If you were in charge of Kyron's investigation...

[TxLady2]

No problem there, but what do you think constitutes an airtight case? To me, it is usually forensic evidence (dna, fingerprints, etc.) motive/opportunity, and eye witnesses to support the rest of the case.

I just don't see how a case can be airtight without physical evidence or a confession; not to say it can't be prosecuted and won, but it is risky. Juries really seem to like to have something they can "see" to add to circumstances.

Correct. If they had an airtight case right now, Terri would be in jail and charged with whatever crime they have absolute proof of, awaiting trial.

And, btw, without a body, they can't be 100% sure what happened, so how could it possibly be "airtight?"

 

[TxLady2]

Some of the suggestions in this thread are good, but first of all, we don't know what they haven't done.... LE doesn't keep the public informed of every move they make or who they've talked to. I'm sure they do a lot of things in the background that we are never aware of.
Secondly... I'm not a trained investigator, so I am not going to sit here behind my computer screen and pretend that I know more than they do, and that includes the FBI and all the other agencies that have been working on the case. I might have done some things differently in the beginning, but that does not mean I would have been successful or had different results.
Lastly... the only good reason to bring in new management is if the old management isn't working out. We don't know how far this case has progressed, we don't know what they know or have proof of so far. They could be right on the verge of making an arrest or they could be stuck and need to take a different direction. Second-guessing their methods when we are not privy to everything they have is an exercise in futility, IMO. It makes for good discussion on these boards, though.
So if Kaine and Desiree still have confidence in LE and believe that they are doing a good job so far, and believe that they will bring Kyron home... who am I to discourage them? They are right there, in the middle of all this, so I assume they know more about it than any of us do. When they start raising a ruckus and accusing LE of messing it up.... I might start being worried.
All JMO.

 

[Calliope]

I don't respond well to guilt trips so I'm going to put my heartfelt thoughts down. moo

Rod Underhill heads up family court, misdemeanor court, and DV, he heads up Kyron's investigation. On the local thread I was told that this case is being looked at as a domestic violence issue - meaning within family.

ETA: He is in three divisions: (http://www.portlandonline.com/oni/index.cfm?a=41382&c=39641)
1. Family violence
2. Family justice
3. Misdemeanor court

The very first thing I would do is put a DA in charge who has broader experience in criminal investigations such as kidnapping, pedophilia, child murders. Considering that a 7yo child is missing from his school, it seems negligent to put a DV Deputy DA (Rod Underhill) in charge of the criminal investigation. Granted Underhill has over 1400 DV prosecutions, but is this really the scope of what happened to Kyron?

The one and only assumption that can be made for missing Kyron is that all possibilities have been ruled out except family violence.

IMO no wonder this investigation has made NO sense!

On the other hand, the quick like lightening RO and custody issues now make sense. Rod Underhill must know the inside and outs of the family court - makes it nice for Kaine. But what about poor Kyron - I want justice for Kyron. moo mho and all that stuff

I completely missed this along the way. I made the mistake of assuming the person investigating/prosecuting this crime was indeed someone with the experience to do so (as per your bolded statement above). Not to diminish what Underhill has accomplished, however this information has really set me back on my heels.

Domestic violence? Are they kidding me????

Thanks eyes.

 

[Calliope]

I just thought of a better way to say something, rather than "thinking exercise."

In some post, Tricia made a wonderful statement. I don't have the link to hand, but in essence she said that she told LE, when they asked what we do here on WS, was ...imagine a roomful of people and we spitball ideas around.

Isn't that great?

So, spitball some ideas. That's all. No inferences made, nor meant, about criticisms of LE or anyone.

If we decide, IMHO, that to question, to offer different ideas, to re-think, is a criticism, then we've effectively decided to accept whatever comes down the chute in whatever form from whoever is "up there". I have, ahem, a more "active" idea of what being a good citizen means. JMO, of course.

You have absolutely nothing to explain or apologize for; this is a great thread topic. Thanks to you and all who've contributed.

 

[Calliope]

Agreed. I think they'll find him but with or without, I'm guessing they have a strong case and are biding their time.

I have a problem with LE 'biding their time' while stating they have no evidence that Kyron is not alive.

