Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #34

[Redvines86]

My guess is that could be a clue, or at least indicate that further testing/analysis/examination of tissue samples might be a good idea

So I had to skip a few threads during all of this, and I missed the Alex autopsy coming back negative thread. What did you guys think happened for the most part? I realize that is a huge and complicated question, so I get not summarizing for me MOO

 

[155etta]

"According to the intelligence analyst, Mow said he met Lori at a temple, and they had an instant connection. He knew she was a gatherer and had to connect her with Gibb"

In the interview with Nate MG said that Lori came up to her at a class she was teaching at church.

We've seen this before, Justin Lum reported on it March 11th but that now seems like a long time ago
New e-mails show FBI researched podcasts done by Lori Vallow

Does this mean Gibb was a "gatherer"?

 

[Nurse Gen]

So I had to skip a few threads during all of this, and I missed the Alex autopsy coming back negative thread. What did you guys think happened for the most part? I realize that is a huge and complicated question, so I get not summarizing for me MOO

Of all the WS with medical backgrounds that discussed this, I nominate myself as the least experienced in toxicology. But basically they didn't test for much. EMTs give Narcan in the kind of situation AxC presented, and that was found. He had cardiovascular disease not unusual for his age and occupation as a long haul truck driver. And he had pulmonary embolisms. Those were deemed the cause of death by the Medical Examiner. IMO there could be nefarious factors that contributed to his death that weren't detected on autopsy. My hope is that the fact that the investigation continues despite the autopsy report means that other evidence might be relevant. Maybe an email about AxC needing a zombectomy or something JMO

 

[AmandaSkis]

Alex' potassium was normal -- it was performed on vitreous fluid and not blood and the reference ranges are totally different for the two. I haven't seen his white count -- where was that published?

I was just throwing out ideas. The results I listed are just examples.

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

So I had to skip a few threads during all of this, and I missed the Alex autopsy coming back negative thread. What did you guys think happened for the most part? I realize that is a huge and complicated question, so I get not summarizing for me MOO

Also, there was a forensic expert on one of Tricia's YouTube episodes, who basically said that upon gross examination there was no need to look further i.e. the presence of the lung clot and absence of any indicator of poisoning like discoloration or characteristic odor.
And notably there was an FBI agent present at autopsy.
ETA search for posts by @Riverdoc to find where the discussions were mostly happening

 

[Nurse Gen]

I was just throwing out ideas. The results I listed are just examples.

I picked up on that
@FindingJoLee you sound like you know something about this aspect of medical science, spill tea please!

 

[Rush4087]

Alex' potassium was normal -- it was performed on vitreous fluid and not blood and the reference ranges are totally different for the two. I haven't seen his white count -- where was that published?

Before AC's autopsy results were released, I felt certain that he had somehow committed suicide (guilt). I just thought it would be diffucult (though not impossible) to effectively poison him while out of town (and both Lori and Chad were in HI). I didn't see ZP as the type, thought JM very unlikely, and didn't think AC had any life insurance which might have benefitted either ZP or LV, but I admit I don't know.

After reading the autopsy report and the conclusion though, I began to wonder (as others are wondering on the thread now): just how thorough was that autopsy when it comes to poison?

I wondered whether AC could have perhaps killed himself by giving himself an injection of air in the leg. While I'm no Dr., I believe this method has been used before in both suicides and murders. Although it takes a lot of air, I believe such an injection could result in a PE.

I did find it a little strange (okay, and a bit amusing) that the report stated that AC "died of natural causes". Same as ol Joe R. And I guess that's just about right - though I don't necessarily agree that 52 yrs old is a natural age for a man to die. And I guess those causes were at least more natural than gunshots from a .45

In "No Country for Old Men", when Sherriff Ed Tom Bell is told by his deputy that the coroner had determined that several cartel hit men who'd recently been killed in a gun battle out in the desert had all died of natural causes, the Sheriff said: "well, I guess that's about right.. natural to the line of work they was in"

So I guess AC's death really could have been due to natural causes after all. JMO

 

[StrangerThanFiction]

I think she was at a crossroads at that time, in shock, maybe paralyzed by fear (of both LE and Lori and Chad) and it took her a few days to process, organize thoughts, and get enough courage to spill the whole story as she knew it to LE. Moo.

Also, remember it was a Thanksgiving weekend, so that could also play into when the 2nd phone-call took place..

