GUILTY IL - Laquan McDonald, 17, fatally shot, Chicago PD charged, 20 Oct 2014 -J. VanDyke GUILTY*

[kimlynn]

While I understand what you are saying I have to point out one thing. For a group that claims to live in "constant fear" of the police why in the heck wouldn't they do more to AVOID interactions with police? Specifically avoid breaking the law in obvious ways that would attract police attention? Instead the group that claims to fear the police the most has the highest rate of criminal activity which attracts police attention including rampant public drug use, traffic violations, along with a host of more serious crimes.

I have a fear of spiders, as such I do everything possible to AVOID spider encounters, when I know I am in areas with a lot of spider activity I am especially vigilant and take steps to prevent walking into webs etc...

If the group truly does fear the police they would have a two prong approach 1) Educating their community in order to avoid police encounters by following the law and 2) Work to get bad cops off the force.

So don't walk,run/jog, or drive while black.
I think now we have the answer of why 'they' run away from the police. IMO
And white people also break laws which should go without saying.

 

[bluesneakers]

Growing up, I was very naive to think that we were past a lot of the racial tensions that had plagued our Country years before I was even born. Very naive. I grew up with family and friends from all walks of life. Different races, cultures, religions, etc... I am very grateful for the life I had growing up.

We also didn't have the technology we have today. I am sure if we did, we would be seeing the same things going on today. This all didn't just start happening. It's been here all along and we sadly haven't progressed that much, have we? What will "our" generations History books say about us? Not much good, will it?

It really makes me sad. Sad for our future generations.

RIP Laquan.

I think a lot if it has been here all along but as conditions (poverty and education mainly) get worse things get worse for everyone.

It's been 25 years since Rodney King and yet we're still seeing videos of police brutalizing people of color. I've also noticed racist rhetoric has increased steadily over the last 7 or 8 years. It's like once it takes a foothold and once people start voicing their prejudices and denying their privilege more people see it's safe to be out in the open with their feelings.

JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

So don't walk,run/jog, or drive while black.
I think now we have the answer of why 'they' run away from the police. IMO
And white people also break laws which should go without saying.

Some groups don't have to fear the police as much as other groups.

JMO

 

[kimlynn]

Some groups don't have to fear the police as much as other groups.

JMO

True, and the fear isn't always due to being guilty of a crime. IMO

 

[kimlynn]

I watched the news video linked in the first post and heard the newsperson state that Laquan was shot 16 times in the back. That was a LIE. If you look at the drawings with the autopsy, he was NOT shot 16 times in the back. The wounds are marked on the ME's sketch as to whether they were incoming or exit wounds. Not all the shots were from the back. Typical newscaster razzamatazz. Mainstream media at its best. (Yep, law enforcement at its best, too ... not!)

So very sad.

In a perfect world, that young person would not have been shot 16 times, or at all. In a perfect world, that young person would not have been breaking into cars, had a knife in his hand, or had PCP in his system. LE would not have been necessary. They would not have been called, would they? And none of this would have happened.

jmo

None of this should have happened because you can't shoot a person for breaking into a car (after the fact) or having drugs in their system. As for the pocket knife...the video didn't show that he used in any way that could be viewed as a threat. IMO

 

[kimlynn]

This year, there could be 1000 civilians killed by police officers. Many of them are unarmed, or effectively unarmed, or under-armed. Many of them are mentally ill. Many are youths, many are innocent.

And it's not just homicide here -- there are all sorts of problems with LEOs who abuse their authority with sexual assaults, physical assaults, financial crimes, and so forth. I agree that they should be held to a higher standard, especially if they (or we) believe that they deserve the respect of the public that pays their salaries.

All of that being said, I would submit to the ownership and management of Websleuths that it is high time to have a sub-forum for crimes and incidents related to LEOs. The volume is certainly enough to justify it -- far more people are killed or assaulted or robbed by LEOs than are killed by serial killers each year. And we only hear about a fraction of them.

Bad LEOs seem to be more and more common -- I think that there is a problem with how many officers and agencies understand their mandate and their powers. And bad LEOs, and bad departments, make the job a lot harder for the good ones. So I think that turning a blind eye to this growing problem does not do the good LEOs any favors.