(yes, that's criticism)

 

[Calliope]

Worth repeating. Yes, expanding horizons is a good thing, a very good thing, IMHO. And I sure hope that Kyron's case doesn't go cold. Frankly, I'd like to see them bring in someone new, fresh, to head this up--and not reporting to the current sheriff. Don't quite know how they'd do that, but I think that fresh eyes and questioning every single thing done and not done is a good idea. As the saying goes "this isn't personal, it's business"--and this business is the months-long disappearance of a little boy named Kyron, from his own small school in a quiet community.

Staton is up for election again at the end of this year. If another is elected sheriff, you might just see this happening.

 

[Calliope]

Six cats???

A spider?

 

[eyes4crime]

I completely missed this along the way. I made the mistake of assuming the person investigating/prosecuting this crime was indeed someone with the experience to do so (as per your bolded statement above). Not to diminish what Underhill has accomplished, however this information has really set me back on my heels.

Domestic violence? Are they kidding me????

Thanks eyes.

Set me back also Calli. This case has NOT made sense to me, and now with Underhill's specialty, it now, sort of does. I wonder at what point in time domestic violence became the investigative underpinnings for disappearing Kyron.

Pointed out to me in the questions for locals thread - domestic violence does involve criminal investigation. Yes, but really, does it involve knowledge of pedophilia, child murder from anyone not involved in the child's home life? I'm sure the Deputy DA Underhill is leading Gates and this entire investigation. A bazillion search warrants for Terri and her friends. Nothing outside the home environment of Kyron. No wonder it doesn't make sense to me. moo mho

ETA: And let's not forget the expedited RO, divorce papers, etc. All done with a Deputy DA who knows family court and those who work in it = very well. That's his territory. moo mho

 

[Kat010]

We can place ourselves in their shoes because that is what alot of us like to do.

It is easy to question what law enforcement is doingand how they are doing it because they haven't exactly presented themselves in the media very well and all is currently quiet.


They ask for tips (fred meyer and white truck) 2 months after a "crime" has been commited, when they knew this information within days of Kyron going missing, isn't instilling a lot of faith.

They don't want any volunteers out searching for Kyron just trained search and rescue? Most LE are asking for volunteers to be out searching. Especially people who are familiar with the area the person is missing in.

The failed MFH sting with the landscaper. That was just ridiculous.

They allowed Kyron's father, mother, and step-father to make all the inflammatory statements directed at TMH and imply that they were getting this info from the LE.

Now before I get flamed or banned let me state that I have two brothers involved in law enforcement and I am usually pro law enforcement. I believe in this case that a few errors were made early on and I sincerely hope that the LE has recovered from them.

I also know that most cases are not solved quickly and require time.

Kat started a great thread and I, for one, appreciate it. :dance:

We all want to bring Kyron home and it doesn't hurt for us to speculate and think of new ideas.

JMHO...

BBM...thank you so much. That means a lot to me. I try hard to bring value and interesting things to our discussions.

Great post, too. And no, because you, or anyone else, questions, or rightfully criticizes, our tax-funded employees, that does not make you anti-LE. As your family probably knows, the good ones in LE have no problems with questioning themselves or pointing out problems. And, as my cop friends say and have accepted--no one likes us, except when they need us and then we'd better hurry up! (Yes, many cops have a great sense of humor, even when it has to be of the darkling kind.)

Please give your brothers my thanks for their service.

 

[Kat010]

You have absolutely nothing to explain or apologize for; this is a great thread topic. Thanks to you and all who've contributed.

Thank you, Calliope, so very much. That was a very kind thing to post, and means so much to me. And yes, my thanks to you and everyone who's posted here.:dance:

 

[grandmaj]

One portion of the case may be the investigation of Family Justice since in fact it appears that LE believes he was taken by his Step Mother. She hasn't been named but the focus of the investigation has been on her.

IMO that isn't the only investigative focus. Underhill just happened to be the one presenting that aspect of the investigation and asking for leads about the truck on 8/11/2010.

In these news pieces it is made clear by Gates that there are still many other agencies involved including the Major Crimes Division.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24595649/detail.html

"We can't put a timeline on this case," Gates said. "It will take as long as it takes. Our process is still very dedicated. We have our major crimes team working on this full-time, seven days per week."

How many investigators are still dedicated to this case and what are they doing on a daily basis?

http://theportlander.com/2010/07/23...on-horman-case-acknowledge-criminal-behavior/

A significant investigative team composed of DA Office, East County Major Crime’s Team and other local, state and federal agencies are involved in this case. The numbers varies daily, based on investigative needs.

