ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

[SeriouslySearching]

Every person sheds skin cells...every second of the day. So, yes, there was scent..but you have to understand that dogs are trained in different functions and the skin cells deteriorate like any other biological matter.

Think of the skin cells coming off as tiny bubbles (like you blow). If the wind is very calm they settle at your feet, if there is wind, they may drift off a long ways and get scattered. Now let's say your bubbles are pink. Now family members that share the same DNA have different shades of pink as their bubbles. Thousands of bubbles blowing around.

Other people come walking around, many more thousands of blue, green, purple, etc bubbles get added into the mix. So yes, there was scent, but they conditions were probably not optimal for a K9 to find the few pink bubbles among the thousands of other colored bubbles.


The search dogs are only as good as the people handling them. There is lots of room for error here.

The Sheriff there seemed to have a lot of confidence in their dogs and handlers so I would give him the benefit of the doubt. He is familiar with their track records.

Yes, I get the "bubbles" analogy. However, there were few people in the area where he went missing. Dogs are trained differently and one set depends on the skin cells and oils left on the ground while the other set tracks the airborne scent left wafting off a person. There shouldn't be much confusion of "bubbles" on a relatively fresh scent for either set of dogs.

Every person, even in the same family, has a unique scent. DeOrr's blanket would have provided more than enough of his scent for a qualified search dog to follow, imo.

 

[Floridian]

Jus to add about the drones... my husband jus showed me a video of a drone recording. And I may say it's very detailed. I could see rocks, even saw a rabbit... I don't know why they are using THEM, but I can vouch that. IT COULD DEF SPOT A HUMAN, ADULT CHILD, AND RABBITS.... that's if they have it flying everywhere. And determining how close to land it's going. It's a awesome thing for sure. Just want them to find this scared baby alive...

 

[Floridian]

First of all, when asked how long he was missing, she hesitates. Operator prompts, "An hour?" Mom responds, "Yeah."

Personally, at that point in time, I wouldn't expect the mother to have an exact perception of time, but that's just me.

Secondly, do we know if she was responding to the length of time since she and husband returned to campsite? Or time passed since she'd last seen him? If the latter -- parents gone 10-15 minutes, search about 20 minutes -- it doesn't add up to quite an hour, but in her addled state of mind at the moment, it's not a far-fetched guesstimate. And again, the operator threw it out there.

JMO

Link to mom's 911 call

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

I so agree

 

[flourish]

First of all, when asked how long he was missing, she hesitates. Operator prompts, "An hour?" Mom responds, "Yeah."

Personally, at that point in time, I wouldn't expect the mother to have an exact perception of time, but that's just me.

Secondly, do we know if she was responding to the length of time since she and husband returned to campsite? Or time passed since she'd last seen him? If the latter -- parents gone 10-15 minutes, search about 20 minutes -- it doesn't add up to quite an hour, but in her addled state of mind at the moment, it's not a far-fetched guesstimate. And again, the operator threw it out there.

JMO

Link to mom's 911 call

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

I wonder if, consciously or not, mom took that to indicate that they would take the situation more seriously if he was gone more than an hour...like if she thought the operator asking that was because it would impact reaction time. I can see myself sort of agreeing with someone during a stressful conversation like that. Idk.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

First of all, when asked how long he was missing, she hesitates. Operator prompts, "An hour?" Mom responds, "Yeah."

Personally, at that point in time, I wouldn't expect the mother to have an exact perception of time, but that's just me.

Secondly, do we know if she was responding to the length of time since she and husband returned to campsite? Or time passed since she'd last seen him? If the latter -- parents gone 10-15 minutes, search about 20 minutes -- it doesn't add up to quite an hour, but in her addled state of mind at the moment, it's not a far-fetched guesstimate. And again, the operator threw it out there.

JMO

Link to mom's 911 call

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...-released-my-2-year-old-son-we-cant-find-him/

I listened with headphones and I believe the mother does state an hour before she is asked to clarify it by the dispatcher. The mother seems unusually calm, but I suppose different people handle it in their own way. I would be a blubbering basket case by that time if I had been looking and found nothing. The frantic side would have taken over and the panic set in.

