I'm lost

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Turnadot, Apr 7, 2011.

  1. Turnadot

    Turnadot New Member

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    After I saw a post from SuperDave in the Caylee forum, comparing JonBenet's case, I decided to pop over here.

    I don't know very much about the Jonbenet case at all. When it happened in 96' I barely spoke English, but I remember seeing tidbits on the news, JonBenet dressed up, makeup - and some talk about how LE fumbled the case.

    I tried to read here, but I'm dizzy from the information.

    Where can I go to read the facts of this case? Where should I start?

    Thank you lots.
     
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  3. Toltec

    Toltec New Member

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    Click on Ramsey Links and Sources: Go to A CandyRose link:

    Click on Patsy Ramsey Interrogation April 1997 and you'll get the entire story according to Patsy.
     
  4. Turnadot

    Turnadot New Member

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    Oh wow...the CandyRose link has the 911 call and everything!

    Thank you so very much, Toltec.

    Hmm, well, the 911 is interesting.

    The ransom note is a novella. Sheesh.

    Thanks again for the great link.
     
  5. scout35

    scout35 New Member

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    Turnadot -

    I'm "new" to the JonBenet case as well. I was in high school when this happened so I didn't pay too much attention to it.

    I'm glad you started this thread and I hope we get some more help with this!

    Thank you!
     
  6. Turnadot

    Turnadot New Member

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    I've read the ransom note over a dozen times and I can't get over it. It's just too much, literally. What kidnapper writes out a three page ransom note like that, and asked for an exact sum? Not saying a kidnapper couldn't have, I don't know, but it just seems so odd to me, and the phrasing. I don't really know what to make of it right now besides: bizarre.

    Also I find it strange their daughter was taken, yet they allow their son to go off with a family friend to stay for a while. Maybe it's just me, but my child would have been joined to my hip that day.

    Still reading and haven't really formed an opinion, but there's something nagging at me about the early days of the investigation, besides the police blundering.
     
  7. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    You may want to read "The Bonita Papers" as well. This is a first draft written by a secretary named Bonita, allegedly, who worked with a lawyer who was consulting with the BPD in the first year or two after the murder. She is said to have had access to many of the case files because of her position; she was taking notes from those files to write a book--allegedly. She sent her nephew a copy of what she'd written, for some reason I'm not clear about, and he sold the info to the tabs without her permission--allegedly. We don't really have many resources to confirm or deny this story, but it would fit with the tabs' early publication of case evidence and info that was fairly accurate, shocking for the tabs especially.

    At any rate, the info in "The Bonita Papers" is informative and much of it confirmed through the years. There are typos, etc., as any first draft will have, and a few of the details ended up not being accurate, we now know, but lots of it is spot on and has info not as well documented in other sources, like the issue of prior molestation and the experts' actual opinions on that. If what Bonita wrote came from the actual case files--and it does appear largely genuine and mostly accurate--it's a profound look at the case early in the investigation.

    You can find a copy of this at Tricia's other forum on the JB case, Forums For Justice: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4502"]The Bonita Papers - Forums For Justice[/ame]

    Also, we've put up some case documents, transcripts, autopsy and crime scene photos there, as well, in a case library, if you would like to check that out. It's not nearly as extensive as that of ACandyRose, of course, but we do have some basic materials that are easy to get to because we don't have so many, like the transcripts of law enforcement interviews with the Ramseys, the transcripts of the depositions of the Ramseys taken during lawsuits, etc. You can find those here: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12"]Ramsey Murder Case Library - Forums For Justice[/ame]



    As far as books for reading materials you might like to check out, ACandyRose has a good list of those. I'd recommend Perfect Murder, Perfect Town and Steve Thomas' book Inside the JonBenet Ramsey Murder Investigation as basic info books that are mostly accurate, though PMPT does have some dated and inaccurate info, which has come to light in the years since.