 

[Kat010]

One portion of the case may be the investigation of Family Justice since in fact it appears that LE believes he was taken by his Step Mother. She hasn't been named but the focus of the investigation has been on her.

IMO that isn't the only investigative focus. Underhill just happened to be the one presenting that aspect of the investigation and asking for leads about the truck on 8/11/2010.

In these news pieces it is made clear by Gates that there are still many other agencies involved including the Major Crimes Division.

http://www.kptv.com/news/24595649/detail.html

"We can't put a timeline on this case," Gates said. "It will take as long as it takes. Our process is still very dedicated. We have our major crimes team working on this full-time, seven days per week."

How many investigators are still dedicated to this case and what are they doing on a daily basis?

http://theportlander.com/2010/07/23...on-horman-case-acknowledge-criminal-behavior/

A significant investigative team composed of DA Office, East County Major Crime’s Team and other local, state and federal agencies are involved in this case. The numbers varies daily, based on investigative needs.

Underhill comment only BBM

So does that mean that there is more than one DA in charge of this case? I don't know how Oregon law/courts work, so I'm asking. Do they rotate, if that is so, in terms of what each DA is in charge of? Is it a team approach vs. one DA that's the overall head of things? Around here, only one DA is in charge of a case at a time, he/she does all the public/press stuff, and we very often have multiple agencies involved (including Indian LE agencies), but this isn't Oregon. So I'm confused.

 

[grandmaj]

I'm not sure Kat. Maybe a lawyer could chime in here. My guess is each in their respective divisions would oversee that part of the investigation. I guess I always thought that with major cases like this it is viewed from many different angles to meet somewhere in the middle with a theory. KWIM?

 

[nonfictionrocks]

Thank you, Calliope, so very much. That was a very kind thing to post, and means so much to me. And yes, my thanks to you and everyone who's posted here.:dance:

I am jumping in quickly to say thanks Kat010, IMO this is a great topic for discussion and thanks to all who have posted their ideas!

 

[i.b.nora]

We know that the District Attorney's Office was involved almost immediately.

In an OregonLive article on July 9:

"Multnomah County District Attorney Michael Schrunk and Sheriff Dan Staton will ask the county board of commissioners for additional money to help support the ongoing investigation into the June 4 disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Horman."

and

""We're going to do whatever is necessary to get this thing wrapped up, but it's not without costs to other parts of the office," Schrunk said Friday. "It's an extraordinary case, and unless lightning strikes, were going to be in for a long haul."

Six prosecutors, from chief deputy district attorneys Rod Underhill and Norm Frink to trial-level prosecutors Kevin Demer and Heidi Moawad, as well as three investigators who operate out of the district attorney's office have worked on the case. Moawad and Demer were brought in to do computer analysis, and Charlene Woods, a senior deputy district attorney who handles child abuse cases, also assisted."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/district_attorney_and_sheriff.html

 

[eyes4crime]

We know that the District Attorney's Office was involved almost immediately.

In an OregonLive article on July 9:

"Multnomah County District Attorney Michael Schrunk and Sheriff Dan Staton will ask the county board of commissioners for additional money to help support the ongoing investigation into the June 4 disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Horman."

and

""We're going to do whatever is necessary to get this thing wrapped up, but it's not without costs to other parts of the office," Schrunk said Friday. "It's an extraordinary case, and unless lightning strikes, were going to be in for a long haul."

Six prosecutors, from chief deputy district attorneys Rod Underhill and Norm Frink to trial-level prosecutors Kevin Demer and Heidi Moawad, as well as three investigators who operate out of the district attorney's office have worked on the case. Moawad and Demer were brought in to do computer analysis, and Charlene Woods, a senior deputy district attorney who handles child abuse cases, also assisted."

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/district_attorney_and_sheriff.html

thanks for this information! Are we to assume that Multnomah County District Attorney Michael Schrunk and six other attorneys are working in tandom on this case? Is it the usual for 7 DA's to be involved in a high profile case or is one of the seven steering the direction this case takes. I honestly don't know how it works 'cause the other cases I've followed here on WS have continuity with one DA...at least that's what I've always thought. moo

 

[i.b.nora]

I have been doing some further 'investigation', trying to pinpoint the problem of why the case seems to be going nowhere. (And to me, it has seemed that way for a couple of months.)

