"I'm not convinced DB is guilty" - Post your theories here.

[iamnotagolem]

Is it possible he stole it from someone he knew and they let the owner decide if they wanted to charge w/a lesser crime than auto theft? Since it said "without owner's consent"?

I'm just guessing, I do not know.

 

[In da Middle]

Thanks for the information, I am still confused though. What is the difference between auto theft and tampering with a motor vehicle in Missouri? Here's an example of why I ask:
http://stjoechannel.com/fulltext?nxd_id=253772
<snip>
"Lukehart is charged with resisting arrest by fleeing and car theft. He's being held without bond.
<snip>
Van Wicklin is charged with tampering with a motor vehicle. He's being held on a $15,000 bond."

Nevertheless, you are right -the October 13 charge looks to be related to the van, which I did not realize until your subsequent post. I guess I thought he was just breaking into the vehicle....still bad, but not auto-theft.

Since I now know your law sees tampering with a motor vehicle as auto-theft, then he has been confined twice before for the same thing - just no breaking and entering.

How do we stretch car theft into stealing a baby and three phones? Transportation seems to be his focus.

A mini-van? I guess we could stretch it even further into he was planning on having a large family soon??

I think his variety of charges only prove that he isn't immune to stealing anything that is convenient and he sees fit to steal. Transportation was not his focus when he was constantly breaking into the house up the street. The house where he even listed it as his address to LE and the neighbors got tired of constantly reporting him in it. I have no idea as to why he has not been charged (yet, anyway) with any of that.

 

[RANCH]

I had never heard that term until this case, I wonder if it depends on how the vehicle was stolen? I really don't know, but ie: hot wiring and breaking a window to gain access to the car as opposed to stealing one with the doors unlocked and keys in ignition maybe? :waitasec: Anyone have the legal terminolgy on this?

Here's a link to Missouri's law on Tampering in the first degree.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5690000080.htm

 

[redheadedgal]

As far as infant abductions, this profile is just wrong.

marla's profile/info, i believe, is all taken from the study she linked which is on small children who are abducted then murdered... your profile/info is just abducted, right? (most of whom are returned home alive as per NCMEC stats)... i think that's where the confusion is... ??

the study might've been found on the NCMEC's website (just guessing here) ... but it was conducted by the US Dept. of Justice...

 

[vlpate]

I think his variety of charges only prove that he isn't immune to stealing anything that is convenient and he sees fit to steal. Transportation was not his focus when he was constantly breaking into the house up the street. The house where he even listed it as his address to LE and the neighbors got tired of constantly reporting him in it. I have no idea as to why he has not been charged (yet, anyway) with any of that.

From what I understand, Jersey broke into the man's house once while he was on vacation and stayed there - no theft and the man didn't press charges. If you have yet another link that shows there were more than one, please

So we've gone from, the crime went down significantly in the neighborhood since Jersey had been incarcerated, to he broke into one house several times.

While his burglary crime, four years ago, was in Clay County, as well as the mini-van tampering, his other two tamperings were in Platte County.

His arson conviction was in New Jersey, thus, IMO, the name "Jersey", where he was given five years.

Ricci, in the Elizabeth Smart case, looked even better for it than Jersey does, but he died in prison with the world thinking he had kidnapped a young woman and then did God knows what with her - as it turns out, he was innocent of the crime. The coincidence in Ricci's case was that he had been in the Smart house and even copped to stealing small items. In Tanko's case we have the cell phone call that was made to a gf's cell and people seeing him in the neighborhood.

I just don't know why he would burden himself with a baby - and why he would go into a home with two cars in the drive and a big dog in the back yard. Just don't see the point.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

From what I understand, Jersey broke into the man's house once while he was on vacation and stayed there - no theft and the man didn't press charges. If you have yet another link that shows there were more than one, please

So we've gone from, the crime went down significantly in the neighborhood since Jersey had been incarcerated, to he broke into one house several times.

While his burglary crime, four years ago, was in Clay County, as well as the mini-van tampering, his other two tamperings were in Platte County.

His arson conviction was in New Jersey, thus, IMO, the name "Jersey", where he was given five years.

