Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #159

[Boxer]

IMO he was trying to get back to his car in the fastest possible time. If he knew the girls had been dropped off at the park (and I think he did) then he had to logically know that someone was going to arrive to pick the girls up. That person or persons is/are going to search the park first... going to go right straight to the bridge first, imo. There is a walking path along the ridge of the woods below the cemetery but it takes a person straight to the bridge and a choice of taking the drop off path or the main path out of the park and someone looking for the girls isn't going to just walk by saying, "Hello" this time. He's going to be questioned: "Have you seen 2 girls?" He can't take the chance of being stopped and questioned! He can't cross the river and try to cross over that railway bridge because he, of all people knows that's a trap. If he starts crossing the bridge, someone might be coming across the bridge from the other direction. Even if he manages to cross there, he still needs to walk the 3/4 mile of trail to the trailhead and could run into people that way. He can head south at the end of the bridge but, looking at the overhead of the park, you'll see that he now has made his trip to his car almost impossible to do in any kind of timely manner... it's the worst choice of all if LE is called quickly. He can't afford to be seen inside that park all muddied up and bloody. He has no way of knowing if whoever might come to pick the girls up won't call 911 immediately. He walks along the road trying to disassociate himself from the park... he is a guy who might not be noticed or paid any attention to at all by any drivers... for those who might see him, they probably won't stop and question him... they might assume he fell off a dirt bike... or got into a fist fight... or got kicked off by a horse... or had an accident with some farming equipment and is walking to a farm along that road. He took his chances in other words. The woman who claimed to see him didn't stop... didn't question him... remember that most people who would see him have no idea 2 girls are missing and murdered. He probably had his head down and looked to the right or faked walking away from the road due to an oncoming vehicle... remember the young girl witness on the trail who said she "was trying to see his face" yet she couldn't. She was mere feet from him. He's wearing a hoodie and cars might drive by quickly. Yes, he just took his chances... had to get to his car before LE was called. He probably turned his head away from any cameras that probably wouldn't have been able to give a good visual ID anyway.
And, there is always the possibility he went that way because HIS ride was late but he hadn't given up on the idea that his ride would come along. If that was so, his ride would not find him if he was in the park. For all we know, someone picked him up before he had to walk too far anyway. I'm sure, if there is an accomplice, they would be able to communicate by phone when it was time to be picked up.
This is all just my speculation and opinion.
edit to clarify

Yes, agree. Once up behind cemetery he had to decide trail or road. MOO road a lot more anonymous.

 

[Boxer]

If you were to take a Carhartt jacket similar to the one Richard Allen owned and put a gun in the same pocket and took a picture from the same distance as the one of the man on the bridge, would they look similar? The blue jacket the person on the bridge is wearing seems like it has thinner material so it is easier to see the outline of a gun from a distance. I do not know anything about Carhartt jackets.

I cannot explain away the fact that a bullet from Richard Allen's gun was found at the scene of the crime. But it is still hard to believe he is the killer.

I have a question that might not be relevant, but I wanted to know: Since the crime happened the day before Valentine's Day 2017, did Richard Allen buy his wife a Valentine's Day card?

Can you tell me who said the jacket was specifically Carhartt?
Cathartic does have some thinner jackets, but what is the source of this exact brand? If the source is RA dismiss it.

 

[TL4S]

No, your post was clear... I really couldn't remember if the call connected or not. Somehow I think the phone could not have been heard or, if it was, BG was unable to find it. Otherwise, I think he would have taken it with him when he left the park. That was my thought, too, about how long the girls were forced to be with him. If the phone call went through at 3:11 then I can only hope that those 2 girls were already gone. That sounds like a terrible thing to say but not when you really think about it.

