Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

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Le Singe

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Perhaps dissenting opinion, warning. Active investigation. Our desire, including mine, and media, and all other public, to know more, does NOT trump risking them not ensuring a solid prosecution. JMO, very strongly IMO. Wth would they risk that? Patience is required by all of us imo. Don't rush with wanting every single piece before it's time imo. Let them get it right, dotted is, crossed ts. As noted above , not like we saw, so far, recently in Colorado with poor missing (murdered imo) Suzanne.
but this is stuff you are supposed to do BEFORE you arrest someone. They've arrested him they should have to show at least probable cause to have arrested him. I think he is probably guilty, but if his rights are not protected and transparency not give to the process in his case how can you or I expect it if we are falsely accused? And to be clear we do not need public access to the whole case file or any gory details or anything, just the PCA which should have been write KNOWing It would be public.
 

Le Singe

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sketches are tools (not very good ones imo, especially when you have two very different ones) to help the public come forward in with tips or possible suspects they are drawing from people that represent generalized third hand accounts of someones memory of what the might have seen. Once you have a suspect they are irrelevant. Doesn't matter if he looks like the sketch or not. Only matters if they have real evidence or not. Why are we still debating the sketches?
 

Charlot123

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MOO Diener most likely was shocked he was doxxed and let go of the case because of it.

It meant he was becoming a publicity. There are people making careers of it, but Diner was unambitious and planning to stay a tiny judge in a tiny place. However - any threat to a judge should be a very serious business, after that case in Md.
if the cops search your house in relation to a murder 1 case and you don't consult or at least look in consulting with an attorney you are very naive and/or making very bad decisions. This is no proof of innocences nor is his wife sticking by him (happens all the time with people that are guilty as home made sin). The only thing that even slightly suggest anything is that the cops/court/state w/e are being so secretive. They do need to release the PCA so some of the crazy speculation can stop.

The problem is, if they hide everything, at the moment when it should be LE’s highest triumph, and there are petitions to keep it closed, it inevitably invites questions, more and more.
 

Le Singe

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So, he passes the buck to another judge to deal with it? What if this judge recuses for the same reason?

My own opinion, maybe this judge was not on board with the lack of transparency...and wanted no part of the situation. Just a thought.
the first judge? He literally is the one that signed off on it, it would not have happened if he had not done so. Subsequent actions and email etc. have shown him to be highly unprofessional at best. So it's likely he didn't understand what the reaction to what he was doing would be, I imagine backwoods judges and prosecutors and sheriffs get by with this stuff all the time without scrutiny so he didn't think it through, but he's no white knight in this story.

Lucky the current Judge appears to be very competent, highly qualified for this case, and have the experience needed. I will be much more inclined to trust what she decides.
 

Le Singe

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I don’t understand the confusion either. I think it was quite clear from the incredibly bizarre and unprofessional “orders” that he issued that he was not prepared for his job - and probably shouldn’t be a judge, period. He recused himself because he wasn’t able to do the job he was elected to do.

I understand it’s stressful and this is a high profile case but judges preside over murders, serial killings, terrorism, hate crimes, and gang cases everyday across the country without rage-quitting so I think ultimately this is a personal issue for this judge and not some weird conspiracy theory thing.
^this this this x 1000 agree agree agree

He's a judge that's what he signed up for its a very well paid, HIGHLy prestigious, politically powerful position, he likely had to be elected to. What would make any other judge any safer (has there been any confirmation of any real danger none that I've seen). @Alethea is 100% right this guy isn't scared of the public or YouTubers or whatever he was scared of being exposed for not being able to do his job. I think the recusal was accepted with out much fan fare b/c it was widely know he was not up to it and the state wants a competent judge for such a big case to not look like fools and to protect a conviction. MS reported that multiple sources in the Indiana legal community had contacted them with concerns about Judge Denier and anecdotes showing him not to be up to this type of thing even before he publicly went full toddler and threw all his toys out of his pram and quit. (see MS November 4th 2022 episode).
 