Ricci, in the Elizabeth Smart case, looked even better for it than Jersey does, but he died in prison with the world thinking he had kidnapped a young woman and then did God knows what with her - as it turns out, he was innocent of the crime. The coincidence in Ricci's case was that he had been in the Smart house and even copped to stealing small items. In Tanko's case we have the cell phone call that was made to a gf's cell and people seeing him in the neighborhood.

I just don't know why he would burden himself with a baby - and why he would go into a home with two cars in the drive and a big dog in the back yard. Just don't see the point.

BBM: this si exactly why many of us are still on the fence, sometimes the most obvious POI isn't the perp.

I'm not quite sure on the amount of crimes attributed in this area to Jersey vs the amount of charges or how the 2 are reported, hopefully someone can add more info on that. I would be interesting.

 

[vlpate]

marla's profile/info, i believe, is all taken from the study she linked which is on small children who are abducted then murdered... your profile/info is just abducted, right? (most of whom are returned home alive as per NCMEC stats)... i think that's where the confusion is... ??

the study might've been found on the NCMEC's website (just guessing here) ... but it was conducted by the US Dept. of Justice...

I think Jersey would be the most likely abductor, based upon what we know thus far and the criminal profile of a child kidnapper/murderer. I sure hope the police have completely investigated him and his actions and whereabouts leading up to and following Baby Lisa's abduction.

Here is some info from my research notes on the criminal profile involving child abduction that I compiled for a research project while in college...

Non family abductions are motivated by sexual gratification, retribution, financial gain, desire to kill, or maternal desire. The most common type non family abduction is sexually motivated and poses the highest risk of victim mortality.

Based upon info from US National Center for Missing and Exploited Children...non family abductions of infants (1 month - 12 months of age) tend to be carried out by white males between the ages of twenty and forty. They are typically not married, are loners, and have difficulty interacting with adults. They are a transient worker or day laborer with marginal social skills. Profit based offenses (drug related or ransom) are rare. Infants are usually abducted by a male who is an acquaintance or stranger of the victim/family, commonly a neighbor with a history of sexual misconduct. Race of victims and perps is consistently same. And most are victims of opportunity. Interesting to note also is the abductor's prior crimes are similar in M.O. (i.e. Jersey likes to set fires and a fire was discovered the night baby Lisa went missing).

BEM - Marlame incorrectly sited NCMEC as far as the source for "1 month to 12 month old infant abduction" perp profile, above. Her point was to show that Jersey fits their profile. Jersey does not fit their profile
.
An infant abduction is an infant abduction. Lisa was an infant at the time she was allegedly abducted. The statistics on infant abduction are what they are. No matter which agency does a study, Jersey does not fit. In fact, here's another study:

PROFILE OF THE ABDUCTOR

The data from these cases bring to light certain offender characteristics. Investigators can use these traits to profile and apprehend suspects. To help prevent abductions, hospital administrators should remain alert to persons fitting this profile.

By way of general background, infant abductors usually are women, accounting for 141 of the 145 cases analyzed. However, men committed 4 of the 145 crimes. Offenders whose ages were verified ranged from 14 to 48 years old, with an average age of 28. Race was determined in 142 cases; 63 offenders were white, 54 were black, and 25 were Hispanic. The typical abductor may not have a criminal record. If a criminal record does exist, it likely will consist of nonviolent offenses, such as check fraud or shoplifting.

________

I agree, the profile for non-family child abductors who abduct children over the age of one (usually 3 and up), are white males and the act is usually sexually motivated. We're talking about a 10 month old child taken from her bed, and we do not know if she was murdered.

 

[vlpate]

Here's a link to Missouri's law on Tampering in the first degree.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5690000080.htm

I saw this earlier - the definition is not confined to theft of the automobile, so we will have to wait until the trial to get the details, I suppose.

 

[marlame]

BEM - Marlame incorrectly sited NCMEC as far as the source for "1 month to 12 month old infant abduction" perp profile, above. Her point was to show that Jersey fits their profile. Jersey does not fit their profile
.
An infant abduction is an infant abduction. Lisa was an infant at the time she was allegedly abducted. The statistics on infant abduction are what they are. No matter which agency does a study, Jersey does not fit. In fact, here's another study:

PROFILE OF THE ABDUCTOR

The data from these cases bring to light certain offender characteristics. Investigators can use these traits to profile and apprehend suspects. To help prevent abductions, hospital administrators should remain alert to persons fitting this profile.

