IL IL - Timmothy Fry-Pitzen, 6, Aurora, 13 May 2011 - mom found dead - #1

[StinkSprings]

Disposing of the I-Pass monitor is also a curious event. Are there any Freeways over on that side of Illinois that she would not want to be detected on?

 

[MotherOcean]

I still think of Timmothy. This is such a mystery. I hope someone is still looking for him.

 

[RubyTuesday1]

I've always wondered about the Amish adoption possibility since initially following this story. I am sure the detective has followed up on that. If he's as dedicated to the case as the stories suggest, he's probably followed up on everything.

It does give me hope that he believes Tim is alive. He knows more details including the amount of blood found in the car (worrying for me) and still feels good for Tim.

I'm friends with Pitzen family members on facebook and do also get the sense that they are somewhat removed from this story. But we all deal in our own ways. I'd be much more of a hot mess.

I initially came back to check on the thread because of the revelation that the cell phone had been found. I think that's fascinsting. It was found on the side of the road presumably where Amy made those last phone calls with Tim before going off grid? So that tells us why there were no more cell pings.

Again there wouldn't be any outgoing calls to an Amish community as they don't have phones, or access to news. If she said her son was being abused and gave consent to adopt would they take him in?

Not necessarily true, depends on the community of Amish. Some communities have public telephones for all to use, some communities allow telephones in businesses owned by Amish; sometimes they have certain phone times to be called on public phones. This practice is allowed in a sect right here in Arthur, IL. Phones are generally not allowed inside of homes. The ideation behind it is that the Amish can use the telephone to conduct necessary business with the world outside their community but not have private conversation away from where their community might overhear, because it can lead to separation or removal from that community if their business/private life is kept separate from the community. Being an integral part of the community is important to them and being too removed from the community can lead to discord.

 

[RubyTuesday1]

Interesting idea. I don't remember enough about the details of this case, but here is a website with a list of the amish schools in WI and a map of their locations, which should closely approximate amish congregations in the state. http://www.privateschoolreview.com/religiousSelection/typeReli/3/stateid/WI
Amish do often use modern medical care, however.

Also one by Stillman Valley, IL. I have not been there but I do know someone who has. Also, the Villages of Van Buren in Iowa have many, many Amish and Mennonite communities. I mention this because this woman seems to have covered quite a bit of territory, and contrary to popular belief, Amish DO accept rides from others who have vehicles. They could have met anywhere.

I don't want anyone to get the idea that I am out to demonize the Amish; I have had both good and bad dealings with them. Overall I find them to be a friendly if somewhat standoffish group, but then I am not one of them, so they would treat someone outside of their community that way. I am merely offering some of my own experiences here since this topic has been brought up.

 

[RubyTuesday1]

Amy's phone was located along a stretch of hwy 78 in Carroll county back in Oct. 2013. Apparently they were able to 'track' her phone to that location, but it contained no clues. I wish they'd release a bit more in depth details - by 'track' do they mean by way of gps, or sniffer dogs? was the phone in tact? did it appear to be damaged from say, being tossed out a moving car window? how far off the road was it?

I've been scanning earlier posts in search of the map that detailed Amy's route from start to finish - found this one first - kudos to you, wondergirl for putting this together. :tyou:

Stillman Valley is located between 78, where the phone was found, and I-39, which is the main interstate to take toward the Dells. Revisiting the Amish angle without trying to beat it to death here, just because there is an Amish community there does NOT mean that even if the police checked there (I have not read the entire thread, so bear with me here) that those Amish stayed in that place, if they even existed with the boy. Amish do travel around the country and sometimes do resettle if their communities become too large or, like someone has mentioned, their gene pools are not diverse enough to be sustainable. They are like many other people, they don't always just stay where they grew up. They take care of and support their own in many/most cases, so they would not be rooted down to any particular support system other than their own families and communities. Because they are industrious and often own businesses or being tradesmen, they would most likely have the means to relocate.

 

[RubyTuesday1]

I don't think the Amish theory is far-fetched, not at all, not in this case.

-There's a very large Amish community in the Sauk valley,
(in Columbia county, WI - too).
-the toys were dinky, but required no batteries.
-If you weren't specifically looking for a child within their very private communities, you would 'never find him'.

She also graduated from Iowa State. Iowa is LOADED with not only Amish and Mennonite, but also various other religious sects. Not all follow all usual traditions and some do in fact attend schools outside of their communities. She could have had ties there.

 

[RubyTuesday1]

grr, can't work this darn laptop mouse thing to save my life. So can't figure out co-ords. There is an interesting area to me, NW of the Anna R Page Forest Preserve
This addy- 3747 N Meridian Rd
Rockford, IL 61101-9318

go just north of it and turn right on Porter Rd. Go app. 1/2 mile and there is a opening on the right that goes into a field. Can't tell that it is gated. Meander south back down in there. Looks like it might be accessible by a SUV, may not all be mown, doesn't appear to be crops and has several water features.