    Finally, in the public JBR forum, there are some stickies at the top which have some profoundly brilliant case studies and experiments on critical evidence in the case, particularly the ransom note and a model of the Bloomies underwear found on the victim, done by a member who has details and photos that completely lay out the lies Patsy Ramsey told in Atlanta, 2000, during an interview with Boulder investigators about the huge panties. (See my avatar, taken from a photo of the experiment.) You can find that forum and the stickies here: [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6"]Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum - Forums For Justice[/ame]


    The problem you're going to have reading up on this case is that it's been ongoing for 14+ years. Team Ramsey have spun many tales of intruders, faux evidence, and misleading DNA artifact as red herring in that time; the prosecution has been thwarted by the very prosecutors who should have been working for the People, rather than the Ramseys. So the amount of misdirection and smoke and mirrors is astounding and makes the case very difficult to follow at this point. The arrest of John Mark Karr by Mary Lacy is a prime example of how far Team Ramsey would go to exonerate the Ramseys, in spite of all the evidence against them. And have no doubt that Mary Lacy and Alex Hunter, both DAs in this case for the first 12 years of the investigation, are Team Ramsey and have been from Day One, in my opinion.

    What you cannot rely on are TV programs about this case; Michael Tracey, Lou Smit, and Team Ramsey have produced so many of these farces, manufactured so many "stranger intruders" depending on non-evidence through the years, that anyone who believes the public face put on by the Ramseys has a long catalog of intruder suspects to support that. The problem is that none of the evidence they pull out, including that precious "touch" DNA, ever leads to any of these suspects. It's always based on pure speculation, often terribly exploitative of the mentally ill or deceased who cannot defend themselves or sue, and the greatest desire to get a slice of the fame pie while making money defending the well-crafted public image of the JOB Ramseys.

    In reality, the case is ultimately about the ransom note and the prior molestation, in my opinion: look to the autopsy results, which clearly prove the child was being molested before the night she was murdered, and the language and writing of Patsy Ramsey mirrored in the ransom note. Then ask Team Ramsey to explain why Patsy Ramsey would have written a ransom note for an intruder, and how that intruder was able to access and molest the child before that night without anyone noticing, then return to do the same and murder her, as well, while her family slept nearby?

    Add in all the discrepancies in the Ramseys' ever-changing stories, lies to law enforcement investigators they are on the record telling, stonewalling the investigation from the day the body was found, and much more obstruction of the investigation by Team Ramsey, and it's fairly clear what happened to JonBenet Ramsey.

    In the end, this case is as much about the corruption of our justice system as it is about the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. If O.J. Simpson was a wake up call about the problems with jury nullification diverting justice, the Ramseys are the next chapter: how prosecutors can be influenced by money and power to bury even a child murder case.

    Hope this helps.
     
  8. Turnadot

    Turnadot New Member

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    Whoa, koldkase, thank you so much.

    I've started the Bonita papers and I'm pretty much glued to the screen. And I'll check out the books you've recommended.

    The Forums for Justice is an excellent resource!!

    I'm in awe at the dedication of the people there.
     
  9. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    Welcome to the JonBenet forum Turnadot and scout35! I was going to suggest reading the Bonita Papers but KK did an excellent job! Please let us know if we can be of any help.
     
  10. MsBashterd

    MsBashterd Have mouth will travel no charge

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    KoldKase that was just an awesome write-up I have read both the books but never knew about the Bonita Papers.

    Thank You I can't believe in all the years I have lurked around these parts I hadn't seen those before :waitasec:

    I am off to print and read up on those.
     
  11. Turnadot

    Turnadot New Member

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    Still reading the Bonita Papers, and I'm sorry, but: The Boulder police department had been negotiating for months with the attorneys for the Ramseys to schedule their official interrogation. The attorneys had demanded that the interviews be at the same time, that they not exceed 90 minutes that all previous statements by the Ramseys and others to the police be made available and that Peter Hofstrom of the Boulder D.A.’s office be present. On April 30, over four months after JonBenet's death, the long awaited interview with John and Patsy by the police department finally occurred.

    WTF???

    I felt a jolt of anger when I read that.

