Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - #153 *ARREST - Richard Allen*

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katydid23

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Unless he gave an alias.
You mean he maybe gave an alias when he came forward to say he was at the bridge that day? Or used an alias at the pool tournies?

Thinking about it now, I don't think he would have been able to do so in either situation. I am sure he needed to show ID to the cops when he came forward and they would have checked him out. JMO

And he was with his wife at the pool tournies, so I doubt he used an alias.
 

Bbgiraffe

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yes, if you keep listening they read the excerpt to the step brother … around the 45 minute mark, and then you get his reaction. not sure why Gray brought it up as sexual (the biting) but i may have skipped over that part.
Ok i listened further and thanks for that but it doesn't mention anything at all about the mother. The Podcaster says they obtained this info from an interview with kegan and were wondering if it was the same story. They don't mention the mom, just that the kid had a fractured orbital bone and he says he has a scar on his head and remembers being at the hospital but doesn't remember being hurt and that it is the same story. I don't know. Maybe I'm being picky but I don't think it is the same story and I really question the motivations here.
 

5W's

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Respectfully snipped by me to address just this part of your post....

These are my opinions about the reasons it took so long to find the girls:

1. Darkness (they were only found to be missing after 3 pm and then the families searched on their own almost until darkness fell a couple of hours later) coupled with terrain (I think LE were worried that a searcher could potentially be injured while looking in the dark). Normally safety of the professional searchers could maybe be compromised to save victims in immediate danger, but there also was....

2. The belief by LE that the girls had gone missing voluntarily and were no longer in the trails area, but had gone off with friends. This influenced how and where LE searched. This belief came about due to small town interactions of LE where previous missing kids had all been located relatively quickly and had all been voluntarily missing. This working theory of LE's was not really questioned until around 2:30 am when pings from Libby's phone showed that it was likely the phone was still in the trails area. So until that point, the search was not actually solely focused on the trails and surrounding property, but rather searchers were deployed throughout the town of Delphi. Mike Patty describes driving through town and searching at the high school, etc.

3. Because the secondary theory after "voluntarily missing" was "the girls got lost walking home or had an accident that swept them downstream," the search was focused from the High Bridge downstream towards Delphi. Becky Patty talked about searching with a group in farm fields nearby, thinking the girls took a shortcut home and got disoriented. Mike Patty talked about getting in a canoe with a deputy and paddling downstream looking for them. People walked the banks of the creek in the direction of Delphi. But the girls were eventually found upstream, not downstream, where they had been forced to go. But this was not really considered as a possibility because everyone believed they were looking for lost or possibly hurt girls, not murdered or concealed bodies.

My sources for this info are the Down the Hill podcast, episodes 1 and 2, interviews with family and searchers.
I realize that all of these factors come into play. I still have also another question since dawn usually starts before 5am and dusk begins after 7pm or 8pm that would cut the search time to actually 8 or 9 hours before finding them. Since they didn't know the location of the girls bodies yet did they have LE patrolling the area? I realize its a large area. But couldn't someone move them there during those hours. I mean this is so bold what happened to Libby and Abby what's to say the move and posing didn't happen later? I suppose if its dark then the perp/s couldn't see that would be obvious. I just keep coming back to the fact that no one saw anything. It really is difficult to get over that one. Another thing is if Libby's phone was in her pocket then how did the perp/s not notice it? I mean it was very violent so her phone didn't get damaged or fall out. I wonder if Libby dropped her phone before the location so it could be found? Why didn't her phone ping there if it was concealed somewhere in Libby's clothes? I'm sure Libby wouldn't have turned her phone off so where exactly did it ping? Is reception spotty in the area?
 
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5W's

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You mean he maybe gave an alias when he came forward to say he was at the bridge that day? Or used an alias at the pool tournies?

Thinking about it now, I don't think he would have been able to do so in either situation. I am sure he needed to show ID to the cops when he came forward and they would have checked him out. JMO

And he was with his wife at the pool tournies, so I doubt he used an alias.
IDK the alias might be stolen and checks out? JMO.
 

diggndeeperstill

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there would be no reason by that point and it would be putting a witness in danger.