You could be right about the phone not being heard, because here it says K was standing on the road below the bridge calling L's phone, could hear ringing on her end, but not L's phone ringing in that area. I'm not sure how far away you could hear a phone ringing, but maybe it was on silent or vibrate. L knew her dad would be calling, though, so it had to be in vibrate, at least, imo. For some reason, I thought it went dead a lot sooner than what this source says.

https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline

What's creepy about it all is that muddy and bloody guy was seen around 3:57. That's around the time DG was headed back to his car and the rest of the family had been calling for a half hour, so for those 30 minutes, the killer was in the woods or near the road at the same time DG was on the trails, with L's phone ringing/vibrating that whole time. For all we know, they were still alive when he pulled into that lot (but maybe not). Because of the timing, and regardless of the phone, I still wonder if L didn't tell him her dad would be coming soon, as a means to try to get him to leave them alone. It makes me sick.

 

[Boxer]

You could be right about the phone not being heard, because here it says K was standing on the road below the bridge calling L's phone, could hear ringing on her end, but not L's phone ringing in that area. I'm not sure how far away you could hear a phone ringing, but maybe it was on silent or vibrate. L knew her dad would be calling, though, so it had to be in vibrate, at least, imo. For some reason, I thought it went dead a lot sooner than what this source says.

https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline

What's creepy about it all is that muddy and bloody guy was seen around 3:57. That's around the time DG was headed back to his car and the rest of the family had been calling for a half hour, so for those 30 minutes, the killer was in the woods or near the road at the same time DG was on the trails, with L's phone ringing/vibrating that whole time. For all we know, they were still alive when he pulled into that lot (but maybe not). Because of the timing, and regardless of the phone, I still wonder if L didn't tell him her dad would be coming soon, as a means to try to get him to leave them alone. It makes me sick.

MOO or walked the ridge behind the cemetery toward the trail and
realized the trail and Mears lot was filling up with people looking for the girls.

 

[Boxer]

You could be right about the phone not being heard, because here it says K was standing on the road below the bridge calling L's phone, could hear ringing on her end, but not L's phone ringing in that area. I'm not sure how far away you could hear a phone ringing, but maybe it was on silent or vibrate. L knew her dad would be calling, though, so it had to be in vibrate, at least, imo. For some reason, I thought it went dead a lot sooner than what this source says.

https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline

What's creepy about it all is that muddy and bloody guy was seen around 3:57. That's around the time DG was headed back to his car and the rest of the family had been calling for a half hour, so for those 30 minutes, the killer was in the woods or near the road at the same time DG was on the trails, with L's phone ringing/vibrating that whole time. For all we know, they were still alive when he pulled into that lot (but maybe not). Because of the timing, and regardless of the phone, I still wonder if L didn't tell him her dad would be coming soon, as a means to try to get him to leave them alone. It makes me sick.

DGs first call at 3:11 rang.
His second call at 3:14 went straight to VM. Kelsi says her call rang through. Strange. If the phone gets turned off or goes out of power it goes to VM.

 

[Bbgiraffe]

-- Other past posters have alluded to it but, per point 3 at top, could BG have drugged them with what he thought was a type of tranquilizer or anesthesia so that they would not be able to effectively fight off whatever his purposes were, and they begrudgingly at gunpoint consumed what he gave them? (thereby never getting to above points 4 & 5) But then to BG's surprise they convulsed or stopped realized he'd mistakenly killed them. [and if the mind imagines farther, what if killed them via a drug that only someone who worked at a pharmacy might have access to]. Knowing if he leaves them as is, the autopsy results could point squarely toward someone with direct knowledge of drugs and since he was likely the only CVS employee seen at bridge that day.... Then in haste he decides to frame/pose the killings as a shooting and racks his slide accordingly (ejecting the unspent round) but then realizes the effect of forensic evidence, so goes to Plan C with another object, trying to divert the attention away from the autopsy to the wounds, markings, blood, etc. with an undiscoverable weapon or a gloved strangulation of 1/both. Admittedly this all JMO or a version that connects some dots. It does flow with the LE statement of "no visible signs of struggle at the CS" which of course the victims would have passed prior to any physical contact. The scene also flows with Ives' statement of a lot of evidence at the crime scene as well as DC's statement of "complex with tentacles" given an autopsy report of drugs yet beatings and which did they die from?? By the time the bodies were found there may have been DNA on the bullet but tested as saliva from an animal (deer?) or animal hair fibers or animal bite marks from a more predator-type animal overnight that further seemed to lend evidence but actually complicated the CS. Again, all just theory/MOO.