By way of general background, infant abductors usually are women, accounting for 141 of the 145 cases analyzed. However, men committed 4 of the 145 crimes. Offenders whose ages were verified ranged from 14 to 48 years old, with an average age of 28. Race was determined in 142 cases; 63 offenders were white, 54 were black, and 25 were Hispanic. The typical abductor may not have a criminal record. If a criminal record does exist, it likely will consist of nonviolent offenses, such as check fraud or shoplifting.

________

I agree, the profile for non-family child abductors who abduct children over the age of one (usually 3 and up), are white males and the act is usually sexually motivated. We're talking about a 10 month old child taken from her bed, and we do not know if she was murdered.

I sited NCMEC based upon this link: http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/homicide_missing.pdf

 

[hambirg]

Is it possible he stole it from someone he knew and they let the owner decide if they wanted to charge w/a lesser crime than auto theft? Since it said "without owner's consent"?

I'm just guessing, I do not know.

No, it's up to the prosecutor to determine the charges.

This is the difference. . .

Tampering in the first degree:
(2) He or she knowingly receives, possesses, sells, alters, defaces, destroys or unlawfully operates an automobile, airplane, motorcycle, motorboat or other motor-propelled vehicle without the consent of the owner thereof.
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5690000080.htm

Stealing and related offenses:
A person commits the crime of stealing if he or she appropriates property or services of another with the purpose to deprive him or her thereof, either without his or her consent or by means of deceit or coercion...

(3) The property appropriated consists of:
(a) Any motor vehicle, watercraft or aircraft; or. . .
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5700000030.HTM


So, basically he was caught driving a stolen car. We don't know if he actually stole it. They didn't charge him so they likely didn't have proof that he stole it.

 

[vlpate]

I sited NCMEC based upon this link: http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/homicide_missing.pdf

I read this very interesting pdf (thanks!), but still, nothing about the profile of an infant abductor. This study is about children who are abducted and found dead. Unless I missed something, Lisa has not been found period.

My point was, and is, Jersey does not fit the description of someone who abducts an infant from their crib. Until they find her, dead or alive, that profile won't change.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

I read this very interesting pdf (thanks!), but still, nothing about the profile of an infant abductor. This study is about children who are abducted and found dead. Unless I missed something, Lisa has not been found period.
My point was, and is, Jersey does not fit the description of someone who abducts an infant from their crib. Until they find her, dead or alive, that profile won't change.

BBM:
:what: I'm confused, are you saying Jersey couldn't have done it unless a body is found? :waitasec:

 

[redheadedgal]

... This study is about children who are abducted and found dead. Unless I missed something, Lisa has not been found period.

My point was, and is, Jersey does not fit the description of someone who abducts an infant from their crib. Until they find her, dead or alive, that profile won't change.

that's why i posted what i did earlier... to show it was for abducted and murdered children... and not relevant to this case

 

[redheadedgal]

dewey--

the study is on abducted and murdered children so-- i believe vl is saying that when a body is found and homicide is determined to be the COD and it's a certainty it was a SODDI scenario, then and only then will the info in that study -and that profile of a 20-40 yr old male- be applicable...

 

[vlpate]

BBM:
:what: I'm confused, are you saying Jersey couldn't have done it unless a body is found? :waitasec:

Not sure how you read that into what I wrote.

 

[marlame]

I read this very interesting pdf (thanks!), but still, nothing about the profile of an infant abductor. This study is about children who are abducted and found dead. Unless I missed something, Lisa has not been found period.

My point was, and is, Jersey does not fit the description of someone who abducts an infant from their crib. Until they find her, dead or alive, that profile won't change.

vlpate, yes, this study is about children who are abducted and found dead. Given we are on the thread: "I'm not convinced DB is guilty" - Post your theories here, I am simply theorizing who WOULD BE a likely suspect. It is just my opinion. I added the links to support my position/opinion and to afford anyone who is so inclined the opportunity to read for themselves. When looking at qualitative data, statistical analysis is subjective. It is apparent we happen to differ in our interpretation of the data presented in the research findings.