That said, i dont really understand letting him sit in the car anyway. Never seen that happen before in a raid.
Chad Daybell comes to mind. He was allowed to sit in the car, yet was arrested at end of search. I’m guessing different evidence here.
 

shushu

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I'm not suggesting RAs wife tipped off LE because I'm leaning elsewhere but I empathize with her. I question how a person wouldn't recognize their spouse, but I haven't been in those shoes. Imagine the contradictory emotions she must have been flooded with. Tough stuff. I believe they were married about 30 years.
 

mrjitty

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Legal Question here... Am I correct in assuming RA's defense attorney was given a copy and/or was provided access to the probable cause affidavit when he was charged on Monday??

In general you can't be locked up without due process and judicial oversight, so it would be rather Kafka if your lawyer could not access the documents showing the charges and the legal/factual basis on which you'd been arrested. The Judge relies on the defence to supply any evidence or information that might counter the prosecution case.

Ditto discovery kicks in
 

Lovemycat

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I'm not suggesting RAs wife tipped off LE because I'm leaning elsewhere but I empathize with her. I question how a person wouldn't recognize their spouse, but I haven't been in those shoes. Imagine the contradictory emotions she must have been flooded with. Tough stuff. I believe they were married about 30 years.
Personally I think video is to grainy to tell who it is so I don’t know if I would have recognized my husband if it was him in the video. But on the flip side maybe she did think it looked like him but was like no way is that him. If I thought my husband was in there I would be saying it can’t be and not say anything. The video looks like a lot of middle aged white guys. IMO
 

asyousay

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there would be no reason by that point and it would be putting a witness in danger.

That said, i dont really understand letting him sit in the car anyway. Never seen that happen before in a raid.


Nowhere else to go?


He can hardly go around to their friends houses can he and explain his house is being searched because they believe he killed Abby and Libby and ask to come in for a few hours.


Mooo
 

mrjitty

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It's not titled felony murder but it is felony murder. Here's the text of the statute:

35-42-1-1. Murder​

Universal Citation: IN Code § 35-42-1-1 (2021)
Sec. 1. A person who:
(1) knowingly or intentionally kills another human being;
(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal);
(3) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit:
(A) dealing in or manufacturing cocaine or a narcotic drug (IC 35-48-4-1);
(B) dealing in methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.1);
(C) manufacturing methamphetamine (IC 35-48-4-1.2);
(D) dealing in a schedule I, II, or III controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-2);
(E) dealing in a schedule IV controlled substance (IC 35-48-4-3); or
(F) dealing in a schedule V controlled substance; or
(4) except as provided in section 6.5 of this chapter, knowingly or intentionally kills a fetus in any stage of development;
commits murder, a felony.

The difference between (1) and (2) is the intent element. So for (1), you have to prove the person knowingly or intentionally killed another person. The traditional defenses to that are that it wasn't intentional, the person snapped, it happened in the heat of passion, or whatever other defenses are allowed in the state.

For (2), this subsection basically defines the traditional legal concept of felony murder. It states that "A person who kills another human being while committing [specific felonies] commits murder." This does not include an intent element - the state does not need to prove intent to kill here.

The point behind felony murder statutes is that the state considers certain violent felonies to be so dangerous and egregious that a reasonable person should know there is a high risk of someone being killed. If you commit one of those dangerous felonies, and someone dies, we're essentially going to infer your intent.

If you set a house on fire (arson) and you didn't realize someone was home and that person dies, even though you did not intend to kill that person, you can be charged under (2) with murder.

If you kidnap a child and put her in the trunk of your car and she dies, even though you didn't intend to kill her, you can be charged under (2) with murder.

In this case, IMO, the state believes they have probable cause to prove at least that RA kidnapped the girls and it resulted in their death so he was charged with felony murder. As the investigation continues the state can always file additional charges. But right now they filed these.

