Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #159

[taylorss]

It’s strange how no one is giving a date for the 2017 “tip” conversation between RA & the CO …. if RA only met the officer outside a grocery store (????) that’s so informal he might not even know the date. I wonder if the CO even recorded the date they spoke, tho at least his resulting filing should have created a record of receipt … JMO

 

[m00c0w]

Has anyone seen page 8 of 8 of the affidavit? Not sure if I’m missing something, but I only see 7 out of 8 pages and a final page that is included but is not actually part of the affidavit (request for a court entry).

I’ve checked a few different places and they all only go to 7 of 8…

JMO

 

[flashy09]

There might have been at least one other out there. I'm not convinced both descriptions (all black, jeans and blue for exampl) and the sketches are of the same guy. There very well could have been another guy out there during that time, along with the women (woman?) and other kids, that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the murders. Just some guy taking a hike like the woman and kids were. That would definitely explain why the sketches and descriptions don't match BG/RMA.

So in the PCA the man described as in all black is a description made by one of the three witnesses by the Freedom Bridge who saw BG at the exact same time and place as the other two witnesses. So the man in black wasn't a separate man.

They all did describe his demeanor as off and his appearance obscured.

 

[MichMan015]

In this thread post #258 regarding the CO’s notes of his encounter with RA the last sentence says that RA “did not take any pictures or video”. Kind of a strange notation in a missing person investigation.

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

My only problem with this is if RA was interviewed/talked to on the 13th after the murders although it’s a missing persons report wouldn’t he have been muddy and bloody at that point.

Jmo

JMO

Good point! My hypothesis does assume that RA would have cleaned himself up before approaching the state CO.

The girls were reported missing at around 5:30 pm that evening, so RA would have had time to do so.

I think I’ve driven this as far as I can. Hopefully at some point they’ll provide more info on when the report was taken and when it was submitted. The PC Affadavit didn’t include that info for the 2017 RA Narrative.

JMO.

 

[Gemmie]

Has anyone seen page 8 of 8 of the affidavit? Not sure if I’m missing something, but I only see 7 out of 8 pages and a final page that is included but is not actually part of the affidavit (request for a court entry).

I’ve checked a few different places and they all only go to 7 of 8…

JMO

Nope. I'm thinking it's a whole bunch of nothing like signature lines and names of who's to sign where. If there's something there of interest, yet the entire page is redacted, I'd think they'd simply show page 8 with everything redacted. That's what makes sense to me at least.

 

[Ontario Mom]

What a blatant, gross misconstruction of the PCA.

It wasn't even a bullet! It was an unspent case.
There are witnesses to somebody that fits his description.
Etc.

But, I would have said the exact same as his defense.

RA legal defense: “We don’t want to try this case in the media…”

Also RA legal defense: delivers their opening statement complete with polictical intrigue/influence, questioning the validity of ballistics, all while painting RA as fine, upstanding citizen... and does exactly that.

Kind of a creepy-ish vibe.
Or maybe a "shots fired" on the offensive, sort of thing?
I'm not sure what to think of it.
Except they are 100% attempting to try this case in the media.

jmo

 

[photographer4]

Do you think the information contained in the probable cause affidavit adequately supported RA’s arrest?

It serves as the only evidence we know of for now but we don’t know if there’s more. Thankfully the jury is not deliberating quite yet.

There will be more. They have to explain when the kids met him and what exactly happened next. Why they think he did it and how. And what happened after.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

RA legal defense: “We don’t want to try this case in the media…”

Also RA legal defense: delivers their opening statement complete with polictical intrigue/influence, questioning the validity of ballistics, all while painting RA as fine, upstanding citizen... and does exactly that.

Kind of a creepy-ish vibe.
Or maybe a "shots fired" on the offensive, sort of thing?
I'm not sure what to think of it.
Except they are 100% attempting to try this case in the media.

jmo

Nah come on, the prosecution and ISP have been having a media love-in for ages. I think this is the defence’s way of saying “we’re doing no interviews, and this is all we have to say.” Particularly as it was in response to an interview request.

 

[m00c0w]

Nope. I'm thinking it's a whole bunch of nothing like signature lines and names of who's to sign where. If there's something there of interest, yet the entire page is redacted, I'd think they'd simply show page 8 with everything redacted. That's what makes sense to me at least.

I would think that, except usually probable cause affidavits have concluding statements where they say something like “as a result of this evidence, investigators believe there is sufficient probable cause to arrest X for Y.” It’s very strange how it ends on page 7 if all that’s left are affiant signatures. I would expect another paragraph or two wrapping the entire thing up.

