If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

So this is something I find odd. I have watched the Doctor Phil interview with BR. And have read different accounts about the time line, but it wasn't till recently that I heard about BR friend being over / staying over. Can someone please clarify if the boy in question was just at the Ramsey's house visiting for a short period of time or did he spend the night? I have tried to search it out but cant seem to find anything about him.
There's nothing to clarify, there has never been any evidence or statement regarding this. It's something amateur sleuthers made up.
 
So this is something I find odd. I have watched the Doctor Phil interview with BR. And have read different accounts about the time line, but it wasn't till recently that I heard about BR friend being over / staying over. Can someone please clarify if the boy in question was just at the Ramsey's house visiting for a short period of time or did he spend the night? I have tried to search it out but cant seem to find anything about him.
People are using their logic to come up with that. The first item is the Ramsey's made a late stop over at the Stines after their party. This is where the accounts of the family members, of what happened then and over the next day, start to oddly diverge. And of course we know JonBenet was never seen alive again. The question is why would they make this late night stop over to their neighbor's house. Giving some gifts does not really seem to explain it. Second there are different stories about who got what bikes for Christmas. Photos from the Christmas morning were mysteriously absent, so it's hard to tell from the pictures which bikes were there. There is the fact that Burke's bike apparently seemed to be ridden out of there overnight, and not returned. Yet police never seem to be concerned about it, so it seems like they knew where the bike went to. There is the unusual fact of the Ramsey's and stines being attached at the hip after the murder, even moving together to Atlanta. There is the fact that the Stine boy had gone on trips with the Ramsey's before, to keep Burke company. You put all that together, you come up with a picture there. It seems like the Ramsey's picked up the Stein boy at their stop at the neighbors and brought him over. Probably to go on the trip with them the next day. Yet something apparently unusual happened and the Stine boy decided to ride back to his house, on Burke's bike late night.
 
Can someone please clarify if the boy in question was just at the Ramsey's house visiting for a short period of time or did he spend the night? I have tried to search it out but cant seem to find anything about him.
It is only a rumor. There are many questions about that topic that do not have any answers. The most compelling to me is why was DS invited to testify to the grand jury.
 
People are using their logic to come up with that. The first item is the Ramsey's made a late stop over at the Stines after their party. This is where the accounts of the family members, of what happened then and over the next day, start to oddly diverge. And of course we know JonBenet was never seen alive again. The question is why would they make this late night stop over to their neighbor's house. Giving some gifts does not really seem to explain it. Second there are different stories about who got what bikes for Christmas. Photos from the Christmas morning were mysteriously absent, so it's hard to tell from the pictures which bikes were there. There is the fact that Burke's bike apparently seemed to be ridden out of there overnight, and not returned. Yet police never seem to be concerned about it, so it seems like they knew where the bike went to. There is the unusual fact of the Ramsey's and stines being attached at the hip after the murder, even moving together to Atlanta. There is the fact that the Stine boy had gone on trips with the Ramsey's before, to keep Burke company. You put all that together, you come up with a picture there. It seems like the Ramsey's picked up the Stein boy at their stop at the neighbors and brought him over. Probably to go on the trip with them the next day. Yet something apparently unusual happened and the Stine boy decided to ride back to his house, on Burke's bike late night.
The Ramseys had intended to make three stops to drop off Christmas presents before leaving on their trip the next morning, and then leaving right away again for the cruise. They stopped at the Walker's and then the Stine's. It was getting late so they decided not to stop at the Fernie's. What is suspicious about dropping off Christmas gifts to good friends whom you weren't going to see for a couple of weeks?

There was no room for Doug Stine on the plane. There were 6 passenger seats, 1 pilot seat and 1 co-pilot seat. It could accommodate 7 passengers if they flew without a co-pilot, which they were. So you have 1 pilot (Mike Archuleta), 4 Ramseys (JR, PR, BR & JBR), and then John's two older kids and his older daughter's fiancé for a total of 8 people. Maximum occupancy.

The bike rumors started 18 months later with Lou Smit's questions, and telling John that he had not seen pictures of the bikes in the crime scene photos. John says they were in the garage, which makes total sense since they were leaving on vacation and would be gone. To my knowledge, there are no crime scene pictures (none that I have seen anyway) of the garage. Good ole Lou who was not at the scene until weeks later and only looked at pictures, decided this was an issue. Just like he assumed that there was a wide open window in the basement that he saw in a picture, without bothering to confirm that in fact it had been opened like that by police for the crime scene pictures. No bikes were ever reported missing in police reports. It is not a fact that Burke's bike was ridden away on Christmas night.

