If AT would have dropped the gun in plain sight of the officer, he would likely still be alive today. Instead, he tried to hide it behind his body and sneakily toss it behind the fence in hopes that the office never realized he had it. Unfortunately the officer DID see it in his hand (you can clearly see it in the slow motion video posted earlier in this thread) but did NOT see him toss it behind the fence. When AT quickly turns and raises his "empty" hands just a fraction of a second after tossing it, the officer is forced to assume AT still has the weapon & is turning towards him. This is a clean shoot IMO.
IL - Adam Toledo, 13, shot and killed by Chicago police officer, 29 Mar 2021
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EGirl
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They're hard to 'weed out' when every time an officer has to use force, they are immediately labeled racist, aggressive, etc. IN this thread this officer is being called a murderer. Nonsense.
Gibbo214
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Yes. I am asking that.
Gibbo214
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Coming from far right activist Andy Ngo.
kittythehare
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In fairness there is no evidence to suggest this officer was any of the above.
He did everything he possibly could do, and even more when he realised he had shot the child.
His angst and his grief cannot be denied here.
The emotion and actions he displayed is not consistent with your description. His heart broke in front of us . We heard his words and we saw his actions, trying to plug a bleeding chest wound is no mean feat, yet he did it, heroically.
However there are policies in place for using a weapon.
Only time and analysis will tell whether he observed them to the best of his ability or not.
I'm disturbed at the talk that he was out too late, I think it verges on victim blaming.
The fact is that he was out late but the lateness didn't kill him.
There's no winners in this one, there are no two sides either.
It's just a horrible and utterly tragic event that left a child dead and a broken officer/man/human.
Gibbo214
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Social media claim all kinds of things.
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kittythehare
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I'm so surprised that dude still has a Twitter a/c.
EGirl
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Why?
tlcya
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I am personally not a fan of the activist in question. Which is why I didn't link to his tweets. He is not MSM in my book. However things get muddy when MSM source their info from non MSM and social media. in recent years MSM is sort of a misnomer for all news sources because of this (JMO)
The possibility of gang involvement seems more likely to me because of the article linked below and if there was gang involvement as I said upthread it makes me incredibly sad. Kids have a harder and harder time just being allowed to be kids nowadays.
Gang members ‘instructed’ to shoot at police vehicles after Adam Toledo shooting, cops warned
Chicago police leaders have issued an “officer safety alert” to cops warning that the department’s narcotics unit has learned that factions of the Latin Kings in the Ogden patrol district on the Southwest Side “were instructed by ranking members to shoot at unmarked Chicago police vehicles.”
The alert, sent out Thursday, said factions of the gang planned to retaliate following the fatal police shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo at about 2 a.m. March 29 in an alley in the 2400 block of South Sawyer Avenue.
The possibility of gang involvement seems more likely to me because of the article linked below and if there was gang involvement as I said upthread it makes me incredibly sad. Kids have a harder and harder time just being allowed to be kids nowadays.
Gang members ‘instructed’ to shoot at police vehicles after Adam Toledo shooting, cops warned
Chicago police leaders have issued an “officer safety alert” to cops warning that the department’s narcotics unit has learned that factions of the Latin Kings in the Ogden patrol district on the Southwest Side “were instructed by ranking members to shoot at unmarked Chicago police vehicles.”
The alert, sent out Thursday, said factions of the gang planned to retaliate following the fatal police shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo at about 2 a.m. March 29 in an alley in the 2400 block of South Sawyer Avenue.
kittythehare
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I was gobsmacked they linked to his tweets, The article, I mean and the publication.
kittythehare
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Reasonable & Just
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Thank you, @imstilla.grandma. I feel for that family and for the officer who immediately tried to save this child's life after a split-second decision. This wasn't some bully picking on a civilian at a traffic stop. The officer was putting his life on the line running down a dark alley after shots were fired. Maybe there's more that will come out about whether chasing Adam was the right procedure, but sometimes the unthinkable is the only option.
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Reason for LEOs on Site, Chasing?
