt have to track down EVERY staring man.. just one that MIGHT fit this general description.

Once the FBI is involved, it could be somewhat akin to the Sheriff and the PI..The FBI thinks THEY are the smarter, more official, more resourceful entity and the sheriff is the inexperienced , less qualified arm of LE.

The sheriff might be an expert in searching for lost people in the woods or water.. but possible foul play or abduction.. maybe not so much.. JMO

Anything I write is just my opinion.

 

[Rayemonde]

So, instead of alerting the public QUICKLY and possibly finding this car and POSSIBLY finding this boy before the pedophiles killed him, they waited a YEAR to release the info for "strategic reasons"? This makes sense????????? Their strategy failed. MOO

Anything i write is just my opinion.

Yes, but my point is that just because LE said they don't think there was an abduction, and haven't released a description of a suspicious car or suspicious man, that doesn't necessarily mean they don't think they exist. They might be keeping a lot of stuff back like the LE who are investigating WT's disappearance have.

 

[giagreen]

It could go either way.
If you alert the publuc then you alert the perp and child could end up dead.
If you don't alert the public the perp doesnt know so you can get closer. Flip side is the public can't help and child could end up dead.

 

[kammiemc]

Yes, but my point is that just because LE said they don't think there was an abduction, and haven't released a description of a suspicious car or suspicious man, that doesn't necessarily mean they don't think they exist. They might be keeping a lot of stuff back like the LE who are investigating WT's disappearance have.

I got the point of your post. It's true. We have no idea if LE and/or the FBI have tracked down the leads of either of the reported staring men--and whether they determined that those people were completely innocent and uninvolved (in which case they certainly wouldn't publicly identify either) or if they are suspicious of either's involvement and just not saying so. I tend to think the former is more likely, but anything is possible!

 

[kammiemc]

The FBI, in Deorr's case, was brought in several weeks later. So, no official shaing during that critical time..IMO. I am sure no one will agree with me but there is a LOT of ego involved in these cases between one department and another. Look at the apparent lack of communication between Bowerman and the PI. The PI said the sheriff wouldnt even take his calls. WHY? The sheriff might WANT everyone to call into their sheriff''s tip line because it is convenient for their office or they wont "miss a tip" but the reality is that people dont like to call the cops and might feel more comfortable talking to a tip line run by a PI. Any info can be potentially important info. It sure would be a stain on the official LE if the PI broke the case. IMO EGO prevented the FBI from being called in IMMEDIATELY.

These sheriffs are elected.. they like to keep the successes local.. MOO. Who knows if they think it makes them look weak by calling in the big guns? Remember, when Bowerman was asked about the "leering man" he said something to the effect that yeah, he had heard about it but he couldn't track down everyone who stared at a baby. Well, that was mighty cavalier of him.. and he doesnt have to track down EVERY staring man.. just one that MIGHT fit this general description.

Once the FBI is involved, it could be somewhat akin to the Sheriff and the PI..The FBI thinks THEY are the smarter, more official, more resourceful entity and the sheriff is the inexperienced , less qualified arm of LE.

The sheriff might be an expert in searching for lost people in the woods or water.. but possible foul play or abduction.. maybe not so much.. JMO

Anything I write is just my opinion.

I am trying to reconcile that the sheriff is cavalier for blowing off the idea that there was a man staring at little DeOrr at the fries place when even you, yourself, has asserted that the toddler never even made it back from the fries place. If your theory is correct and the sheriff also believed it to be true, why would his response to investigating a staring man (an obvious red herring if your theory is correct) be cavalier?
Maybe I am not calculating correctly.



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[wondering25]

I am trying to reconcile that the sheriff is cavalier for blowing off the idea that there was a man staring at little DeOrr at the fries place when even you, yourself, has asserted that the toddler never even made it back from the fries place. If your theory is correct and the sheriff also believed it to be true, why would his response to investigating a staring man (an obvious red herring if your theory is correct) be cavalier?
Maybe I am not calculating correctly.





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The sheriff hasnt consulted me on my theory! He has an obligation to follow up on all leads, imo Even the ones he thinks are red herrings.. JMO
. There certainly are enough agencies involved to assist.

Anything i write is just my opinion.