JMO

 

[LammyTheRobot]

I would think that, except usually probable cause affidavits have concluding statements where they say something like “as a result of this evidence, investigators believe there is sufficient probable cause to arrest X for Y.” It’s very strange how it ends on page 7 if all that’s left are affiant signatures. I would expect another paragraph or two wrapping the entire thing up.

JMO

On Nov 22 in court the defence attorney said the affidavit hadn’t been sworn properly. That oath and stamp would have been on page 8, IMO, it’s safe to assume.

 

[m00c0w]

On Nov 22 in court the defence attorney said the affidavit hadn’t been sworn properly. That oath and stamp would have been on page 8, IMO, it’s safe to assume.

Well, yes. My question is more if there is something on page 8 aside from signatures.

 

[raja]

That's a really weird way for a state to do that IMO. It's also wasteful. Here we can reuse the same plate for decades, and even transfer it to a new car (although not many dealers know how to do this because hardly any car buyer knows they can ask to keep their old plate!). We have to renew the registration and pay for new tags to go on the plates (front and back) every 2 years. It's not much money (I don't recall the amount but it's not hundreds)!

IN should do it that way IMO. Then it wouldn't have been necessary for RMA to back his car in to hide the plate. It also makes it so you can only get a license # if you see the rear of the car. That's weird and doesn't help LE. "Sorry, officer... I only saw the front of the car so couldn't get a plate number".

In defense of my state we do use the same plate for several years and just change the expiration sticker each year.

 

[GA_Peach]

I strongly suspect RA is BG. But I still have a reasonable doubt. I need more.

Same.

How about the bullet that matches his gun? He can’t explain how it got there and had never been to that property where it was found. Says he didn’t loan out his gun and didn’t know RL.

At this moment in time, I am not prepared to concede that the bullet found between the girls belongs to RA. If it does, that's enough for a conviction for me. But I need to see more evidence than what was presented in the PCA to concede the bullet came from RA's gun. Having said that, I do believe that the PCA has enough evidence to support the arrest warrant, and at the end of the day, that is the purpose of the PCA.

There might have been at least one other out there. I'm not convinced both descriptions (all black, jeans and blue for exampl) and the sketches are of the same guy. There very well could have been another guy out there during that time, along with the women (woman?) and other kids, that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the murders. Just some guy taking a hike like the woman and kids were. That would definitely explain why the sketches and descriptions don't match BG/RMA.

This is a big part of what is giving me pause. These witness accounts are contradictory (blue clothes vs. black clothes, etc.), and if it comes to putting these witnesses on the stand, I don't think that it will go well for the prosecution. Was the man depicted in YBG sketch the same person as original BG? If they were different, there couldn't have been only one person. If they are the same person, why do the sketches look so different? And as I have mentioned, it doesn't appear that any of the witnesses IDed RA. Add in the confusion about the car (Ford Focus vs. small SUV vs. smart car), and I wonder how many of the things alleged in the PCA would be convincing to a potential jury.

I understand that the PCA is not meant to prove the prosecution's case. I think that LE did what it had to do with the PCA, but I hope that they have significantly more evidence that what was used in the PCA. And if the PCA is representative of the quality of evidence that they have, I will be nervous. I want the man responsible for this heinous crime behind bars forever.

 

[LiverpoolUK2222]

I’ve followed this case since it was 1st reported online and have been hoping they catch the monster who did this. Abby and Libby probably knew he was not going to let them go, and it’s heartbreaking to know that one of the girls would have seen the other being murdered before he killed her too. If RA is the killer I hope the police have enough evidence to get him locked up for life. I hope they have his dna from the scene or something of the girls when they searched his house. I’m hoping his clothing, coat, boots still have traces of the girls blood so he can’t cry he’s innocent. I found this link which explains about how blood can remain on clothing. I hope I have posted the link correctly.

Will Washing Destroy The Evidence? - ACE

When detective fiction first began to be become really popular and mainstream around the 1920s and 30s there were a few ways that criminals could cover their tracks. Hairs left at the scene? No problem. There was no DNA testing then as there is today. Needed to destroy fingerprints on a knife?

acecleanuk.co.uk

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

It’s strange how no one is giving a date for the 2017 “tip” conversation between RA & the CO …. if RA only met the officer outside a grocery store (????) that’s so informal he might not even know the date. I wonder if the CO even recorded the date they spoke, tho at least his resulting filing should have created a record of receipt … JMO

In this thread post #258 regarding the CO’s notes of his encounter with RA the last sentence says that RA “did not take any pictures or video”. Kind of a strange notation in a missing person investigation.

JMO.

I’m sure date information was included with the state CO report, but I don’t know why that’s not being provided now.