I have found the definitive article, the information that reveals to me the truth of it all. I understand now why it is being run as if it were a top secret operation.

Make no mistake, Mike Schrunk is running the entire investigation. Underhill and Frink are just [yes men], hoping that Schrunk will retire before they do so that they might get to run for District Attorney. Based on this article, I doubt their dreams will be realized.

Schrunk appears to wield alot of power. Alot! Power over judges; over his assistant DAs, of course; over the police; the sheriffs; as nearly as I can tell he is probably the single most powerful person in all of Multnomah County.

So... if I was in charge, he would be forced to retire. The DAs office would get out of the investigation business, and some real detectives would be brought in to try to pick up the pieces and solve this case. And, much of the secrecy would have to go.

Here is the article:

Influential Multnomah County prosecutor guards his privacy

 

[craftybatchy]

I have been doing some further 'investigation', trying to pinpoint the problem of why the case seems to be going nowhere. (And to me, it has seemed that way for a couple of months.)

I have found the definitive article, the information that reveals to me the truth of it all. I understand now why it is being run as if it were a top secret operation.

Make no mistake, Mike Schrunk is running the entire investigation. Underhill and Frink are just [yes men], hoping that Schrunk will retire before they do so that they might get to run for District Attorney. Based on this article, I doubt their dreams will be realized.

Schrunk appears to wield alot of power. Alot! Power over judges; over his assistant DAs, of course; over the police; the sheriffs; as nearly as I can tell he is probably the single most powerful person in all of Multnomah County.

So... if I was in charge, he would be forced to retire. The DAs office would get out of the investigation business, and some real detectives would be brought in to try to pick up the pieces and solve this case. And, much of the secrecy would have to go.

Here is the article:

Influential Multnomah County prosecutor guards his privacy

Ay dios mio.

How many times have we said this feels like a stage production but no one seems to know who the director is, what strings are being pulled, and why ?

One for the lawyers .... Can an acting DA be removed from a case and would the next step likely be the appointment of a Special Prosecutor with no local ties ?

 

[Jade2010]

First thing I would do is send Dexter over to Terri's. I would then call Terri and tell her she has an hour to call me and tell me what happened to Kryon. During that hour, Dexter will be instructed to polish his 'instruments' in front of Terri and quietly hum without ever looking at her or answering any questions. Then after that hour and Terri hasn't called I will tell Dexter thank you but your services aren't needed. Then I would give him all the information I had on Ned Kelley as a consolation and a way to get his 'need' filled.

Then I would hold a press conference stating Terri has been ruled out.

I would then question the father of the Kyron and find out if he had been having an affair or had pissed anyone off that might have wanted to hurt Kyron.

I would then get photos of each and every single person at that school on that day (and that week) - teachers, assistants, substitutes, helpers, aides, janitors, groundskeepers, cafeteria workers, principals, parents, trash truck drivers, EVERYONE and place them on a huge wall. Then I would rule each one out one by one.

Then I would start interviewing landscapers and landscapers' acquaintances (well truthfully I would start here before the photo wall) and at that time maybe engage Dexter for his services again.

Wishful thinking.

 

[tragco]

Being a believer in Occams Razor, I believe that little boy is buried somewhere within a dozen miles of the school and he was dead on day one. If I were in charge I would coordinate continuous searches - grid by grid starting at the school and working outward. I would use dogs, psychics, volunteers from service organizations, boy scouts, seniors with time on their hands, housewives, hikers, gardeners, anyone available and willing to search for disturbed ground or other signs. It would all be well organized and coordinated from my desk and everything documented on a master map or grid. Every square foot would be checked on an ever-widening area.

I was going to say the exact same thing, believing when I was in charge I would know everything about the case so far. To indict, I want to make sure Kyron is found. I forgot my math! GrannieDhu is right. 450 square miles! That's a lot.

So maybe search within this radius but only wooded areas, areas that are within a 5 minute walk of every road in that diameter? Bring in those airplanes with the equipment to see if the ground has been disturbed recently (expensive)?

Definitely have an excellent investigator question every registered SO nearby, and jot down those who seemed sketchy or odd for future reference and further research.

I bet I would be surprised when people started coming into my office: We do not have the manpower to do both this and keep our streets safe. We don't have the money to do this unless you want (insert whatever very important govt function here) to stop. I would last about 2 days and then hire the very best LE leader I could find to take my place.