Regardless of how Richard Allen tried to "stage" the murder, if drugs were involved, the autopsy would show that. And if they were prescription drugs, they would definitely check into the pharmacies in town. Also, pharmacies have very tight controls on prescriptions, especially controlled substance prescriptions like those that would incapacitate people. Frequent inventories and they would immediately notice missing medication, watch security tape and catch whoever took it.

As far as how he would control both girls? Grab one by the wrists, gun to head. Do what I say and I won't kill your friend. I gotta think Libby tried to run though, wasn't her shoe found some ways from the clothes in the creek and the scene? Maybe she ran right out of her shoe, tripped and it was all over with.

 

[TL4S]

DGs first call at 3:11 rang.
His second call at 3:14 went straight to VM. Kelsi says her call rang through. Strange. If the phone gets turned off or goes out of power it goes to VM.

See, I thought the 3:14 call went to VM too. Where are we getting that? I still think the phone might have been in the water.

 

[TL4S]

Now that we know clothes were found in the creek, I wonder how nobody saw the clothing that evening or next morning when they were searching. Was it all underwater when found? I wonder which side of the creek the shoe was found, and the clothing, and if the clothing floated downstream from where the shoe was?

 

[mrjitty]

What's creepy about it all is that muddy and bloody guy was seen around 3:57. That's around the time DG was headed back to his car and the rest of the family had been calling for a half hour, so for those 30 minutes, the killer was in the woods or near the road at the same time DG was on the trails, with L's phone ringing/vibrating that whole time.

RSBM for focus

Thinking to what provided PC for the search warrant, I suspect the combination of cell tower evidence plus the witness evidence might have led to a train wreck police interview that established probable cause for a search.

As discussed, the big problem in the PCA is that the bridge is a bottle neck, and by admitting to seeing the 3 girls, RA puts himself on the bridge before the victims got there (testimony of Trail Woman). So somehow he needs to get back off the bridge before they arrive.

So there could well be a huge issue if his phone is still in the area after 3pm, or even as late as 4

I wonder if he turned it off?

His stock ticker claim seems to accept his phone was on before 2pm, so we have to anticipate LE have that from the tower(s). RA himself seems to anticipate that as well.

I do wonder why none of this is in the PCA - perhaps the analysis simply isn't well developed yet?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Most definitely! Which is why, IMO, we should watch what we say on the this thread.

I seriously doubt that a skilled defense attorney needs our help to research and strategize. Maybe some people think that much of their posts, and maybe, for their posts, it's warranted. But I'm sure any decent defense attorney can research and strategize circles around me, on their worst day. MOO I don't think we have to worry too much about giving something away on WS.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I don't really see how or why you have come to this conclusion...

So many reasons, but people are pretty divided. There's no sense debating it by rehashing what's been posted already. Probably best at this point to just wait and see what evidence they do or they don't have and watch as it plays out. MOO

 

[Boxer]

RSBM for focus

Thinking to what provided PC for the search warrant, I suspect the combination of cell tower evidence plus the witness evidence might have led to a train wreck police interview that established probable cause for a search.

As discussed, the big problem in the PCA is that the bridge is a bottle neck, and by admitting to seeing the 3 girls, RA puts himself on the bridge before the victims got there (testimony of Trail Woman). So somehow he needs to get back off the bridge before they arrive.

So there could well be a huge issue if his phone is still in the area after 3pm, or even as late as 4

I wonder if he turned it off?

His stock ticker claim seems to accept his phone was on before 2pm, so we have to anticipate LE have that from the tower(s). RA himself seems to anticipate that as well.

I do wonder why none of this is in the PCA - perhaps the analysis simply isn't well developed yet?

The cell data not needed for the arrest. But if they had all area phone data his phone is a mystery.

Did they accept seeing a phone on the trail that switched off or remain stationary right before the murders and not follow up?
or did they know there was a phone but couldn’t trace it’s owner?