Regarding non family abduction murder of infants, “maternal desire abductions” (women wanting a child) are the most liklely suspect BUT this becomes less frequent when an infant is past the age of two months old. At which point, it becomes a white male as the most likely suspect. Add the other data outlined in the research findings I linked, I stand by my opinion…
Jersey DOES fit the profile.

Hopefully, we can move on? Thanks. :innocent:

~ MarlaMe

 

[hambirg]

vlpate, yes, this study is about children who are abducted and found dead. Given we are on the thread: "I'm not convinced DB is guilty" - Post your theories here, I am simply theorizing who WOULD BE a likely suspect. It is just my opinion. I added the links to support my position/opinion and to afford anyone who is so inclined the opportunity to read for themselves. When looking at qualitative data, statistical analysis is subjective. It is apparent we happen to differ in our interpretation of the data presented in the research findings.

Regarding non family abduction murder of infants, “maternal desire abductions” (women wanting a child) are the most liklely suspect BUT this becomes less frequent when an infant is past the age of two months old. At which point, it becomes a white male as the most likely suspect. Add the other data outlined in the research findings I linked, I stand by my opinion…
Jersey DOES fit the profile.

Hopefully, we can move on? Thanks. :innocent:

~ MarlaMe

Were there any statistics mentioned about where the crime scene is in these stranger/murderer/abduction murders?

 

[marlame]

that's why i posted what i did earlier... to show it was for abducted and murdered children... and not relevant to this case

If we are not convinced DB was responsible and think Jersey did it, then the data very well could be relevant to this case. Which is why I posted it her in the "I'm not convinced DB is guilty" - Post your theories here thread.

Statistically speaking and based upon the research data, in the event Jersey is the perp, Baby Lisa was most likely murderered. I was just providing the links for anyone to read. On Page 10 under Purpose of this Study is what I really found interesting, as it relates to "commonly help beliefs".: http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/homicide_missing.pdf

JMHO ~ MarlaMe :truce:

 

[marlame]

Were there any statistics mentioned about where the crime scene is in these stranger/murderer/abduction murders?

Do you mean crime scene as in the body recovery site? See page 39 under Table 28 & 29
Or, do you mean crime scene as in murder incident site? See Chapter VIII beginning on page 56. http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/homicide_missing.pdf

At this link: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/pr/201316.pdf
Body recovery site information is located beginning on page 73 and
murder incident site info on page 75.

Here you can find a table of information from the Journal of Forensic Scvience on page numbered 542: http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_44/iss_3/JFSCH12.pdf

Also, here is good synopsis of info on overall "Non Family Child Abductors Who Murdered Their Victims". Just scroll down ...It is listed under the ADDENDUM.:
http://www1.csbsju.edu/uspp/CrimPsych/CPSG-6.html

I hope this is what you were looking for.

~ MarlaMe

 

[vlpate]

<snip>
Regarding non family abduction murder of infants, “maternal desire abductions” (women wanting a child) are the most liklely suspect BUT this becomes less frequent when an infant is past the age of two months old. At which point, it becomes a white male as the most likely suspect. Add the other data outlined in the research findings I linked, I stand by my opinion…
Jersey DOES fit the profile.

Hopefully, we can move on? Thanks. :innocent:

~ MarlaMe

BEM: You left off the most important aspect of that research:

"Infants (1–12 months) comprise the second category of child abduction. Maternal desire abductions become less frequent, as a two-month-old infant is more likely to draw the attention of outsiders to the actual age of the baby. Most of these abductions are emotion based. Males face a higher risk of victimization, and males, usually the biological father, are the perpetrators in these

Read more: Missing Children - Nonfamily Abductions - Family, History, Usually, and Victim - JRank Articles http://family.jrank.org/pages/1175/Missing-Children-Nonfamily-Abductions.html#ixzz1nXibtOtt

Also interesting to note from this study:

"The biological mother, the most frequent offender, may seek revenge on the other parent by abducting the child. The abduction often hides the death of the child—usually disposed of close to home." This though, is birth to one month.