I would assume the answer to "How long has he been missing?" would go back to the approximate time he went missing and not the time she found he was missing. If I came back to camp and found my child gone...I would start the time when he was last seen running in my head like a beacon swirling around to indicate where he could have gotten off to in that amount of time.

 

[ILOKAL]

I completely agree. The odds would be astronomical that the lion attacks 1. Without being seen. 2. Without Deorr uttering a sound 3. Killing him instantly on the first shot (thus no struggle to knock off boots) 4. Carries Deorr off the ground all the to safety. 5. Leaves not a drop of blood behind.

It's just not adding up to me.

Then please read up on mountain lions. Read many, many sources. Learn their behaviors. The kill WOULD have been instant on the "first shot". The mountain lion would NOT have been seen. There would be NO struggle from a child so small and a kill so swift. All the things you believe could NOT have happened coincide with how the cougar hunts. They drag prey that is too large or too heavy to carry. Circumstances would also have a bearing on how the lion retreated.

 

[Cardinal47]

No, I didn't say mountain lions can or cannot eat camo boots. I said if buried on the forest floor, as mountains lions do with their prey, they would be virtually impossible to find. Victim's clothing HAS been found in the stomachs of attacking mountain lions.

I also want to mention that mountain lions are SO stealth and quick and silent in their selection and attack of children that they have been known to take a child who IS with adults. In an instant! Just - like - that! It is
said they always attack from behind.

I still believe if there were any Mountain Lions or bears in the area a good tracker would have found signs of them such as scat. Have we heard from those searching of any sighting of such?

 

[ILOKAL]

Like you said. The drones are programmed and given parameters. If the child was taken and eaten and buried beneath leaves by a mountain lion, I just don't think the programming would have fit the crime, so to speak. The drones would have been looking for someone they were never going to find.

 

[needtoknow]

From what I am reading, a mountain lion attacks at the back of the neck and the head area then drags the prey. This lists several children who were attacked and dragged leaving at least drag marks behind (and should also have left a scent to track).

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

While it does mention clothing being found inside a lion after attacking, it doesn't mention items specifically. Common sense would tell me soft clothing would be seen as part of the prey, but a kid with boots that are too big who is kicking and fighting for his life does not seem as likely to keep those on and to have a mountain lion chew them up. Not saying it cannot happen, but unlikely it did...in my opinion.

I do not think there would be any kicking or screaming. These animals are huge, fast and strong. I've wondered how far DeOrr was from ggf and friend.

 

[Cardinal47]

Actually, the parents seem well aware of the time throughout the activities of that day. It was mentioned that they didn't leave the campsite after 1pm. That's very specific. Also, when they went exploring it was going on 2pm, and DeOrr was getting ready to take his nap because he always takes his nap around 2pm. These things show an awareness of the time, IMO.

What has ALWAYS bothered me about the NAP is the amount of time DeOrr spent in the car that day.

I believe it was about a two hour carride there then another two hours they drove to the store.

Kids sleep on car rides. People put babies in car seats and drive them around the block so they can fall asleep.

I don't think DeOrr was ready for a nap.

 

[ILOKAL]

I still believe if there were any Mountain Lions or bears in the area a good tracker would have found signs of them such as scat. Have we heard from those searching of any sighting of such?

Were trackers used? At the onset? The scat from a mountain lion is not particularly unusual and looks very much like dog poop.

 

[Floridian]

I listened with headphones and I believe the mother does state an hour before she is asked to clarify it by the dispatcher. The mother seems unusually calm, but I suppose different people handle it in their own way. I would be a blubbering basket case by that time if I had been looking and found nothing. The frantic side would have taken over and the panic set in.

I would assume the answer to "How long has he been missing?" would go back to the approximate time he went missing and not the time she found he was missing. If I came back to camp and found my child gone...I would start the time when he was last seen running in my head like a beacon swirling around to indicate where he could have gotten off to in that amount of time.

Nancy Grace stated parents looked for hour before they called 911.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

[h=1]ID - Deorr Kunz Jr, 2 yr old -- Media,Timelines and Maps **NO DISCUSSION"[/h]

Thank you, Bessie, for the Media, Timelines and Maps Thread for Deorr!

I find that visiting the Media threads answers many of my questions prior to visiting the discussion thread...

and helps me catch up when I fall behind!