Le Singe

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Respectfully, would someone please politely explain why mostly everyone is having a hissy fit about the judge recusing himself?
Will it or has it hurt A&L’s case, in any way, shape, form or fashion?
I seriously don’t understand what the big deal is. However I’d like to know, to learn why it’s such a big deal.
Please and thank you.

ymmv
It's the best thing that could have possibly happened. He was clearly not up to it and that would have lead to all kinds of problems. The judge we have now seems to be very professional, very experienced, and also has a no nonsense attitude. JMO this is good for everyone.
 
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Charlot123

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Respectfully, would someone please politely explain why mostly everyone is having a hissy fit about the judge recusing himself?
Will it or has it hurt A&L’s case, in any way, shape, form or fashion?
I seriously don’t understand what the big deal is. However I’d like to know, to learn why it’s such a big deal.
Please and thank you.

ymmv

Had he just recused himself, who cares?
But he did one judicial thing before, he read the PCA and sealed it. You either don’t touch the case, because you are ill fit for it, of if you touched it, you stay.
So the image that emerges in my mind is: the judge reads PCA, then covers his face with his hands. “Oh, it is so explosive, so scary, no one should ever see it, I am sealing it and I am outta here”. So of course the community exploded, what’s in this affidavit? Curiosity, and, for whatever reason, it is a highly known case. Hence the hissy fit. (IMHO, JMO, I am the curious public).
 

gizmobtj

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but this is stuff you are supposed to do BEFORE you arrest someone. They've arrested him they should have to show at least probable cause to have arrested him. I think he is probably guilty, but if his rights are not protected and transparency not give to the process in his case how can you or I expect it if we are falsely accused? And to be clear we do not need public access to the whole case file or any gory details or anything, just the PCA which should have been write KNOWing It would be public.
Is your thought that, regardless of guilt or innocence, they may have jumped the gun on the arrest of RA?

I had a random thought about the PC. The evidence against RA could simply be that he told the conserveration officer he was on the bridge and did not see the girls that day and law enforcement believes the video proves believe the video proves he saw them and the audio, they proves he spoke to them. Then, at the same time, KAK has said something only the killer or someone who was communicating with the killer would know. If those things were true, and law enforcement could not connect RA and KAK, this would make a lot of sense -- why the prosecution would think they were sure; why the defense thought the PC was thin and why they would out there looking for the "one-armed man," I mean, other suspect.

(I really want to dismiss the KAK and TK theories, but the proximity of the Marathon gas station to RA's home, sticks out to me. MS reported its sources said KAK googled the gas station, but it is unclear whether he admitted or evidence on his phone, led them there)
 

getthefax

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EBM for typos:

My take is that they have such damning evidence against RA (maybe even his photo from Libby’s phone?) combined with something like plea deal stuff from KAK (his trial was just delayed again), that the judge felt sealing was the best way to ensure the integrity of plea negotiations and to keep RA around for trial (and possibly even protect him from others involved in the case).

I’m trusting the judge and process on this one. It is probably even more complicated than any of us knows, and we just have to wait it out. MOO, but I’m guessing they really, really have him. Of course the defense attorney says he is innocent— they haven’t seen the evidence yet. Let’s see how vehemently the public defender cries innocence after he’s seen all the evidence.

The timing is probably no coincidence—all the activity around KAK happening just before RA’s arrest leads me to believe KAK implicated RA somehow. All MOO.
 
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JudgeJudi

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Scott Reisch is a criminal defence attorney with 26 years' experience.

“Where the twist comes in is that apparently KAK, while in custody, has been cooperating with the ISP in regards to their investigation and he’s obviously trying to cut a deal in his own case to reduce any charges that he may face”. The question becomes, how does he know RA who’s been charged in this double homicide? LE are insisting that the case is still active and they’re leaving the door open for other charges. Six days after prosecutors filed a motion asking the court to dismiss 5 of the 30 charges for which KAK is due to stand trial in January, RA was arrested. Coincidence? I’ve told you before ladies and gentlemen, there are no coincidences in politics or in criminal defence”.

One of the reasons for the sealing may be that the PCA names one or more suspects that have not been charged. That’s clearly a possibility”.

The remainder is about KAK.