By sometime in 1997, both Stines had lost their jobs at UC Boulder. There were some apparent improprieties that resulted in Glen's employment coming to an end, he was essentially forced to resign, and Susan was on a timed contract that had come to an end and not been renewed. They were trying to refinance their house and their financial situation was tenuous. When John and Patsy moved back to Atlanta, John finally found a job with another company. He was able to extend an offer of a job to Glen who had not yet been able to find permanent employment. So the Stines followed the Ramseys to Atlanta because of that situation.
 
The Ramseys had intended to make three stops to drop off Christmas presents before leaving on their trip the next morning, and then leaving right away again for the cruise. They stopped at the Walker's and then the Stine's. It was getting late so they decided not to stop at the Fernie's. What is suspicious about dropping off Christmas gifts to good friends whom you weren't going to see for a couple of weeks?

There was no room for Doug Stine on the plane. There were 6 passenger seats, 1 pilot seat and 1 co-pilot seat. It could accommodate 7 passengers if they flew without a co-pilot, which they were. So you have 1 pilot (Mike Archuleta), 4 Ramseys (JR, PR, BR & JBR), and then John's two older kids and his older daughter's fiancé for a total of 8 people. Maximum occupancy.

The bike rumors started 18 months later with Lou Smit's questions, and telling John that he had not seen pictures of the bikes in the crime scene photos. John says they were in the garage, which makes total sense since they were leaving on vacation and would be gone. To my knowledge, there are no crime scene pictures (none that I have seen anyway) of the garage. Good ole Lou who was not at the scene until weeks later and only looked at pictures, decided this was an issue. Just like he assumed that there was a wide open window in the basement that he saw in a picture, without bothering to confirm that in fact it had been opened like that by police for the crime scene pictures. No bikes were ever reported missing in police reports. It is not a fact that Burke's bike was ridden away on Christmas night.

By sometime in 1997, both Stines had lost their jobs at UC Boulder. There were some apparent improprieties that resulted in Glen's employment coming to an end, he was essentially forced to resign, and Susan was on a timed contract that had come to an end and not been renewed. They were trying to refinance their house and their financial situation was tenuous. When John and Patsy moved back to Atlanta, John finally found a job with another company. He was able to extend an offer of a job to Glen who had not yet been able to find permanent employment. So the Stines followed the Ramseys to Atlanta because of that situation.
So seven seats, that's four Ramseys plus a pilot plus the neighbor's son, that six. I don't know if it's been determined that both of the adult children were going to fly with them on that plane to Atlanta. I would like to see more information on that. Also how come John didn't pilot his plane to Atlanta? I saw that he is a licensed pilot.

So you're saying, that they don't know how many bikes there were, because they were in the garage and there was no pictures of the garage. Burke admitted later that he got a bike for Christmas. I think even you admitted he got a bike. Where is the picture of it? You're saying it's in the garage, how do you know that? There is a tire track going to and from the house and not a second tire track, showing it going in the opposite direction. You add that together, that tells you what went on there. I don't think your argument is compelling.
 
So you're saying, that they don't know how many bikes there were, because they were in the garage and there was no pictures of the garage. Burke admitted later that he got a bike for Christmas. I think even you admitted he got a bike. Where is the picture of it? You're saying it's in the garage, how do you know that? There is a tire track going to and from the house and not a second tire track, showing it going in the opposite direction. You add that together, that tells you what went on there. I don't think your argument is compelling.
The story about the bikes is just one more inconsistency to add to the list of many. First there was JB and Patsy who received a bike. Then Burke says he too got a bike, but John is sure that Burke already had a bike and did not get a new one for Christmas. He says Burke only got his Nintendo. Burke still remembers he got a new bike and talks about sitting on it. Neighbors saw both JB and Burke riding their bikes on Christmas day. But the neighbor did not know for sure if Burke was riding his old bike or new one. Then there is the talk that a bike was intended for Burke but it wasn't for Christmas. Then suddenly John remembers that Burke too got a Bike, so suddenly the two bikes was three bikes. Then John suddenly says that he also got a bike - for himself for Christmas. So one was in garage to be brought out for Christmas, two were on the photos (Patsy's and JB's, the one that John gave himself was somewhere no one knows about. So concluding from the different times and stories that they have told, they all got a bike. Three becomes four.
 