I will say recently I have seen more State AGs file charges and then take their case to a grand jury and come back with additional murder indictments. I think there's a calculation to get a dangerous offender off the street as soon as you believe you have probable cause for the arrest while also wanting the security of an indictment where an independent grand jury concurred with your proof. JMO IMO etc etc

This makes sense to me.

Get a charge in to stop the offender running, or harming himself/others - then go the GJ route.
 

boomburger

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Yes, and unfortunately we may find out there are a few others in there that apply.
When the police came out a while back and said the bodies were staged, it made me think of those sexual deviant killers who would purposely put their victims in humiliating, demeaning positions (underwear pulled down, legs spread apart, etc) with the intention of them to be found, unfortunately I suspect there will be some really, really messed up things that will be revealed about this case the longer it goes on, this will be very worthy of a death penalty case imo.
 

Sheila Terranova

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there would be no reason by that point and it would be putting a witness in danger.

That said, i dont really understand letting him sit in the car anyway. Never seen that happen before in a raid.
Wasn’t Chad Daybell sitting in the car while the police searched (and found) his property for the children‘s bodies?
 

mrjitty

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Nowhere else to go?


He can hardly go around to their friends houses can he and explain his house is being searched because they believe he killed Abby and Libby and ask to come in for a few hours.


Mooo

Yes.

If you are not under arrest, you can do what you want - so i suppose the natural thing to do is to wait and see what happens? I can see why a guilty or innocent person would do this.
 

5W's

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In general, I think there will be many women of such type in Delphi, because initial founding group for Indiana was rather small.

However, I can't get the shoes with elevations out of my head. Or maybe, heels.

There is another story where shoes were standing next to the crime scene. Far from Delphi, but still, Midwest, and the victim looked very much like one of the girls.


Now, she is older than two teenagers, but we don't know if he falls for the type?

What was also similar:
- posting on open SM before going fishing
- very rapid murder, very violent crime scene
- neck was cut + blunt wound on the head (can the butt of a gun be used for such a wound?)
- a pair of shoes standing next to the crime scene. They look like waiter's shoes. I didn't quite understand what it meant, and then thought, low-heels, comfortable, something that one could wear for a day.

But maybe if RA is proud and wears high heeled shoes or some form of elevators, he would not feel comfortable walking in them on the bridge? So he could carry a more comfortable pair in his car, putting them on before crossing the bridge? This could explain longer jeans; if he wears heels, making his legs optically longer, the jeans should be such as to cover them. Once he switches to more convenient shoes, the jeans start looking disproportionately long.

Now, about the shoes found next to the lake in Myron Grove. Maybe it was simply uncomfortable to walk in heeled shoes on a sandy terrain, so it was also a spare pair?

I know that SD is far from IN, but some similarity bothers me. And I don't know the details of either crime.
Maybe they weren't the perp's shoes. Maybe to throw LE off.
 

katydid23

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IDK the alias might be stolen and checks out? JMO.
I don't think that would have happened in such a small town. They would ask where he lived and worked and they could check his fingerprints if they had any doubts. I think he was cleared because they checked him out and found no criminal history , he worked at the local pharmacy and was a family man.

If he tried to use an alias none of that info would have checked out.
 

kittythehare

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I don’t think they are going to be able to have this trial locally. How can you possibly find a proper jury in Delphi who haven’t met/ seen the defendant at CVS or knows family members of the victims or hasn’t read about this case/ followed the case?
CVS is the only pharmacy in the entire town of Delphi.
I’m just not seeing this take place without a change of venue.
All imho of course.
Change of venue happens very often.
It's no big deal.
I think they'll be given all the resources they need to handle it with style.
 

Kano

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Nowhere else to go?


He can hardly go around to their friends houses can he and explain his house is being searched because they believe he killed Abby and Libby and ask to come in for a few hours.


Mooo
contained in an officers vehicle or being questioned and detained with an officer like a normal raid makes sense to me. Compared to being in a personal vehicle that contains personal effects. There could be hidden weapons, suicide pills etc,etc.
 
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