I agree and to even it out we could have a section with cops doing good deeds. I enjoy the feel good/heartwarming stories as well. IMO

 

[Montjoy]

I have a fear of spiders, as such I do everything possible to AVOID spider encounters, when I know I am in areas with a lot of spider activity I am especially vigilant and take steps to prevent walking into webs etc...

rsbm

I think that the comparison with spiders is of very limited value.
-- people don't pay the salaries of spiders to protect them
-- spiders don't profile people; they aren't racist; they don't discriminate
-- spiders can be dangerous, but they don't kill out of malice
-- spiders do not have legal powers over ordinary people
-- spiders can be stepped on and killed if they are a problem
-- people don't have to count on spiders to protect them or to seek justice
-- spiders do not abuse their powers, and have never been found to be corrupt

If the group truly does fear the police they would have a two prong approach 1) Educating their community in order to avoid police encounters by following the law and 2) Work to get bad cops off the force.

Regarding your first point -- when you say "their community", don't you mean "the community"? It's certainly not only black people who are abused by the police, and it's not only black people that break the law. And do you think that anyone needs to be educated about how not breaking the law helps avoid police encounters? The thing is, it really doesn't -- the police have been shown statistically to harass and arrest black people without cause at a far higher rate than white people. They even make it sound scientific by calling it profiling, rather than calling it discrimination.

Regarding your second point -- I agree, though the government and police shares much of the responsibility for getting rid of bad cops. But the thing is, many people protest police departments specifically to get rid of bad cops....and they end up drawing the hatred of many people. Protesters are demonized, labeled as criminals, shot at by people, assaulted by the police, for exercising their first amendment rights, and for trying to get rid of bad cops.

 

[fizzypop]

None of this should have happened because you can't shoot a person for breaking into a car (after the fact) or having drugs in their system. As for the pocket knife...the video didn't show that he used in any way that could be viewed as a threat. IMO

It looked bigger than a pocket knife and he was stalking down the street with a knife out and an obvious attitude, and he didn't follow orders to drop the weapon. He looked threatening (not to the officers, but in general) to me, the way he was walking, knife out, obviously with an attitude. Not saying he should have been shot for that but it's not as simple as some people are making it sound. He wasn't just walking down the sidewalk with a knife in his pocket. He was running in the middle of the street, knife out, after leaving the scene of a crime, and then didn't listen to officers telling him to put the knife down.

I understand the intent of BLM but I don't agree with them at all. First of all only .05% of black people who are killed are killed by police officers. 2nd, more white people are actually shot by officers than black people. They are focusing on the wrong things, and going about it the wrong way and they are just making people more against them. In theory I agree that something needs to be done with how black people are treated in this society but this particular point of it (officer shootings) is the tippy top of the iceberg. The vast majority of people (black or white or whatever) who are shot by the cops are because of something they did. Not saying there are times they shouldn't be but when BLM isn't even going to wait for facts and have a knee jerk reaction to any shooting and react with violence they are alienating a lot of people.

 

[Sonya610]

Regarding your first point -- when you say "their community", don't you mean "the community"? It's certainly not only black people who are abused by the police, and it's not only black people that break the law.

True but only black people have an organization getting nationwide attention for "Black Lives". Not sure how anyone can say "Well it isn't about black people, it is about everyone" when clearly that is NOT THE CASE!

Not only black people break the law, but the crime stats are pretty darn clear regarding the frequency of law breaking in some communities. If you don't want to interact with the police then not breaking the law is the BEST FIRST STEP.

I don't want to interact with the police either, I avoid them by doing simple things like driving the speed limit and obeying the law! The subject of this story wasn't targeted by the police because he was black, but because he was breaking into cars on the street while out of his mind on PCP. That is a good example of what NOT to do if you want to avoid interacting with the police!

 

[Woodland]

Case in point. Jmo.

 

[fizzypop]

I don't think LE in general is what is causing the problem. There may be some element to it but I'd say the justice system is more at fault, they are the ones who are sentencing black people to longer terms for the same crimes than white people who did the same thing.