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The story about the bikes are just one more inconsistency to add to the list of many. First there was JB and Patsy who received a bike. Then Burke says he too got a bike, but John is sure that Burke already had a bike and did not get a new one for Christmas. He says Burke only got his Nintendo. Burke still remembers he got a new bike and talks about sitting on it. Neighbors saw both JB and Burke riding their bikes on Christmas day. But the neighbor did not know for sure if Burke was riding his old bike or new one. Then there is the talk that a bike was intended for Burke but it wasn't for Christmas. Then suddenly John remembers that Burke too got a Bike, so suddenly the two bikes was three bikes. Then John suddenly says that he also got a bike - for himself for Christmas. So one was in garage to be brought out for Christmas, two were on the photos (Patsy's and JB's, the one that John gave himself was somewhere no one knows about. So concluding from the different times and stories that they have told, they all got a bike. Three becomes four.
Ha ha, that was well done, that shows the ridiculousness of all the multiple stories they told. They're not going to lie this hard about a bike unless the bike had some significance. So the logic is, the neighbor boy took the bike.<modsnip - not an approved source> Maybe that's what the grand jury was about.

<modsnip>
 
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I just want to say as an aside. The best way to tell if somebody's lying is if they tell multiple versions of a story. I've dealt with situations in my personal life before, where I'm trying to figure out if somebody's lying, actually in some cases I know they're lying, but it's always interesting to hear all the different versions of a situation that they come up with. That's because they are usually not intelligent enough to remember what they said before, and or keep their versions factually connected. When I bring up some fact that does not make sense with their version, then of course they right away revise their old version and come up with a whole new version. This seems to me exactly what the Ramsey family was doing, and is still doing, for some of them. I know what conclusion that leads me to.
 
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When looking at all the inconsistencies that they have told over time, they tend to create confusion about things that have some value for the investigation. It could be done on purpose to add more confusion, or by not having their stories yet aligned between the three of them straight from the beginning. I would assume that there is some kind of a reason for them not to stick to one story. Surely the parents would remember which kid got what for Christmas, as it was just a few days before. Why would it matter if they had said that they all got bikes from the beginning? No one would have cared and would just assumed that the other two were probably not captured on a photo, or that photo has not been published. Or said that only Patsy and JB got bikes and that's it. No one would have questioned that statement if they all just would have said the same from the beginning.
It's all a game of "who is telling the truth?".
 
ive heard the theory Burke attacked her in the night. She was not dead but she was beyond redemption. It was about losing one child or two. THe lengthy ranson note , the amount asked , wouldnt they usually want a round figure? Didnt they say recently there was male DNA on JOnbenet that was unaccounted for. I saw a tour of the house its much bigger than it looks i guess if an intruder gagged Jonbenet no one would have heard. LIke the Keddie Cabin , the boys asleeep while 3 are slaughtered.
 
People are using their logic to come up with that. The first item is the Ramsey's made a late stop over at the Stines after their party. This is where the accounts of the family members, of what happened then and over the next day, start to oddly diverge. And of course we know JonBenet was never seen alive again. The question is why would they make this late night stop over to their neighbor's house. Giving some gifts does not really seem to explain it. Second there are different stories about who got what bikes for Christmas. Photos from the Christmas morning were mysteriously absent, so it's hard to tell from the pictures which bikes were there. There is the fact that Burke's bike apparently seemed to be ridden out of there overnight, and not returned. Yet police never seem to be concerned about it, so it seems like they knew where the bike went to. There is the unusual fact of the Ramsey's and stines being attached at the hip after the murder, even moving together to Atlanta. There is the fact that the Stine boy had gone on trips with the Ramsey's before, to keep Burke company. You put all that together, you come up with a picture there. It seems like the Ramsey's picked up the Stein boy at their stop at the neighbors and brought him over. Probably to go on the trip with them the next day. Yet something apparently unusual happened and the Stine boy decided to ride back to his house, on Burke's bike late night.
Thanks for this!
 
I've only recently begun deep dives into this case after years of having little interest. But then I saw the Netflix documentary and it's rekindled my interest. Earlier today I did a lot of reading on DP. And holy cow, his purported antics cannot be ignored, He could very well be at the core of Patsy's Dec 17th repeated calls to the pediatrician. The mysterious Dec 23rd 911 call at their Xmas party in which he was present! What exactly happened there? The oddball standby flight from Denver to Atlanta on Xmas eve. Who does that? Especially when you are a seasoned business executive. The fact that he remained so silent in the aftermath of the murder, a man that was supposedly much more boisterous. DP definitely a key figure in this entire saga especially when looking at the SA angle. For some reason I never thought it was JR.