 

[Nurse Gen]

Also, there was a forensic expert on one of Tricia's YouTube episodes, who basically said that upon gross examination there was no need to look further i.e. the presence of the lung clot and absence of any indicator of poisoning like discoloration or characteristic odor.
And notably there was an FBI agent present at autopsy.
ETA search for posts by @Riverdoc to find where the discussions were mostly happening

Dang I missed that You tube, thanks for linking the old posts

 

[Nurse Gen]

Before AC's autopsy results were released, I felt certain that he had somehow committed suicide (guilt). I just thought it would be diffucult (though not impossible) to effectively poison him while out of town (and both Lori and Chad were in HI). I didn't see ZP as the type, thought JM very unlikely, and didn't think AC had any life insurance which might have benefitted either ZP or LV, but I admit I don't know.

After reading the autopsy report and the conclusion though, I began to wonder (as others are wondering on the thread now): just how thorough was that autopsy when it comes to poison?

I wondered whether AC could have perhaps killed himself by giving himself an injection of air in the leg. While I'm no Dr., I believe this method has been used before in both suicides and murders. Although it takes a lot of air, I believe such an injection could result in a PE.

I did find it a little strange (okay, and a bit amusing) that the report stated that AC "died of natural causes". Same as ol Joe R. And I guess that's just about right - though I don't necessarily agree that 52 years yrs old
is a natural age for a man to die. And I guess those causes were at least more natural than gunshots from a .45

In "No Country for Old Men", when Sherriff Ed Tom Bell is told by his deputy that the coroner had determined that several cartel hit men who'd recently been killed in a gun battle out in the desert had all died of natural causes, the Sheriff said: "well, I guess that's about right.. natural to the line of work they was in"

So I guess AC's death really could have been just due to natural causes. JMO

Also someone mentioned the stress of what was going on in the "group" at the time could have exacerbated his cardiovascular problems and contributed to the pulmonary embolisms

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

Before AC's autopsy results were released, I felt certain that he had somehow committed suicide (guilt). I just thought it would be diffucult (though not impossible) to effectively poison him while out of town (and both Lori and Chad were in HI). I didn't see ZP as the type, thought JM very unlikely, and didn't think AC had any life insurance which might have benefitted either ZP or LV, but I admit I don't know.

After reading the autopsy report and the conclusion though, I began to wonder (as others are wondering on the thread now): just how thorough was that autopsy when it comes to poison?

I wondered whether AC could have perhaps killed himself by giving himself an injection of air in the leg. While I'm no Dr., I believe this method has been used before in both suicides and murders. Although it takes a lot of air, I believe such an injection could result in a PE.

I did find it a little strange (okay, and a bit amusing) that the report stated that AC "died of natural causes". Same as ol Joe R. And I guess that's just about right - though I don't necessarily agree that 52 years yrs old is a natural age for a man to die. And I guess those causes were at least more natural than gunshots from a .45

In "No Country for Old Men", when Sherriff Ed Tom Bell is told by his deputy that the coroner had determined that several cartel hit men who'd recently been killed in a gun battle out in the desert had all died of natural causes, the Sheriff said: "well, I guess that's about right.. natural to the line of work they was in"

So I guess AC's death really could have been just due to natural causes. JMO

I was JUST thinking this.. If Alex got a DVT from driving back and forth doing all the dirty work, well.. so be it.

 

[Redvines86]

Thanks everyone! Very helpful answers!

 

[Daylily]

Was there any reason given as to why Chad couldn’t divorce Tammy?

That makes him seem incredibly weak. I think that weakness would have to be clear to Lori, MG, etc. What kind of super prophet can’t manage a common divorce?

I might be missing something, but I highly doubt Chad believed any of his stuff. He lied about the NDE and everything else down the line, I think.

I could be mistaken, but I think in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a man can’t be a bishop (congregation leader) if he has previously been divorced. That may be tradition and not strictly policy. Chad may have still been having aspirations of moving “up” in church leadership throughout his life, especially if he considered himself on the same level with apostles. I have never heard of an apostle who has been divorced.

Being divorced would have complicated his ability to be sealed in the temple to Lori (adultery aside). Men can be sealed again if their first wife passes away, but I don’t believe they can be sealed to two living women. Lori would not have been able to be sealed to Chad if she had previously been sealed to Charles, as women can only be sealed to one man (alive or dead) as long as she is living. They would have had to go through a process of having their previous sealings “dissolved”. And I think that process has to be approved by the First Presidency of the Church. So not impossible, but more difficult and with much more scrutiny. They would have most likely ended up excommunicated if the details of their beliefs and relationship became known. MOO

 

[FindingJoLee]

I was just throwing out ideas. The results I listed are just examples.

