Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #159

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MuddyTires

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As we are headed towards a trial and (amazing!) we have some actual evidence to discuss, it's worth beginning some of the well trodden discussions about the nature of circumstantial evidence vs direct evidence.

Main points to my mind.

1. Circumstantial evidence is not weaker than direct evidence. Indeed it is frequently more powerful due to its cumulative weight. i.e. when we have so many pieces of evidence mapping the accused to what we know about Bridge Guy, it becomes hard to deny that RM must in fact be BG. It is not allowed to henpeck the individual points of circumstantial evidence and speculate them away. Rather one must ask what has been proved, and then make any natural and obvious inferences based on the entire web of facts.

2. Forensic, digital and technical evidence are some of the most powerful forms of circumstantial evidence. We can rely on them much more than fallible humans!

3. Video can be used as direct evidence! In this case we have a video directly proving key elements of the actus reus and going to identity. That is big! (But easy overlooked because we knew about it for years). Think how hard this case is without the video - BG is just a person seen at 50 yards, and we wouldn't even know for sure BG was the killer. With video, I would convict him based on the witnesses, his car and the ammunition match on the bullet - even without expert analysis.

Always up for anorak discussions of evidence :)

If you would convict Allen based on the publicly released portions of the video and publicly released assertions regarding the witnesses, Allen's car, and the bullet, you would not be adhering to the standard of guilt being proven beyond all reasonable doubt.
 

girlhasnoname

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Reposting this for those who remain skeptical or inquisitive regarding forensics on ejector markings on unspent rounds.

Technical Procedure for Unfired Cartridge/Shotshell Examination
Version 9
North Carolina State Crime Laboratory – Firearms Section
Effective Date: 06/25/2021
Issued by Firearms Technical Leader
Thanks for the information HC. I've also linked several studies on the same in the previous thread. Of course, there will be proponents of the science and also naysayers.

I think and hope they might have a partial print or DNA on the bullet itself, which will only further strengthen its relevance.

It still is just one piece of a much larger puzzle that ties RA to BG.

MOO
 

WildHuncher

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In answer to what are now repeated claims that the defense has a resource in the similarity of RA's Sig Sauer P226 to the standard Indiana State Police officer's Sig Sauer P227, I'll risk repeating a point that's overlooked in such posts:

The Wikipedia page for the P226:


From there:
The SIG Sauer P226 is a full-sized, service pistol made by SIG Sauer. This model is sold with a choice of four chambers to choose from: the 9×19mm Parabellum, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .22 Long Rifle.

RA has the .40 version. The unspent cartridge from the crime scene is also .40.


The P227 introduced a double-stack .45 ACP caliber handgun into the SIG Sauer lineup.

It comes only in .45 ACP. This is what an Indiana cop might accidentally, never mind how, drop on a crime scene.

A forensic tech handed RA's Sig Sauer and a .45 round from a crime scene will not do extended analysis of tiny scratch marks to tell if that round came from that gun. He will inform you that the CS cartridge is too fat to ever chamber in RA's gun.

Cartridges.jpg
 
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girlhasnoname

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Something that troubles me quite a bit is how come RA never came forward in the 5+ years his tip was ignored ...

Surely he would have told his story to quite a few people?

He was there on minutes apart from a famous murder!? He must have only just missed seeing Bridge Guy?
An innocent person would have been telling everyone one they know down at the local beer and pool hall joint.

RA was too busy growing out his goatee and gaining weight to further disguise his appearance from BG.

MOO
 

NugHunter

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I realize many of us want answers and curious to how things played out in this case. That being said, we all have to realize there is more evidence in this case then was released in the recently released PC dox. For those who do not know,PC stands Probable Cause. It does not stand for BARD or Beyond A Reasonable Doubt which is required to CONVICT the defendant during TRIAL..and its not supposed too !!!

The PC dox are the prosecutions way of convincing a grand jury they have ENOUGH PROBABLE evidence to CHARGE a defendant with a crime and put him on trial.They do no present ALL of the evidence.
Here is how it works:
Prosecutor to Grand Jury : "We found this bullit that matches the accused gun,we have eyewitnesses at the scene who place accused at scene, we have statement from accused admitting his presence at the scene at the time of the murders,the clothes the accused stated he was wearing matches the clothes the man in the video was wearing, the accused and man in video who said"down the hill " both have the same body type.
IF you the grand jury give us chance to put this man on trial we feel we have enough evidence in TOTAL to convict the accused at trial so take a look at what we showed you and please give us that chance to prove his guilt BARD"

Grand Jury : "After reviewing the prosecutions PC evidence we believe there is enough PROBABLE CAUSE Evidence to put the defendant on trial and let both side provide evidence that point to guilt or innocence and let 12 people decide the outcome"

I do not think ANYONE here would disagree they did no present enough evidence to convict RA in the PC dox ...BUT... they did present enough to put RA on trial for these crimes....which as I previously stated is the main reason for a PC hearing.