Because first, oversimplified a bit: Shot Spotter, a private security co. w contracts w various LE forces, detected gun fire ~ 2400 block of S. Sawyer, alerted CPD dispatch, which sent patrol to area to investigate.*
Then next:
"Police involved shooting following a Shot Spotter alert in the 2400 blk of S. Sawyer
@ChicagoCAPS10
Firearm recovered on scene. #ChicagoPolice
"Officers observed two subjects in a nearby alley, one subject fled on foot which resulted in an armed confrontation. One subject shot and killed. 2nd subject in custody. Gun recovered on scene. COPA investigating." bbm
_______________________________________
* "Real Time Gunfire Analysis and Alert Services. After an explosive (or impulsive) sound triggers enough ShotSpotter sensors that an incident is detected and located, audio from the incident is sent to the ShotSpotter Incident Review Center via secure, high-speed network connections for real-time qualification. Within seconds, a ShotSpotter professional reviewer analyzes audio data and recordings to confirm gunfire or explosions. The qualified alert is then sent directly to the dispatch center, PSAP, mobile/patrol officers and any other relevant safety or security personnel..." bbm Community Gunfire Alert Service | Active Shooting Detection, Analytics and Notification Services - ShotSpotter Much more at the co. website.
** https://twitter.com/TomAhernCPD/status/1377735530213937160. Mar 29.
Briefly, from Shot Spotter alert, appears LEOs sent to investigate already knew they were looking for someone who had fired gun.
Because first, oversimplified a bit: Shot Spotter, a private security co. w contracts w various LE forces, detected gun fire ~ 2400 block of S. Sawyer, alerted CPD dispatch, which sent patrol to area to investigate.*
Then next:
"Police involved shooting following a Shot Spotter alert in the 2400 blk of S. Sawyer
@ChicagoCAPS10
Firearm recovered on scene. #ChicagoPolice
"Officers observed two subjects in a nearby alley, one subject fled on foot which resulted in an armed confrontation. One subject shot and killed. 2nd subject in custody. Gun recovered on scene. COPA investigating." bbm
_______________________________________
* "Real Time Gunfire Analysis and Alert Services. After an explosive (or impulsive) sound triggers enough ShotSpotter sensors that an incident is detected and located, audio from the incident is sent to the ShotSpotter Incident Review Center via secure, high-speed network connections for real-time qualification. Within seconds, a ShotSpotter professional reviewer analyzes audio data and recordings to confirm gunfire or explosions. The qualified alert is then sent directly to the dispatch center, PSAP, mobile/patrol officers and any other relevant safety or security personnel..." bbm Community Gunfire Alert Service | Active Shooting Detection, Analytics and Notification Services - ShotSpotter Much more at the co. website.
** https://twitter.com/TomAhernCPD/status/1377735530213937160. Mar 29.
Illinois Homicide Statutes
I think someone suggested murder charges against the LEO who shot Toledo. One of these? Personally I don't think either first or second degree charge fits the facts (ETA: at least from what I know thru MSM now).
(720 ILCS 5/9-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 9-1)
"Sec. 9-1. First degree murder;...
(a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
(1) he or she either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
(2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or
(3) he or she is attempting or committing a forcible felony other than second degree murder...."
Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes
(720 ILCS 5/9-2) (from Ch. 38, par. 9-2)
" Sec. 9-2. Second degree murder.
(a) A person commits the offense of second degree murder when he or she commits the offense of first degree murder as defined in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (a) of Section 9-1 of this Code and either of the following mitigating factors are present:
(1) at the time of the killing he or she is acting under a sudden and intense passion resulting from serious provocation by the individual killed or another whom the offender endeavors to kill, but he or she negligently or accidentally causes the death of the individual killed; or
(2) at the time of the killing he or she believes the circumstances to be such that, if they existed, would justify or exonerate the killing under the principles stated in Article 7 of this Code, but his or her belief is unreasonable.
(b) Serious provocation is conduct sufficient to excite an intense passion in a reasonable person provided, however, that an action that does not otherwise constitute serious provocation cannot qualify as serious provocation because of the discovery, knowledge, or disclosure of the victim's sexual orientation as defined in Section 1-103 of the Illinois Human Rights Act."
Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes
I think someone suggested murder charges against the LEO who shot Toledo. One of these? Personally I don't think either first or second degree charge fits the facts (ETA: at least from what I know thru MSM now).