Start at At 4:36

 

Le Singe

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Is your thought that, regardless of guilt or innocence, they may have jumped the gun on the arrest of RA?

I had a random thought about the PC. The evidence against RA could simply be that he told the conserveration officer he was on the bridge and did not see the girls that day and law enforcement believes the video proves believe the video proves he saw them and the audio, they proves he spoke to them. Then, at the same time, KAK has said something only the killer or someone who was communicating with the killer would know. If those things were true, and law enforcement could not connect RA and KAK, this would make a lot of sense -- why the prosecution would think they were sure; why the defense thought the PC was thin and why they would out there looking for the "one-armed man," I mean, other suspect.

(I really want to dismiss the KAK and TK theories, but the proximity of the Marathon gas station to RA's home, sticks out to me. MS reported its sources said KAK googled the gas station, but it is unclear whether he admitted or evidence on his phone, led them there)
good thoughts and points!

Honestly my current thinking is as simple as I'd like to think they wouldn't have been so reckless as to have arrested this guy without something some what substantial so I think/hope they have at least something. Just in my personal perspective in the most general of ways he seems to resemble Bridge Guy. I wouldn't think they had jumped the gun until i heard the PCA was sealed (just in my anecdotal experience in following true crime for 25 years that seem's quite rare, legal experts I've heard opine seem to agree) and their justifications seem to be kind of all over the place (aKa any excuse to keep it sealed). so this has me thinking maybe they did jump the gun a little NOT saying he's not guilty or whatever but maybe they moved before fully having their ducks in a row.

One interesting consideration in line with something I heard mentioned on MS is that RA came on the radar kind of suddenly they started to look into him and found something either in the search and/or DNA (my personal speculation is right now they have a DNA match with RA but not much else). But they haven't fully built a case. Now they are in a real conundrum do we leave this guy who we now strongly believe murdered two young girls on the street while we fully build our case? Or do we bring him in once we have the minimum need to make an arrest and try to play catchup knowing at least he is not on the street anymore? I think this is what happened and they choose #2. Its a true dilemma and I'm not sure what I would have done.

As far as KAK I'm the type of guy that thinks these type crimes are NOT team sports and that's mostly movie stuff and 90% of the time its one guy acting on his own (hillside stranglers being a rare exception that comes to mind) HOWEVER this case is one that has me questioning that in order for KAK to have zero involvement there would have had to have been multiple huge coincidences occur. In addition to that it is clear to me LE think someone else is involved and in the past they definitely thought KAK and maybe his dad were involved. I believe LE must actually think this because if they didn't they would never be saying what they are saying b/c it creates a good readymade defense for RA. This isn't enough for me to feel certain KAK is involved, but I do think its a very real possibility (I mean they're not going to be out there this summer for weeks searching a river on something a obvious pathological liar said unless they have reason to believe there is something to it).

To be clear if KaK is involved I think it was in the setup and/or something afterward but I don't believe he was out there that day. I think KaK has some type of evidence or alibi that he was not personally at the bridge that day or they would have gone way harder after him in 2017.

One thing that is more and more starting to become my personal theory is that this crime was planned to be something different or more than what it was but shortly after the "guys down the hill" RA lost control (girls tried to run or something) and it turned into a murder right there.

Here's some random food for thought what if this summer or spring someone decided, being out of other ideas, to cross reference every name in the case file with every person KaK was in touch with 2015-2017 and RA s name popped up (no reason to believe this is what happened but something like this could be how his name popped up IF KAK is involved).
 

M. Kay

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Ontario Mom, you put it perfectly: they are doing their job, and we just need to wait and see, IMO. ETA: the business of why a judge recuses himself is also not one that requires approval from the general public. The first judge did as he saw fit and if he was wrong, the state legal board and/or appeals courts will decide on it; IMO there's nothing to be gained by arguing about it.
True: they are doing their job. Tough: our waiting and seeing. Wise: nothing to be gained arguing about it. Resigned & weary.
 

photographer4

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Is your thought that, regardless of guilt or innocence, they may have jumped the gun on the arrest of RA?