    Maybe I'm too stupid to get it, but their child is murdered and they make demands before they will sit with LE? Yes, LE thought the Ramsey's did it - and? The Ramsey's should have sat with LE ASAP and opened their life to them to help.

    My opinions...
     
  12. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    Turnadot, it looks like you are well on your way to seeing what we have been trying to tell the world! Have you ever heard of a case where the people "under the umbrella of suspicion" do interviews on talk shows before talking to the police? I hate to say it, but it does get worse from here, so be prepared.
     
  13. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Oh, you get it alright.

    Now multiply that jolt of anger times 14 years of even worse obstruction of justice into the murder of their child, and you have an idea of why some of us can't let this just go the way of other unsolved murder cases.

    These people flaunted their guilt and mocked the justice system. Not only that, they deliberately incriminated so many innocent people to cover up their own guilt, in my opinion.

    There are few figures in the history of true crime in this country who will be remembered as more diabolical or immoral than the Ramseys, IN MY OPINION.
     
  14. scout35

    scout35 New Member

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    Someone needs to make a study guide or a syllabus or something for the newbies to follow along. lol :crazy:

    So much to read! :waitasec:
     
  15. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    There IS one: http://www.acandyrose.com
     
  16. Turnadot

    Turnadot New Member

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    I'm reading Patsy's interview with the BPD right now, and what strikes me so far, is that - and someone correct me if I'm wrong - but they ask her about any suspicions she has of Fleet White and she says:
    Seems to me the only reason the Ramsey's pointed the finger at Fleet was because he confronted them about getting a lawyer so very soon and stonewalling police.

    So far, Patsy strikes me as a lady who had a mind like a steel trap and a selective memory. Just reading her interview is chilling, IMO. I can see why the BPD suspected her.

    I realise I'm new to all this and could be way off base.

    ETA:
    The mind boggles.

    OK, so her husband doesn't pick the papers off the floor to read? I'm really confused by that. It sounds like a lie to add weight to the story. After calling 911, she calls friends to rush over? Why? That just doesn't jive. I know everyone is different, but I'd have got my other child out of bed and huddled together in the living room, ransom note in hand, until LE arrived. I would not be calling friends over ASAP like it's a social gathering. I'd have been way too hysterical to think about who I needed to "invite". Just seems...off to me.

    Another thing, she stepped over the note, then turned around to read it?

    *scratches head*
    Wouldn't you bend down, pick up the pages and read right there. I don't get it. She goes into this story about how they would sometimes lay papers there, so she stepped over so she didn't slip and fall, etc. What a load of horsecrap. I'm sorry, but it's the way I feel about this scenario.
     
  17. joeskidbeck

    joeskidbeck Rest in Peace

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    The Ramsey's excuses for their fingerprints not being on the rn are hilarious. Anybody would have picked it up, fingerprints being the last thing on their mind. After all, at this point PR didn't know her daughter had been supposedly kidnapped and the image of JR on his knees in just his underwear makes you want to bleach your eyeballs! BUT I do believe JR had a really good reason for being in his underwear while looking for JonBenet. He sure wouldn't want any pesky little body evidence to be floating around in places that it shouldn't be. :sick:
     
  18. Agatha_C

    Agatha_C New Member

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    Agatha>>>> :shocked2: Then>>>:puke:
     
  19. Turnadot

    Turnadot New Member

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    Exactly!!

    I'm shocked that two educated people settled on that story. It makes no sense. Before Patsy even knew what the novella was about, she contorted herself on the spiral stair case, over the papers - why? So she didn't slip on the papers and fall. If she didn't want to slip and bust her azz, why didn't she PICK THEM UP!!?? It's a reactionary thing; pick up papers, read.

    Also, I think she phoned over the Whites and the Fernies so they could be "witnesses" to the Ramsey grief. I don't think she was frantically calling; I think it was a calculated move. Just my opinions.
     