This area more largely bounded by Meridian Rd, Porter, Kilburn/70, Springfield, and Safford. Actually also see some interesting areas off of Safford between Springfield and Kilburn/70

A sidenote: not all hayfields are cut all the time. Some people only harvest what they need and then let it grow out. They are sometimes not planted very often either, depends on what type of animals are being fed. I have known people to cut from fields not planted in ten years or more, especially for cattle.

 

[RubyTuesday1]

A closing thought for the night: reading what I have read, especially the suicide note, I personally am not convinced this child is dead. The question of why the toys, why the trips, etc...besides wanting her son to have a good time and good memories of her, if...and I say IF...she did in fact use the Amish connection that has been discussed, she may have wanted to imprint memories he would remember of his former life on him before leaving him. Amish have a tradition called Rumspringa, which is a coming-of-age time in their teens where they have to choose if they will stay within their community or leave to go out into the world at large. They often go on trips to explore the outside world and are allowed to experience things they normally would not to help them make their choice. Most choose to stay, but some do not. The resorts mentioned might be fun places to go on Rumspringa. She may have wanted to imprint him with those memories so that when that time would come, he would recall more and have better knowledge on which to base his choice...seek out his blood family, or stay with his new one? Or she may merely have wanted him to experience those childhood fun things before he went somewhere where they do not go to those places.

It may be a farfetched hypothesis, but stranger things have happened.

 

[mikkismom]

‘You’ll Never Find Him’: Four Years After Mother’s Suicide, Search for Missing Son Continues

http://ktla.com/2015/08/28/youll-ne...ers-suicide-search-for-missing-son-continues/

 

[gitana1]

I just watched this on The Hunt. Suicidal parents are a huge danger to their kids. I am convinced this woman never would've handed her child off to someone else to raise, taking him from his home, father, grandmother, etc., before killing herself.

Mothers who commit suicide often fear leaving their children alone in the world without them. Hence, some murder their kids before killing or intending to kill themselves.

Timmothy's mother fits the "profile" of a suicidal mother who kills her child, almost to a T.

Most mothers (70%) in filicide/suicide cases had prior mental health histories- And in most of them (70% of those who had prior mental health histories), the mental health issue was depression.

School-aged kids were more often killed in suicide/filicide cases and when the murderous parent was the child's mother, the mean age of the victim was 5.8 years of age.

Typically, mothers who committed suicide/filicide had no prior criminal histories, no history of abusing their kids, no history of drug or alcohol abuse and there was no history of domestic violence in the marriage.

The motive of most of the mothers in these cases (90%), was altruism- saving their kids from suffering in a world without them. The parents in these cases tended to "over-love" their children and think of them as extensions of themselves. "Timmothy belongs to me. I can do with him what I want."
http://www.jaapl.org/content/33/4/496.long

This woman clearly took her child on a last hurrah before killing him.

The hand-off theory, especially with an Amish family, indeed is totally far fetched and not the kind of thing suicidal parents tend to do. And is there any evidence she was communicating with anyone shadowy or unknown who might have taken her kid? Or had any dealings with the Amish? They are insular people who do not tend to fraternize with outsiders and want to avoid problems with the government. I can't think of any scenario in which an Amish family would willingly take an English child into their family. Makes zero sense. For what purpose?

No. I think it's pretty obvious that she murdered her child somewhere before killing herself and was too ashamed to admit to that in her letter to her mom.

As a side note, there is a feeling of relief in some of the suicidal parents who kill themselves and it can be so strong that some do not carry through with the final step of killing themselves.

 

[RubyTuesday1]

‘You’ll Never Find Him’: Four Years After Mother’s Suicide, Search for Missing Son Continues

http://ktla.com/2015/08/28/youll-ne...ers-suicide-search-for-missing-son-continues/

It should be pointed out that in this article, it mentions people who, if he had been handed off to them, would find out that the child was missed and would return him.

But what if, again following the Amish/other Plain People angle, they do not watch television or read our newspapers? What if they are a family of any kind that could not have children and did not pass muster, for whatever reason, for adopting a child? There are cases of people acquiring children by other means and raising them and passing them off as their own with full knowledge that the children are being looked for.

What sticks out to me is that in the note, the mother tells her mother that he is safe and being well cared for, and that he will never be found. Why would she use that specific wording unless she KNEW it to be true? She could very well have left it be generic, like "he is in a better place now, don't look for him"...instead she said he was being CARED for. If the mother had murdered him, she would have no way of knowing that he would never be found since she then killed herself.