I had a random thought about the PC. The evidence against RA could simply be that he told the conserveration officer he was on the bridge and did not see the girls that day and law enforcement believes the video proves believe the video proves he saw them and the audio, they proves he spoke to them. Then, at the same time, KAK has said something only the killer or someone who was communicating with the killer would know. If those things were true, and law enforcement could not connect RA and KAK, this would make a lot of sense -- why the prosecution would think they were sure; why the defense thought the PC was thin and why they would out there looking for the "one-armed man," I mean, other suspect.

(I really want to dismiss the KAK and TK theories, but the proximity of the Marathon gas station to RA's home, sticks out to me. MS reported its sources said KAK googled the gas station, but it is unclear whether he admitted or evidence on his phone, led them there)
Imagine being catfished or in contact with a pedophile (KAK or whoever may have had a device and or login belonging to him) and then being murdered the next day - and there being no link?? Either LG was the unluckiest kid in town (along with AW) or somewhere there is a link. We would be naive to think this was a mere unfortunate coincidence.

Is it possible RA was a middle man of sorts? Somehow connected via his role at CVS in the capacity of a pharmacy tech?

Look at the specific subsection he’s charged under which says:

“The specific charge being alleged against Allen applies when a defendant:

(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal [this involves deviate sexual conduct]), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal)[.]

Now notice consumer product tampering is listed under this subsection. This idea that he may have simply tampered with consumer products in some way could make him (peripherally) involved in the deaths of the girls and may explain why his counsel said the evidence is flimsy.

It may also explain why they feel others are involved as well (who did such products go to and how did this happen — IF it happened at all because this is just my current theory, not fact!).

Could this explain why he didn’t panic at the search warrant of his home or why he didn’t seem to expect an arrest for murder?? Could this explain why his counsel says he is bewildered at the charges and why he claims he is innocent?

Could RA have been involved and not even have realized he was the middleman to some big murder until he was charged. He may never have expected to be charged in whole or in part but least of all for a murder.

One day it will be interesting to see what LE have on the guy and how they got it. It will be interesting to see what role he may have played if any and whether he knew or ought to have reasonably known his part in all this.

This info about the charges came from this link: Delphi Suspect Richard Allen Faces Murder Charges with Underlying Offenses, New Court Records Indicate

The post above is purely speculation and should not be taken as fact. It is just an idea as to how he may be involved and why the PCA apparently doesn’t mention anyone else as having been involved in the deaths of the girls.
 

Niner

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Imagine being catfished or in contact with a pedophile (KAK or whoever may have had a device and or login belonging to him) and then being murdered the next day - and there being no link?? Either LG was the unluckiest kid in town (along with AW) or somewhere there is a link. We would be naive to think this was a mere unfortunate coincidence.

Is it possible RA was a middle man of sorts? Somehow connected via his role at CVS in the capacity of a pharmacy tech?

Look at the specific subsection he’s charged under which says:

“The specific charge being alleged against Allen applies when a defendant:



Now notice consumer product tampering is listed under this subsection. This idea that he may have simply tampered with consumer products in some way could make him (peripherally) involved in the deaths of the girls and may explain why his counsel said the evidence is flimsy.

It may also explain why they feel others are involved as well (who did such products go to and how did this happen — IF it happened at all because this is just my current theory, not fact!).

Could this explain why he didn’t panic at the search warrant of his home or why he didn’t seem to expect an arrest for murder?? Could this explain why his counsel says he is bewildered at the charges and why he claims he is innocent?

Could RA have been involved and not even have realized he was the middleman to some big murder until he was charged. He may never have expected to be charged in whole or in part but least of all for a murder.

One day it will be interesting to see what LE have on the guy and how they got it. It will be interesting to see what role he may have played if any and whether he knew or ought to have reasonably known his part in all this.

This info about the charges came from this link: Delphi Suspect Richard Allen Faces Murder Charges with Underlying Offenses, New Court Records Indicate

The post above is purely speculation and should not be taken as fact. It is just an idea as to how he may be involved and why the PCA apparently doesn’t mention anyone else as having been involved in the deaths of the girls.