I doubt RA lawyer’s description of the state CO scribbling notes — I thought the information recorded as presented in the PC Affadavit (link provided for screenshot) was concise but pertinent to an active search for Abby and Libby:
—When RA was in the MHB trail area
—Where he parked and the path he took (though there was either an assumption made that RA took the same route to return as to enter or the RA stated that was the case and it wasn’t recorded)
—Who RA saw while there (and descriptions)
—Whether RA saw any vehicles in the parking area
—What RA was doing (watching a stock ticker), though that may have been volunteered by RA as a reason he wasn’t paying close attention to other vehicles

I’m pleased that the state CO officer took the MEID phone info. That’s not just randomly scribbling notes as the ever-helpful RA gives a rundown of his MHB hike.

A lot of people went to MHB for photography, and Libby may have mentioned that as a reason to go that day. The PC Affadavit describes others having taken photos that day. I don’t think the question was strange in that context. It indicates an organized approach to reporting someone in the area of an active missing persons search.

JMO.

 

[IceIce9]

That's a really weird way for a state to do that IMO. It's also wasteful. Here we can reuse the same plate for decades, and even transfer it to a new car (although not many dealers know how to do this because hardly any car buyer knows they can ask to keep their old plate!). We have to renew the registration and pay for new tags to go on the plates (front and back) every 2 years. It's not much money (I don't recall the amount but it's not hundreds)!

IN should do it that way IMO. Then it wouldn't have been necessary for RMA to back his car in to hide the plate. It also makes it so you can only get a license # if you see the rear of the car. That's weird and doesn't help LE. "Sorry, officer... I only saw the front of the car so couldn't get a plate number".

Well we can use the same plate but we have to pay annually. Indiana plates are expensive because they are charged according to the price or value of your vehicle. You get a new sticker each year.

Last year I bought a new SUV and my plate cost over $500 for one year. The next year (2022) the price of my plate went down to $475, same plate but they mailed me a new sticker.

My daughter’s car is five years old, her plate is much cheaper,Ike $250 per year. Again, same plate, they just mail you a new sticker.

Some people can’t afford to pay the price so they drive on expired plates. They park in their garage and back up next to buildings to hide the expired plate. But if they get caught they pay a fine, and often their vehicle gets towed and impounded.

 

[Derph]

We don’t have front license plates in Indiana. Our plates are very expensive here, for example I pay over $400 per year for my SUV plate.

Because the plates are so expensive you see quite a few expired plates. People often back in next to a building or park weird to hide an expired plate

Here's what I have an issue with. He parks his car to hide his license plate but then walks a mile or so on a public road covered in blood and mud back to his car when there was plenty of cover to walk back to his car under. Heck, he could have walked home under cover considering how close he lived to the trail.

Then this careful criminal who hides his license plate, volunteers to put himself at the crime scene, KEEPS the same clothes! Keeps the gun, he keeps the car he drove home with that theoretically would be covered in blood. He stays in the area for years, interacts with the victim's family. We'll find out about his internet searches and any links to weird stuff on his computers and phones. Oh and he has no criminal record of anything consequential.

Add to this there are 2 different sketches, witnesses who could not get a good look at the person's face, the mysterious man in black* possibly), a witness who was driving ID'ing a man covered in blood and mud. There is a ton of reasonable doubt here in a lot of these 'facts'. I really hope they have more.

I'm starting to pick up some Steven Avery vibes here.

 

[photographer4]

"Why would the police withhold [the cause of death]? The only thing I can think of is it was too gruesome, in their mind, to release," Garrett said. "It seems like there is something more to it than just a gun.

Garrett said it's possible that the gun jammed and the killer turned to another weapon."

Delphi murders: What the unsealed documents reveal and the questions that remain

Abby and Libby, best friends in the eighth grade, were on a hiking trail in rural Delphi when they were killed in February 2017.

abc7chicago.com

Because it’s something specific that only the killer would know.

If a call comes in that someone said kids died of gunshot and really it was a stabbing; then they know the tip is garbage. If someone calls and says it was a gunshot that got them, police have the bullet and can ask what kind of gun. If they say rifle and it was a P226 they know it’s not super valid.

They did well to hide the bullet found on scene. That may be a tactic by the killer to make it seem like something it wasn’t. A signature of sorts. Maybe? Mooooo

 

[photographer4]

That was so eye opening to me. I don't think I ever realized he was the only male on the trail during the time frame of the girls being there and that there were only 4 other people (and 3 were leaving) on the trail at all.

Ok so what about flannel shirt guy? Libby’s father spoke to him as he looked for the kids at the trail. If you need to be sure I’d suggest googling flannel shirt guy - it was talked about a lot here on WS and I’m not sure how to link back to closed threads.