At the same time, there are all sorts of personal responsibility that come into this. Things that need to be solved on a societal level. This all has actually prompted me to look into looking for places to volunteer that try and do things to mentor kids in notoriously bad neighborhoods and help them to get on the right track for themselves and trying to do things to improve the neighborhoods they live in. Broken windows theory. Another thing I know is that officers have discretion on when to arrest someone (in certain instances) and when someone gives them an attitude that can instantly change from just getting a warning or talking to and being arrested. I commend those who have posted videos on SM just telling people to be respectful and don't get an attitude when you're stopped or automatically assume it's a race thing and that will bring you far. Also then if you do that and something does happen you don't have that gray area where people could defend LE's actions. If one acts completely respectfully and does what an officer says then is mis-treated it will greatly increase the amount of people who will come out in support of discipline for that officer. Right now in most of these cases the person who was shot was doing something that gives people pause, and it's causing a huge rift.

I will admit that sometimes I feel that the whole thing is too big of a problem to solve. The way things are going now it's just a bad cycle where BLM is protesting things, getting violent and and not looking at or waiting for actual facts, as well as going by supposed eyewitness testimony that is showing to have been lies, and those who don't support the group just think less of them and the people they are supporting and nothing is ever going to get better, only worse.

 

[bluesneakers]

I don't think LE in general is what is causing the problem.

JMO but I think LE killing and brutalizing civilians - no matter if they are unarmed, mentally ill, innocent, or under the age of 18 - is 100% on them. Especially the coverup that inevitably comes later. No one made them hide this video for a year. Cops shoot, kill, look away, pretend nothing happened. And then they get support from the public. That's the problem.

 

[Sonya610]

I don't think LE in general is what is causing the problem. There may be some element to it but I'd say the justice system is more at fault, they are the ones who are sentencing black people to longer terms for the same crimes than white people who did the same thing.

Please cite your source, and please make sure it is a LEGIT source that factors in prior criminal history. Career criminals with a lengthy rap sheet nearly ALWAYS get longer sentences than first time offenders, if criminal history is not factored into to the sentences then the comparison is apples and oranges.

 

[Woodland]

Interesting response fizzypop and Sonya 610 - neither has an iota of solution imo.

Demanding someone produce a source for an opinion is well, uppity? Demanding? Unhelpful? White?

The difference in opinion is the core problem - no middle ground with the wide expanse of the US?

 

[bluesneakers]

Please cite your source, and please make sure it is a LEGIT source that factors in prior criminal history. Career criminals with a lengthy rap sheet nearly ALWAYS get longer sentences than first time offenders, if criminal history is not factored into to the sentences then the comparison is apples and oranges.

Racial Gap in Men's Sentencing

Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found.

In the two years after the Booker ruling, sentences of blacks were on average 15.2% longer than the sentences of similarly situated whites, according to the Sentencing Commission report. Between December 2007 and September 2011, the most recent period covered in the report, sentences of black males were 19.5% longer than those for whites. The analysis also found that black males were 25% less likely than whites in the same period to receive a sentence below the guidelines' range.

In the new study, the Sentencing Commission conducted a separate analysis that excluded sentences of probation. It yielded the same pattern, but the racial disparity was less pronounced. Sentences of black males were 14.5% longer than whites, rather than nearly 20%.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324432004578304463789858002

 

[Cubby]

I agree and to even it out we could have a section with cops doing good deeds. I enjoy the feel good/heartwarming stories as well. IMO

We already have that in the news that makes you smile forum. The positive police stories don't get too much attention.

While I can see the interest in these types of subforums, to remain balanced we really shouldn't single out any individual group. The current Crimes in the News title doesn't single out any individual grotoup and it should remain that way. If we single out any one group, why not single them all out? It would create a moderating nightmare here at WS.

 

[Cubby]

It looked bigger than a pocket knife and he was stalking down the street with a knife out and an obvious attitude, and he didn't follow orders to drop the weapon. He looked threatening (not to the officers, but in general) to me, the way he was walking, knife out, obviously with an attitude. Not saying he should have been shot for that but it's not as simple as some people are making it sound. He wasn't just walking down the sidewalk with a knife in his pocket. He was running in the middle of the street, knife out, after leaving the scene of a crime, and then didn't listen to officers telling him to put the knife down.