Sorry, I should have figured that out since that's exactly what you said. (I got confused because there was some earlier discussion about whether Alex' potassium level was normal, so I had it in my mind it was a reference to that.)

I could be mistaken, but I think in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a man can’t be a bishop (congregation leader) if he has previously been divorced. That may be tradition and not strictly policy. Chad may have still been having aspirations of moving “up” in church leadership throughout his life, especially if he considered himself on the same level with apostles. I have never heard of an apostle who has been divorced.

Being divorced would have complicated his ability to be sealed in the temple to Lori (adultery aside). Men can be sealed again if their first wife passes away, but I don’t believe they can be sealed to two living women. Lori would not have been able to be sealed to Chad if she had previously been sealed to Charles, as women can only be sealed to one man (alive or dead) as long as she is living. They would have had to go through a process of having their previous sealings “dissolved”. And I think that process has to be approved by the First Presidency of the Church. So not impossible, but more difficult and with much more scrutiny. They would have most likely ended up excommunicated if the details of their beliefs and relationship became known. MOO

You can be a Bishop after a divorce. Chad should not have worried.

 

[KonaHonu]

This has been a question of mine all along. We keep hearing about all this within the temple, recommends etc. are private or secret, or "we will never know". But I would suspect the LDS Church has been here before .........for who knows what. Would they offer anything to LE? Would they provide surveillance data if asked? Would the purposefully find Chad if they did want to take actions? I just wonder because all these folks do "throw around goin on down to the temple" a lot, when I assume it was just for some sort of prestige.

This might be of some help Priest–penitent privilege - Wikipedia regarding clergy/penitant priviledge in the United States. It is undecided who the priviledge belongs to, the penitant or the church. So it seems doubtful to me that the prosecutor would risk the case by asking for surveillanec video and equally doubtful that the LDS church would give it up without a fight. While I don't think they support L&C in the slightest, they would not want to establish a dangerous precedent.

Given that most adult (males?) are considered members of the priesthood in the LDS church as I understand it, and given that LDS practive heavily involves peer counseling, again, as I understand it, ANY private conversation with another (male?) member of the church could be considered priviledged. If I were a prosecutor I don't think I would want to build my case on anything obtained from the church.

 

[KonaHonu]

MG says that Lori wanted Chad to move to Arizona but Chad told her that she needed to move too Rexburg. So she wasn't running to Rexburg b/c of threats from Charles family, like Lori's family claims. She seemed to want to stay in Arizona and didn't want to go to Rexburg. She wasn't scared at all. She went there because Chad told her that is where she needs to be. MOO

I'm beginning to see things a little differently. I think Lori wanted to be with Chad. She expected Chad to move to Arizona (warm) after Tammy died in the prophesized car wreck. Once Charles was gone and she was asked to vacate the rental house she moved to Rexburg and the pressure was on Chad to get rid of Tammy and be with Lori. So she told everyone, likely including Chad that the move was about threats but I bet it was really all about going after her man. That does not mean she killed the kids or not. She may have and told Chad she has them hidden and she may really have them hidden.

I don't understand HOW, just HOW grown up people can not only believe, but even LISTEN to all this BS?! Is the critical thinking completely turned off?
If my friend would tell me that she was told her husband became a zombie and was supposed to die, or that she is a god and everyone is chasing her and wants to kill her, I would myself advise her to go to mental evaluation!
What we see here is a bunch of people that "do not judge" and believe that the person receives revelations just because they say so!
I understand, that "faith" by itself assumes that certain degree of absence of critical thinking , because it's about believing, but to this extent?..
One sick man who dreams of power tells others who should live and who should die, and others buy that. Crazy.
Sorry, if this is outside of TOS

ETA: I just so much hoped that all that BS about zombies was just CD's and LV's mating dance. That would give hope that JJ and TR are somewhere safe. Unfortunately, now I have to accept that chances are almost non-existent.

I think the situation is that other people's beliefs are at some level crazy to anyone who does not share them. But we have to tolerate, accept, and at some level respect other peoples' beliefs to maintain a civil society. I think believing in zombies is pretty out there but there are places in the world where it is essentially mainstream christianity. At the same time, the religion I was raised in believes the communion wafer is truly transformed into the body of christ and the wine into his blood. I think that is both insane and cannibalistic.

I do my best not to judge someone's mental status based on what they believe. I'm not religious myself but I think judging people on their beliefs, no matter how bizzare is a dangerous slippery slope. But once they start taking actions, even with their own family, I think there are broader social concerns that come into play.