  20. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Oh yes, the Ramseys swear to the end they didn't finger the Whites, but for some reason, their advocate and personal Benedict Arnold, jameson, didn't realize (or care) how many of the Ramseys' lies would be exposed by selling the law enforcement interview transcripts to the Ramseys' much hated tabloids for $40K.

    No, you're pretty much spot on. Every objective, intelligent person I've encountered in 11 years on the forums sees the same thing. It's really not rocket science. Professional detectives actually train for this kind of thing: ways to detect when a person is lying to them. Patsy hits every mark.

    You have to remember, by the time the Ramseys started spinning this story to LE in detail, four months worth of evidence had been processed and analyzed, and Alex Hunter had seen to it that the Ramseys got to see copies of all of the results. They knew there was a question about there being no fingerprints on the ransom note; hence, jumping up, down, and over spiral steps, reading on the floor instead of countless handy surfaces of countertops, tables, etc., not to mention the always appropriate, old-fashioned method of just holding it in your hands in good lighting.

    Oh well, la di da. If you live long enough to read the many OTHER versions the Ramseys told of what they did that morning, with ever-shifting details of who did what, when, and where, recounted in their book, in TV interviews, etc., you will have scratched the hair right off your head.

    Just don't forget your original gut feelings about what you're reading now. We've all had it, and Team Ramsey has spent 14+ years trying to convince us that we're just wrong! Old JOB Ramsey knows how one acts in such circumstances, not us! He ran a billion dollar company for Lockheed Martin, but when his child needed him most, he allowed "others" [lawyers] to tell him what to do, which resulted in the stellar results of the killer being caught and now sitting in prison for life!

    Oh, wait...oops. What it allowed was for him and Patsy to leave Colorado forever and never have to tell the truth about what happened to JonBenet. Plus not have to spend anytime in jail, complete with mugshots, etc.

    Oh heck. Y'all got me started! :maddening:
     
  21. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    In my opinion, the Ramseys called over the many friends to give them a cushion, between them and the BPD detectives, a huge distraction for LE to control on the scene once the body was found--and of course, who in the world could have predicted that the BPD wouldn't find the body immediately?

    I believe the plan was to quickly get away--remember John calling his pilot as soon as he "found" the body later? Initially, having the support team there to lead them away as Patsy played faint and John aggrieved was the point, IMO.

    As you can see, I believe the Ramseys were up all night making their plans. I also believe they had help, via some phone calls LE never saw the records for, thanks again to Alex Hunter, the Ramseys' best friend in this case.

    It's a complex puzzle that's taken me 14 years to put together, and some pieces are still missing and probably always will be. It's been said before that this isn't a tough case; the evidence is clear. How true that is. But with the very DAs who should be searching for justice for JonBenet obstructing the investigation from Day One into 12 years later, there wasn't any chance this case was ever going to be anything but FUBAR from the start.

    So it has been up to us, a world of strangers, to witness for this child. Her story is simple: she's the poster child for sexual and physical abuse and murder. This good, Christian family, a portrait of the American Dream, harboring such terrible secrets which our justice system itself helped them bury is the lesson we have to take away from JonBenet's fate.

    How many other children suffer this, and worse, without hope of help or justice, because they aren't believed, cannot defend themselves, and have no power or protection even in America at the turn of the 21st century?

    That's JonBenet's message and purpose, to witness for those children. She has been denied her story by her abusers and by the system that supports them for 14 years. A curse on all of them: may their corruption return to burn them tenfold.

    As for us, we have to hold fast to the truth, or she is just another victim with no voice.

    I can see the comparison between JonBenet and Caylee: yet another "respectable" family protecting the abuser, the killer; even in the face of knowing the monster they harbor, they abandon the child who was murdered in their very bosom. They are weak and corrupt, and they are fighting to maintain their self-image because to acknowledge the truth would destroy everything they have ever believed about themselves.

    Yes, that's hard, no doubt. But I would cut my own throat before I'd forsake my grandchild to protect her murderer, even if that killer was the person I loved most in the world. Nothing but disaster can come from lies and deceit; too bad the Ramseys and the Anthonys haven't learned that lesson.
     

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