But of course, little to nothing can be proven. The R's had that embarrassing detail covered up a long time ago and he passed away in 2020.
Do you think DP molested PR growing up? This would fit exactly with the GJ indictment wording. The R’s knowingly put JBR in danger bc PR knew DP would molest her based on past personal experience but allowed this legacy to carry on ultimately leading to JBR’s death. They helped cover it up bc it was PR’s own dad who’s history is known by her, also, NP had stated at some point all kids are abused a little maybe referring to PR’s abuse by DP and her awareness of it. This stuff is allowed to go n generationally in some families as if it’s normal.
Edited to add: maybe JBR threatened to tell the night she was murdered so she was hit on the head but not intentionally then bc of the underlying and known SA, the R’s picked a dramatic SA staging to deflect that this was ongoing familial abuse… which would also be social suicide to R’s for allowing this intentionally or not…therefore, the lying, attorneys and lack of cooperation
 
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Do you think DP molested PR growing up? This would fit exactly with the GJ indictment wording. The R’s knowingly put JBR in danger bc PR knew DP would molest her based on past personal experience but allowed this legacy to carry on ultimately leading to JBR’s death. They helped cover it up bc it was PR’s own dad who’s history is known by her, also, NP had stated at some point all kids are abused a little maybe referring to PR’s abuse by DP and her awareness of it. This stuff is allowed to go n generationally in some families as if it’s normal.
Edited to add: maybe JBR threatened to tell the night she was murdered so she was hit on the head but not intentionally then bc of the underlying and known SA, the R’s picked a dramatic SA staging to deflect that this was ongoing familial abuse… which would also be social suicide to R’s for allowing this intentionally or not…therefore, the lying, attorneys and lack of cooperation
As far as theories go, it ticks some boxes. Namely why PR would write a RN to cover for - who, if not JR or BR? Her own father, as well as the truth that she was also a victim? But this would require JR to go along with a coverup and staging, and why would he go along with that, would he have even known about the alleged proclivities of his FIL in this scenario?
IMHO
 
So seven seats, that's four Ramseys plus a pilot plus the neighbor's son, that six. I don't know if it's been determined that both of the adult children were going to fly with them on that plane to Atlanta. I would like to see more information on that. Also how come John didn't pilot his plane to Atlanta? I saw that he is a licensed pilot.

So you're saying, that they don't know how many bikes there were, because they were in the garage and there was no pictures of the garage. Burke admitted later that he got a bike for Christmas. I think even you admitted he got a bike. Where is the picture of it? You're saying it's in the garage, how do you know that? There is a tire track going to and from the house and not a second tire track, showing it going in the opposite direction. You add that together, that tells you what went on there. I don't think your argument is compelling.
The plane could accommodate 7 passengers plus 1 pilot. Scheduled to go on this trip were 1 pilot and 4 Ramseys from Boulder. Meeting them in Minneapolis were John's 2 adult children Melinda and John Andrew, and Melinda's fiancé Stuart. 4 plus 1 = 5. 5 + 3 = 8. That's all the plane could accommodate, no room for Doug or anyone else.

The two older kids plus Melinda's fiancé were in Atlanta. No one was going to Atlanta, they were going to Charlevoix. John did not pilot his bigger plane himself when flying with family because he had poor eyesight. He preferred to hire a pilot. John only flew his much smaller plane himself. That was a two seater.

John said the bikes were in the garage, which again makes sense because they were going to be gone for about 2 weeks. Would you leave brand new bikes out so anyone could take them? There is an older picture showing bike racks in the garage.

Where is the picture of what bike? There are pictures from Christmas. You say there is a tire track going to and from the house and not a 2nd track going in the opposite direction. That makes no sense. If there's a track going to and from, that adds up to two. Unless tire tracks come with arrows pointing in which direction they are going, you cannot possibly say with any certainty whether it was coming or going. Whatever you think of my "argument" is of no concern to me. All of this you are referring to referencing Doug is unproven rumors. If you have proof of Doug being there, riding off on a bike and having it found at the Stine's, please post it so we can all see it.
 