 

[LDS social scientist]

This might be of some help Priest–penitent privilege - Wikipedia regarding clergy/penitant priviledge in the United States. It is undecided who the priviledge belongs to, the penitant or the church. So it seems doubtful to me that the prosecutor would risk the case by asking for surveillanec video and equally doubtful that the LDS church would give it up without a fight. While I don't think they support L&C in the slightest, they would not want to establish a dangerous precedent.

Given that most adult (males?) are considered members of the priesthood in the LDS church as I understand it, and given that LDS practive heavily involves peer counseling, again, as I understand it, ANY private conversation with another (male?) member of the church could be considered priviledged. If I were a prosecutor I don't think I would want to build my case on anything obtained from the church.

I will tentatively differ with you on the first conclusion and more confidently differ on the second (though this is just my opinion -- I don't have any sure knowledge).

I do not think that in the LDS system temple attendance would qualify as clergy/penitent privilege. Temples are not places of personal counseling. The church may be reticent about handing over certain information obtained from the temple for other reasons, but I don't think that this is the claim they would make.

On the second point, I think it is fairly well established within LDS culture that only certain situations/relationships would really count as counseling with spiritual leaders: counseling with members by bishops, stake presidents (or higher levels), and perhaps the Elders Quorum president and Relief Society president (with possibly extension to members of their presidencies -- their two counselors) may apply . I don't think either church members or the church itself would attempt to apply penitent/clergy privilege beyond that.

But this does mean that that privilege perhaps does involve GB, if as the released video seems to indicate, he was Charles's and Lori's bishop.

 

[KonaHonu]

And what about waiting for CV and TD to die?
MG confirms that LV and CD waited for Tammy's death. CD even brought LV to Rexburg in September and they were openly going around, showing their relationships!
How cruel is that towards Tammy! I wonder, what CD's children will say now. "Revelation", huh?
And waiting for CV to die on his trip from TX to AZ - of course he shouldn't have needed his truck and belongings according to LV and CD... "How could he not die?", asks LV? "Oh, don't worry, we'll handle that", answers CD. "Just a timing mistake".

I've been accused of putting forth wild hypotheses but usually only because they are not consistent with teh echo chamber here. So here is a wild hypothesis...

Maybe AC was supposed to kill CV in a car wreck somewhere on his way back to Gilbert in January 2019. When it did not happen, Lori left, stayed with AC and that's what led to the "disgraced the family" fight in the street. Then Lori gives him a second chance, goes to Hawaii and tells April she thinks CV is going to die (i. e., AC has been assigned to kill him while she is in Hawaii).

I know everyone here wants AC to be a killer. But reports from people who knew him say he was a gentle soul and not a killer. There was a poster here who knew him from the Phoenix comedy circuit but I think she left because of all the disparagement of AC. MG also said be was kind and pious.

 

[KonaHonu]

One of the weirdest parts to me is when MG visited LVD in Rexburg. If we assume Tylee was already "gone" by then, then why even have the conversation with MG about JJ? Wouldn't LVD already know "the inevitable" conclusion would be the same as for TR? Was it part of a cover/lie, or to make herself LVD feel better? Was she actually considering sending JJ away or just building an elaborate lie? How could you have that conversation knowing what had already become of TR?? My heart is breaking just thinking about it, and her mother is sitting there thinking about offing the next one while chatting with a friend??

On the otherhand, why would Lori invite Melanie to Rexburg if she had something to hide?

 

[KonaHonu]

I will tentatively differ with you on the first conclusion and more confidently differ on the second (though this is just my opinion -- I don't have any sure knowledge).

I do not think that in the LDS system temple attendance would qualify as clergy/penitent privilege. Temples are not places of personal counseling. The church may be reticent about handing over certain information obtained from the temple for other reasons, but I don't think that this is the claim they would make.

On the second point, I think it is fairly well established within LDS culture that only certain situations/relationships would really count as counseling with spiritual leaders: counseling with members by bishops, stake presidents (or higher levels), and perhaps the Elders Quorum president and Relief Society president (with possibly extension to members of their presidencies -- their two counselors) may apply . I don't think either church members or the church itself would attempt to apply penitent/clergy privilege beyond that.

But this does mean that that privilege perhaps does involve GB, if as the released video seems to indicate, he was Charles's and Lori's bishop.

I defer to your higher knowledge. Just saying that the law seems to respect any private communications related to religious counseling so I doubt, given my understanding of LDS practices which are likely inadequate, that a private discussion with a peer for religious guidance would not be priviledged, at least arguably. That little nuance is going to make this entire case hard to try.