Very interesting in your thinking! :)
 

Charlot123

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Imagine being catfished or in contact with a pedophile (KAK or whoever may have had a device and or login belonging to him) and then being murdered the next day - and there being no link?? Either LG was the unluckiest kid in town (along with AW) or somewhere there is a link. We would be naive to think this was a mere unfortunate coincidence.

Is it possible RA was a middle man of sorts? Somehow connected via his role at CVS in the capacity of a pharmacy tech?

Look at the specific subsection he’s charged under which says:

“The specific charge being alleged against Allen applies when a defendant:



Now notice consumer product tampering is listed under this subsection. This idea that he may have simply tampered with consumer products in some way could make him (peripherally) involved in the deaths of the girls and may explain why his counsel said the evidence is flimsy.

It may also explain why they feel others are involved as well (who did such products go to and how did this happen — IF it happened at all because this is just my current theory, not fact!).

Could this explain why he didn’t panic at the search warrant of his home or why he didn’t seem to expect an arrest for murder?? Could this explain why his counsel says he is bewildered at the charges and why he claims he is innocent?

Could RA have been involved and not even have realized he was the middleman to some big murder until he was charged. He may never have expected to be charged in whole or in part but least of all for a murder.

One day it will be interesting to see what LE have on the guy and how they got it. It will be interesting to see what role he may have played if any and whether he knew or ought to have reasonably known his part in all this.

This info about the charges came from this link: Delphi Suspect Richard Allen Faces Murder Charges with Underlying Offenses, New Court Records Indicate

The post above is purely speculation and should not be taken as fact. It is just an idea as to how he may be involved and why the PCA apparently doesn’t mention anyone else as having been involved in the deaths of the girls.

I am 50% sold on this theory, consumer products (they can vary) tampering. It would still be interesting to find out how greedy RA was, if we are considering consumer products tampering. The goal for RA would be money.
 

photographer4

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I am 50% sold on this theory, consumer products (they can vary) tampering. It would still be interesting to find out how greedy RA was, if we are considering consumer products tampering. The goal for RA would be money.
Thanks for considering my theory! If it was tampering of some kind, I wonder what product(s) may have been involved? Substances? Electronic devices somehow?

I’ve no idea what tampering with an electronic device might be here though. Eg: would it be removing serial numbers to make them less traceable? Swapping parts in or out? No idea. That is tomorrows line of research if time permits.
 

coastal

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Thanks for considering my theory! If it was tampering of some kind, I wonder what product(s) may have been involved? Substances? Electronic devices somehow?

I’ve no idea what tampering with an electronic device might be here though. Eg: would it be removing serial numbers to make them less traceable? Swapping parts in or out? No idea. That is tomorrows line of research if time permits.
Google says:

What is consumer product tampering?

U.S. CODE § 1365

§ 1365 defines consumer product tampering as tampering with the product with "reckless disregard" for the fact that it might cause injury or death or with the intent of causing injury to a business. It is also a federal crime to attempt to tamper with or taint a product, even if you fall in doing so.

It looks like tampering = tainting here. Tainting makes me think of drugs, like cyanide in Tylenol, but IDK.

Also:


>>>snip

WHAT ARE THE PENALTIES FOR THIS FEDERAL OFFENSE?

If you're convicted of federal consumer product tampering, you could face harsh penalties that vary according to the type and severity of the offense, along with significant fines. For example:
  • If you tamper with a product for the purpose of injuring a business, not with the intent of hurting or killing consumers, you could face up to 3 years in prison.
  • If you falsely claim a product was tampered with, or if you threaten to tamper with a product...the maximum penalty is five years in prison.
  • For general instances of tampering or attempted tampering where the injury did not occur...the maximum penalty is ten years in prison.
  • If the tampering resulted in serious injury to another person...the penalty is up to 20 years in prison.
  • If the tampering results in someone's death...the maximum penalty is life imprisonment.
Tainting consumer products under this law can result in a maximum of three years in federal prison, while knowingly communicating false information about a consumer product being tainted can result in five years of imprisonment if convicted...

<<<snip

I don't know, the examples I saw both dealt with corporate sabotage...
 
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