I understand the intent of BLM but I don't agree with them at all. First of all only .05% of black people who are killed are killed by police officers. 2nd, more white people are actually shot by officers than black people. They are focusing on the wrong things, and going about it the wrong way and they are just making people more against them. In theory I agree that something needs to be done with how black people are treated in this society but this particular point of it (officer shootings) is the tippy top of the iceberg. The vast majority of people (black or white or whatever) who are shot by the cops are because of something they did. Not saying th4ere are times they shouldn't be but when BLM isn't even going to wait for facts and have a knee jerk reaction to any shooting and react with violence they are alienating a lot of people.

I fully agree with your second paragraph.

Regarding the first paragraph,, maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't see anything threatening about his gait. He appears to be walking confidently and with a purpose, imo.

As far as Van Dykes background. I hadn't planned on mentioning this but will. His upbringing in Burr Ridge and Hinsdale are two very very expensive areas to live. In general, and I know this is a stereotype, but these are areas I would consider more likely to come out with the white privilege attitude. I couldn't imagine the background and lifestyle Van Dyke came from to be more opposite of the areas he was working in. Based on these murder charges and his history of misconduct complaints, I have to wonder if a pattern exists among officers who are the bad apples.

I can really see how these two worlds, where Van Dyke was raised and where he worked as being like oil and water. It makes me go hmmmm.

 

[kimlynn]

It looked bigger than a pocket knife and he was stalking down the street with a knife out and an obvious attitude, and he didn't follow orders to drop the weapon. He looked threatening (not to the officers, but in general) to me, the way he was walking, knife out, obviously with an attitude. Not saying he should have been shot for that but it's not as simple as some people are making it sound. He wasn't just walking down the sidewalk with a knife in his pocket. He was running in the middle of the street, knife out, after leaving the scene of a crime, and then didn't listen to officers telling him to put the knife down.

I understand the intent of BLM but I don't agree with them at all. First of all only .05% of black people who are killed are killed by police officers. 2nd, more white people are actually shot by officers than black people. They are focusing on the wrong things, and going about it the wrong way and they are just making people more against them. In theory I agree that something needs to be done with how black people are treated in this society but this particular point of it (officer shootings) is the tippy top of the iceberg. The vast majority of people (black or white or whatever) who are shot by the cops are because of something they did. Not saying there are times they shouldn't be but when BLM isn't even going to wait for facts and have a knee jerk reaction to any shooting and react with violence they are alienating a lot of people.

I don't think it should be a competition as to what race is suffering more at the hand of LE. Regarding the stats more whites than blacks ...it depends on where you look for your info. IMO
If this young man hadn't been shot down he would more than likely be on probation for his sins,but sadly that wasn't an option for him.
I think at this point we should be discussing the person actually charged with a crime and that isn't this youth.

 

[bluesneakers]

I fully agree with your second paragraph.

Regarding the first paragraph,, maybe it's a regional thing, but I don't see anything threatening about his gait. He appears to be walking confidently and with a purpose, imo.

As far as Van Dykes background. I hadn't planned on mentioning this but will. His upbringing in Burr Ridge and Hinsdale are two very very expensive areas to live. In general, and I know this is a stereotype, but these are areas I would consider more likely to come out with the white privilege attitude. I couldn't imagine the background and lifestyle Van Dyke came from to be more opposite of the areas he was working in. Based on these murder charges and his history of misconduct complaints, I have to wonder if a pattern exists among officers who are the bad apples.

I can really see how these two worlds, where Van Dyke was raised and where he worked as being like oil and water. It makes me go hmmmm.

So where he was working was in a way foreign to him? I wonder how that would affect his ability to see the people where he worked as different from him, and how that might affect his treatment of them.

 

[kimlynn]

We already have that in the news that makes you smile forum. The positive police stories don't get too much attention.

While I can see the interest in these types of subforums, to remain balanced we really shouldn't single out any individual group. The current Crimes in the News title doesn't single out any individual grotoup and it should remain that way. If we single out any one group, why not single them all out? It would create a moderating nightmare here at WS.

I have read a few of those positive stories and thought about posting a positive comment in a few but after seeing a few jeers about members not responding I thought I wouldn't be taken seriously. I do appreciate the positive side of policing.
I think with so many stories of late it would be worthwhile to have a section dedicated to the subject of LE wrongdoing but I understand that some would have a problem with that and agree it may be difficult for the mods. IMO