(720 ILCS 5/9-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 9-1)
"Sec. 9-1. First degree murder;...
(a) A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits first degree murder if, in performing the acts which cause the death:
(1) he or she either intends to kill or do great bodily harm to that individual or another, or knows that such acts will cause death to that individual or another; or
(2) he or she knows that such acts create a strong probability of death or great bodily harm to that individual or another; or
(3) he or she is attempting or committing a forcible felony other than second degree murder...."
Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes
(720 ILCS 5/9-2) (from Ch. 38, par. 9-2)
" Sec. 9-2. Second degree murder.
(a) A person commits the offense of second degree murder when he or she commits the offense of first degree murder as defined in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (a) of Section 9-1 of this Code and either of the following mitigating factors are present:
(1) at the time of the killing he or she is acting under a sudden and intense passion resulting from serious provocation by the individual killed or another whom the offender endeavors to kill, but he or she negligently or accidentally causes the death of the individual killed; or
(2) at the time of the killing he or she believes the circumstances to be such that, if they existed, would justify or exonerate the killing under the principles stated in Article 7 of this Code, but his or her belief is unreasonable.
(b) Serious provocation is conduct sufficient to excite an intense passion in a reasonable person provided, however, that an action that does not otherwise constitute serious provocation cannot qualify as serious provocation because of the discovery, knowledge, or disclosure of the victim's sexual orientation as defined in Section 1-103 of the Illinois Human Rights Act."
Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes
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imstilla.grandma
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Police officers killed more than 1,100 people in 2020, according to Mapping Police Violence.
- That averages out to about three police killings each day.
- Nearly 30% of those killed were Black and more than 20% were Hispanic.
The Washington Post's Fatal Force project, which tracks fatal shootings committed by on-duty police officers, reported 1,020 gun deaths at the hands of the police during 2020 and also found that Black people and Hispanic people were shot and killed by officers at a disproportionate rate.
There were only 18 days in 2020 that the police didn't kill somebody, according to police accountability data
Gibbo214
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I still don't get why. The 19 year old was allowed to have a gun, wasn't he?
I still dont get it. Aren't Americans allowed, constitutionally to have guns? Are they not meant to be shot?
Possessing is not the same as discharging. And, depending on one's criminal record, location, & various limitations, no - not every American is allowed to "have guns". There were reports of shots being fired in the area. And I'm pretty sure gunpowder residue was found on their hands.
Additionally, I'm not overly familiar with Chicago's gun laws but I believe the state of Illinois requires residents to hold a Firearm Owners IDentification card (FOID) to possess a firearm as well as a concealed carry permit to carry it (concealed) in public (although even more restrictions apply to exactly where they can carry it even with a permit).
Gibbo214
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Thanks for that info. Non Americans have difficulty understanding the right to bear arms thingo.
@Gibbo214 sbm Just a couple posts upthread, Finlay gave a concise answer on the above. @Finlay TY very much.
My conjecture: the gun recovered in the alley scene was likely a stolen, unregistered handgun. Street gang members & affiliates don't care about complying w gun laws. Or (some/many) other laws.
That said, there are many facets to gun laws, varying in ea state, & each facet may have diff provisions re handguns & long guns. Supplementing Finlay's post, info re State of Illinois gun laws:
Gun laws in Illinois - Wikipedia Check link for specifics of Illinois guns.
In US, before many/most lawful handgun purchases, a prospective buyer must submit name & details for a federal background check, typically thru a Federal Firearms Dealer, and done electronically.
National Instant Criminal Background Check System - Wikipedia
This has info about persons who are 'prohibited' from buying (many/most firearms). Most common disqualifications are, iiuc, felony convictions & having been committed to any mental institution.
Identify Prohibited Persons | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
@Gibbo214 Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_the_United_States Hope this helps.
@Gibbo214 sbm @Finlay made an important distinction re this. To reinforce the point: just because a person in US may lawfully possess a handgun does not mean that he can lawfully shoot any where or any time he pleases.
When Shot Shooter alert - or John Q. Public making 911 call - notifies LE of gunfire at X00 block of Main Street, LE investigates to determine the nature of the shooting, whether it was a car backfiring, a birthday celebration, or a homicide, suicide, or accident. my2ct.