:tyou:

 

[jmcgladr]

Yes. There would be a trace especially as you said, "bit and carried". There would be blood and DeOrr's scent at the point of capture. DeOrr's scent would have been sloughing off in the form of skin cells in a struggle with the lion and someone would have most likely heard the baby screaming. I don't see it is possible a lion could attack him and take him off without a single piece of evidence left behind.

I really don't think a 28 lb toddler would have been able to put up much of a struggle against a 130 lb. mountain lion - sad to say, he'd have died instantly and it could have been bloodless at the point he was snatched. Lions kill their prey by breaking their necks, killing their prey instantly. There would likely be no time to scream or react for a child of that size who would not have been expecting it. Sorry for the graphic description.

 

[Cardinal47]

That must be very interesting work with drones. What could he expect to find from a reported missing child?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I do not think there would be any kicking or screaming. These animals are huge, fast and strong. I've wondered how far DeOrr was from ggf and friend.

I really don't think a 28 lb toddler would have been able to put up much of a struggle against a 130 lb. mountain lion - sad to say, he'd have died instantly and it could have been bloodless at the point he was snatched. Lions kill their prey by breaking their necks, killing their prey instantly. There would likely be no time to scream or react for a child of that size who would not have been expecting it. Sorry for the graphic description.

Maybe there wasn't time for screams or putting up a fight. Still...I don't see how it could be bloodless. They don't gently kill their prey and not gouge them in order to move them. I have heard of several lion attacks and not once did I hear there were no initial marks on the person or there was no blood at the scene.

Again, I don't think this case in the end will result in being mauled by a wild animal. I believe something nefarious happened to little DeOrr and he will eventually turn up or the truth will be found.

Evidently, the sheriff doesn't deem it to be likely either. I will defer to him again. He knows the area and he also knows the happenings behind the scenes.

 

[darcedarce]

Then please read up on mountain lions. Read many, many sources. Learn their behaviors. The kill WOULD have been instant on the "first shot". The mountain lion would NOT have been seen. There would be NO struggle from a child so small and a kill so swift. All the things you believe could NOT have happened coincide with how the cougar hunts. They drag prey that is too large or too heavy to carry. Circumstances would also have a bearing on how the lion retreated.

I've just spent the last hour reading up on many, many near misses. All of those things COULD have happened but for them all to align just right is just beyond my belief. Jmo

 

[Paulas88]

What has ALWAYS bothered me about the NAP is the amount of time DeOrr spent in the car that day.

I believe it was about a two hour carride there then another two hours they drove to the store.

Kids sleep on car rides. People put babies in car seats and drive them around the block so they can fall asleep.

I don't think DeOrr was ready for a nap.

Exactly! I was thinking the same thing. he would have been sleeping on the way to campsite, and probably to the store and back.

 

[Floridian]

Did anything come ABOUT with the heat sonar. I thought they were using heat sonar, bout I haven't heard any results. I personally don't think he's in the water, nor ate by any animals, nor wandered off.. camping involves hiking, hiking involves trails, trails involve the passing of people from different spots. Deorr would've never been heard of he was grabbed by neck or head by animals. Too many circumstances to lead to a sick person is involved, whether someone there, or ahiker, or someone hiding. Statistics are..... is if someone is not wanting to be found for some reason or another, mountains, creeks, campsites are best place to disappear too, especially criminals not wanting to get caught. Jus saying that's my opinion. It's been stated not too say certain things on here, so I won't. But I have my thoughts. And my gut keeps taking me back to camp site. I believe it's all fixing to unfold, because four people, have no idea.. I just doubt think so... he was two for goodness sake... and scent keeps going back to campsite....why?????? I pray and pray for this baby. And it's heart breaking. I hope the parents are innocent, abd they seem genuinely heart broken.I'm only speaking about the parents...

 

[SeriouslySearching]

What has ALWAYS bothered me about the NAP is the amount of time DeOrr spent in the car that day.

I believe it was about a two hour carride there then another two hours they drove to the store.

Kids sleep on car rides. People put babies in car seats and drive them around the block so they can fall asleep.

I don't think DeOrr was ready for a nap.

I have never known a kid who gets to a camping spot and isn't wide-eyed and bushy tailed with the expectation of fun and wonderment at his surroundings. Naps? No way!