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The story about the bikes is just one more inconsistency to add to the list of many. First there was JB and Patsy who received a bike. Then Burke says he too got a bike, but John is sure that Burke already had a bike and did not get a new one for Christmas. He says Burke only got his Nintendo. Burke still remembers he got a new bike and talks about sitting on it. Neighbors saw both JB and Burke riding their bikes on Christmas day. But the neighbor did not know for sure if Burke was riding his old bike or new one. Then there is the talk that a bike was intended for Burke but it wasn't for Christmas. Then suddenly John remembers that Burke too got a Bike, so suddenly the two bikes was three bikes. Then John suddenly says that he also got a bike - for himself for Christmas. So one was in garage to be brought out for Christmas, two were on the photos (Patsy's and JB's, the one that John gave himself was somewhere no one knows about. So concluding from the different times and stories that they have told, they all got a bike. Three becomes four.
It is inconsistent for sure. But remember this interview happened 18 months after the murder.

John does specifically say he remembers 3 bikes. What he thought he remembered is that Burke was not getting a new bike yet, so the 3rd bike was for John. He later recalls that the 3rd bike was in fact for Burke. I believe there were the CC recipes from the bike store that showed 3 bikes.
 
It is inconsistent for sure. But remember this interview happened 18 months after the murder.

John does specifically say he remembers 3 bikes. What he thought he remembered is that Burke was not getting a new bike yet, so the 3rd bike was for John. He later recalls that the 3rd bike was in fact for Burke. I believe there were the CC recipes from the bike store that showed 3 bikes.
Was PR inconsistent about the bikes as Christmas gifts or just JR? If just JR, I can tell you for sure, I do Christmas around myself, always have, and hubby would not be very sure who got what for gifts. I have the impression PR probably planned and executed all of Christmas and JR just showed up and paid the bills.
IMO
 
"Few people would put a high priority on searching their house for a missing child if a seemingly-legitimate ransom note was found on the premises. It's interesting that even so Fleet White thought she might be hiding"

I don't agree with you at all.....if I have a ransom note in my house....first thing I will do is to try to find out if that person is still in the house and from where do they entered and if the house is now safe for me and the rest of my family before doing anything else........by checking the whole house they would have found her!
Except the note was not seemingly legitimate; it’s the most ridiculous thing ever written and impossible to be explained in any way except for a staged event.
 
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The plane could accommodate 7 passengers plus 1 pilot. Scheduled to go on this trip were 1 pilot and 4 Ramseys from Boulder. Meeting them in Minneapolis were John's 2 adult children Melinda and John Andrew, and Melinda's fiancé Stuart. 4 plus 1 = 5. 5 + 3 = 8. That's all the plane could accommodate, no room for Doug or anyone else.

The two older kids plus Melinda's fiancé were in Atlanta. No one was going to Atlanta, they were going to Charlevoix. John did not pilot his bigger plane himself when flying with family because he had poor eyesight. He preferred to hire a pilot. John only flew his much smaller plane himself. That was a two seater.

John said the bikes were in the garage, which again makes sense because they were going to be gone for about 2 weeks. Would you leave brand new bikes out so anyone could take them? There is an older picture showing bike racks in the garage.

Where is the picture of what bike? There are pictures from Christmas. You say there is a tire track going to and from the house and not a 2nd track going in the opposite direction. That makes no sense. If there's a track going to and from, that adds up to two. Unless tire tracks come with arrows pointing in which direction they are going, you cannot possibly say with any certainty whether it was coming or going. Whatever you think of my "argument" is of no concern to me. All of this you are referring to referencing Doug is unproven rumors. If you have proof of Doug being there, riding off on a bike and having it found at the Stine's, please post it so we can all see it.
So my point was there was one bike track on the property, in the new snow or frost sometime that prior evening or early morning. I used the phrase to and from, but perhaps I should have said, to OR from. You admitted that there were three bikes and that Burke got a bike. Only two bikes were in the Christmas pictures btw. So we have one bike track in the snow. There should be two bike tracks. One going away and one coming back. If we only have one bike track there, that meant the bike only went in one direction. If it came towards the property, we should have another bike at the house. Which apparently they did not. So since there is no other bike at the house, that meant one of the bikes left the house and did not come back that morning, before police got there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they found Patsy's and jonbenet's bike at the house. That means Burke's bike was missing. If you can link me some source that states that definitely states that Burke's new bike, not his old bike, was left in the garage that morning, I'll be glad to look at it

As to the plane, I thought you said they were seven seats including the pilot before. Now you're saying there's eight seats including the pilot. Do you really know how many seats there were in that plane? What's your source of information? Are you sure they didn't have some kind of extra seat where a child could sit? And are we sure the pilot was scheduled to take that short hop from Minneapolis to the other part of Minnesota? Perhaps John felt he could pilot that short flight during the day. And if not, what is your link that shows that the pilot was going with them to the other location.
 

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