The "why" of the Amish angle has already been mentioned: their gene pool. Adults have a hard time assimilating into the Amish/other Plain People lifestyle, although some do try in an effort to get away from the fast pace of the world at large, but a young child could adjust much more readily. Also, Amish typically try to have large families to have help working the family farm or business...every set of hands is valued, especially boys. Extra hands are needed for the types of manual labor that they do, and would be especially valuable if a father could have no sons to inherit his farm, business or trade.

 

[Prairie01]

Does anyone know if law enforcement ever published a map of Amy's route that day? It would be helpful to know where exactly the phone was found, in order to find the IPass transponder.

 

[trenchmouth]

This is what I think happened to Timmothy. There is still hope he is out there somewhere.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/19/minnesota-girls-reported-missing-in-2013-found-on-farm/

 

[jane_tennison]

I just watched this on The Hunt. Suicidal parents are a huge danger to their kids. I am convinced this woman never would've handed her child off to someone else to raise, taking him from his home, father, grandmother, etc., before killing herself.

Mothers who commit suicide often fear leaving their children alone in the world without them. Hence, some murder their kids before killing or intending to kill themselves.

Timmothy's mother fits the "profile" of a suicidal mother who kills her child, almost to a T.

Most mothers (70%) in filicide/suicide cases had prior mental health histories- And in most of them (70% of those who had prior mental health histories), the mental health issue was depression.

School-aged kids were more often killed in suicide/filicide cases and when the murderous parent was the child's mother, the mean age of the victim was 5.8 years of age.

Typically, mothers who committed suicide/filicide had no prior criminal histories, no history of abusing their kids, no history of drug or alcohol abuse and there was no history of domestic violence in the marriage.

The motive of most of the mothers in these cases (90%), was altruism- saving their kids from suffering in a world without them. The parents in these cases tended to "over-love" their children and think of them as extensions of themselves. "Timmothy belongs to me. I can do with him what I want."
http://www.jaapl.org/content/33/4/496.long

This woman clearly took her child on a last hurrah before killing him.

The hand-off theory, especially with an Amish family, indeed is totally far fetched and not the kind of thing suicidal parents tend to do. And is there any evidence she was communicating with anyone shadowy or unknown who might have taken her kid? Or had any dealings with the Amish? They are insular people who do not tend to fraternize with outsiders and want to avoid problems with the government. I can't think of any scenario in which an Amish family would willingly take an English child into their family. Makes zero sense. For what purpose?

No. I think it's pretty obvious that she murdered her child somewhere before killing herself and was too ashamed to admit to that in her letter to her mom.

As a side note, there is a feeling of relief in some of the suicidal parents who kill themselves and it can be so strong that some do not carry through with the final step of killing themselves.

Interesting analysis

 

[Wanting2Help]

Amy’s biggest fear, according to her family and friends, was that a judge would take her son away because of her mental health issues.

http://ktla.com/2015/08/28/youll-never-find-him-four-years-after-mothers-suicide-search-for-missing-son-continues/

IF this was truly her biggest fear, I can't see her willingly leaving him with someone else to take care of if she planned suicide.

I've never understood though why people think she would hide his body if she murdered him.

 

[giagreen]

http://ktla.com/2015/08/28/youll-never-find-him-four-years-after-mothers-suicide-search-for-missing-son-continues/

IF this was truly her biggest fear, I can't see her willingly leaving him with someone else to take care of if she planned suicide.

I've never understood though why people think she would hide his body if she murdered him.

I've always felt that she hide his body so her family wouldnt know what she did and believe she gave him away.

 

[Quiet Time]

And still didn't want her husband to have him. ^^^
Dead or alive.

 

[Trvl4Lyfe]

Just saw this on 20/20 on ID, very sad for this little boy. It reminded me of another story that kind of played out on Nancy Grace show. The mom was Asian and I believe she ended up killing herself, but not sure if her son was ever found or what the outcome was. I know the dad was on NG show a lot while they were searching for his son.

 

[burke_dennings]

Just saw this on 20/20 on ID, very sad for this little boy. It reminded me of another story that kind of played out on Nancy Grace show. The mom was Asian and I believe she ended up killing herself, but not sure if her son was ever found or what the outcome was. I know the dad was on NG show a lot while they were searching for his son.

That was Trenton Duckett. He remains missing to this day.

http://www.411gina.org/cases/ducketttrentonjohn.htm

 

[Trvl4Lyfe]

That was Trenton Duckett. He remains missing to this day.

http://www.411gina.org/cases/ducketttrentonjohn.htm

Thank you for that. That is definitely who I was referring to. Another very sad story.