I would hope people would stop "trying" the entire case based on whats in PC dox as its like trying to solve a mystery novel by only reading the front and back cover.
.
 

OverTheRhine

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Carter always seemed genuine and I don't see in a million years him not being confident enough to put RA away and risk putting the family members through all of this for nothing. I just don't see it. I think they have plenty more. And remember he was not against releasing the PCA.
 

Vpq

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In answer to what are now repeated claims that the defense has a resource in the similarity of RA's Sig Sauer P226 to the standard Indiana State Police officer's Sig Sauer P227, I'll risk repeating a point that's overlooked in such posts:

The Wikipedia page for the P226:


From there:
The SIG Sauer P226 is a full-sized, service pistol made by SIG Sauer. This model is sold with a choice of four chambers to choose from: the 9×19mm Parabellum, .40 S&W, .357 SIG, or .22 Long Rifle.

RA has the .40 version.


The P227 introduced a double-stack .45 ACP caliber handgun into the SIG Sauer lineup.

It comes only in .45 ACP. This is what an Indiana cop might accidentally, never mind how, drop on a crime scene.

A forensic tech handed RA's Sig Sauer and a .45 round from a crime scene will not do extended analysis of tiny scratch marks to tell if that round came from that gun. He will inform you that the CS cartridge is too fat to ever chamber in RA's gun.

View attachment 384039
Excellent post and information. Thank you.
 

taylorss

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If you would convict Allen based on the publicly released portions of the video and publicly released assertions regarding the witnesses, Allen's car, and the bullet, you would not be adhering to the standard of guilt being proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

He’s charged with felony murder with kidnapping as the underlying felony offense.

IMO based only on what we’ve seen publicly, I’d expect no problem at all convincing a jury or judge that he’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

He is literally on audio & video kidnapping the girls at gunpoint to the location where they were murdered.

The only way he could dodge guilt on this would be by arguing that the BG on Libby’s phone isn’t him. That would be an uphill battle to put it mildly IMO
IMO
 

oceanverde

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He’s charged with felony murder with kidnapping as the underlying felony offense.

IMO based only on what we’ve seen publicly, I’d expect no problem at all convincing a jury or judge that he’s guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

He is literally on audio & video kidnapping the girls at gunpoint to the location where they were murdered.

The only way he could dodge guilt on this would be by arguing that the BG on Libby’s phone isn’t him. That would be an uphill battle to put it mildly IMO
IMO
Wait, what? He's on audio and video kidnapping the girls at gunpoint?
 

NuttMegg

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An innocent person would have been telling everyone one they know down at the local beer and pool hall joint.

RA was too busy growing out his goatee and gaining weight to further disguise his appearance from BG.

MOO
i' m a little puzzled over a couple of his recent actions, 1 begging for mercy from the court, re getting a pd when at first he said he would furnish his own representation. Iirc he actually said "mercy"? I don't mean getting the routine pd, just the theatrical words he used. 2 the patheic "sad sack" calculated, imo, expression in his mug shot. Now that we've seen how weird his unnecessary confessions were..re being there looking for fish, perusing his stocks, well I just wonder who this guy is. Playing the role of a bumbling goofus or is a dedicated, premeditated murderer.

I do think he's guilty, btw.
 

raja

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"A civilian FBI employee mislabeled or misfiled tip information in the system, which means it didn’t show up in the correct location during a data search. As the case stalled, police went back to the very beginning of the investigation. That’s when they discovered the interview with Allen that prompted them to take a closer look."
Again we see why the FBI was not present at the PC announcing RA arrest.
 

layer

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Did anyone else actually read the PCA? You would think they would be more careful about what they put in there. Can't they afford a proofreader? If you are that careless with small details then how can you be trusted on bigger ones?
 

Havingacrisis

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I was just thinking about how all this time there has been so much debate over what was on BG’s head. I couldn’t decide myself. And now when I look at the unenhanced video, it seems so obvious to me that he is wearing a beanie hat with a hood behind his head. The enhanced video obscures this to the point it is more confusing imo.

Perhaps it’s the existence of these photos making me see this. But to me, this all matches perfectly now. MOO

Edit: illustrated what I see now
 

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scapa

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I know zero about guns, and basically what I do know I've learned over these threads and will promptly forget, but the fact that the one RA used is next door to a standard-issue for some state police forces, is expensive and not really an everyday model makes me wonder if this is a case of someone who craved authority and the opportunity to express it.

Will we find out that he wanted to join the military / police or another career or org where he could find that authoritative role?

Was the white coat and shift super's badge that came with the P Tech license and CVS gig that role for him, that he could thrive in?

And now, stripped of that coat and badge and authority, we hear him pleading dramatically for mercy from the court. It's like he's reverted to the thing inside the man.

No real argument, just a thought.
 
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