 

[mrjitty]

I seriously doubt that a skilled defense attorney needs our help to research and strategize. Maybe some people think that much of their posts, and maybe, for their posts, it's warranted. But I'm sure any decent defense attorney can research and strategize circles around me, on their worst day. MOO I don't think we have to worry too much about giving something away on WS.

While this is in general true, as counsel have access to detailed evidence we don't have, i certainly have seen examples of superior analysis on here compared to what was presented at trial.

For instance, poster @JudgeJudi was involved in some insights on Pistorius that were missed at trial. Ditto on McStay there was some very good crowdsourced work on the accused version that were missed at trial.

It's also the case that the state or defence often don't have the resources to create animated timelines or insanely detailed spreadsheets like people do on here.

Finally there are sometimes basic mistakes - this was clearly the case as regards technical evidence in the pistorius trial, where things were assumed about operation of apps on iphone which were incorrect.

 

[mrjitty]

The cell data not needed for the arrest. But if they had all area phone data his phone is a mystery.

Did they accept seeing a phone on the trail that switched off or remain stationary right before the murders and not follow up?
or did they know there was a phone but couldn’t trace it’s owner?

yes this is a strange aspect, because if they couldn't trace the owner - wouldn't they have been able to get a warrant for that device ID, to see at least where it was in following days?

Let's assume it's a burner for arguments sake - couldn't they at least pull records for that number?

 

[Boxer]

yes this is a strange aspect, because if they couldn't trace the owner - wouldn't they have been able to get a warrant for that device ID, to see at least where it was in following days?

Let's assume it's a burner for arguments sake - couldn't they at least pull records for that number?

Agree. Pull records going back days or expand area until something showed identity.

 

[Yemelyan]

Now that we know clothes were found in the creek, I wonder how nobody saw the clothing that evening or next morning when they were searching. Was it all underwater when found? I wonder which side of the creek the shoe was found, and the clothing, and if the clothing floated downstream from where the shoe was?

JMO but I think these could be the reasons no one saw the clothes until later on: 1. It got dark quickly when people first started searching; 2. The clothes were upstream from the shoe/bridge and the search was focused downstream towards Delphi; 3. The clothes were entangled in branches of half-submerged limbs/trees when spotted.

 

[mrjitty]

Agree. Pull records going back days or expand area until something showed identity.

So logically he either chucked the phone (burner) or he never had it on and was lying

 

[5W's]

Granted. But these 3 juveniles collectively saw only one man. They may describe his clothing somewhat differently but they did not see one man wearing jeans and a blue jacket and later a different man wearing black. They all saw only one adult man. At the same time. And that one man acknowledges that he saw the 3 juveniles at the same time and location they saw him.

The defense could try it I suppose, to attempt to interject this "man in black", but the man in black was not on the bridge. The man in jeans and a blue jacket was on the bridge moments before Abby and Libby reached it, which RA admits. And RA saw no man in black in the vicinity either. Nor did anyone else. My opinion only.

I wonder if he had a black trenchcoat on? And then took it off somewhere out of camera view. This way he would be covered and jeans wouldn't be visible. I could be wrong here because I'm just catching up and there is another explanation for the witnesses seeing the black clothing? Ya the only problem with the black trenchcoat is where would it be disposed? Searchers would have found it for one thing if it was disposed in the area and it could be traced back to him. Or he could have rolled up the trenchcoat and hid it in the jacket he was wearing underneath. He may have worn a trenchcoat to throw off potential witnesses? Or to cover himself up? IDK just trying to find answers for the "wearing black confusion." I probably haven't read it all. My apologies if I'm mistaken.

 

[Bergmann]

I seriously doubt that a skilled defense attorney needs our help to research and strategize. Maybe some people think that much of their posts, and maybe, for their posts, it's warranted. But I'm sure any decent defense attorney can research and strategize circles around me, on their worst day. MOO I don't think we have to worry too much about giving something away on WS.

+1 and so much this. If you've ever seen lawyers in prep and action they absolutely don't need any starters from amateurs. I come from a family of practicing lawyers and the juniors will have already spun out more scenarios and possibilities within the first 48 hrs than WS will have over the last 5 yrs.

Also this isn't WS first rodeo with regard to speculating on live/ ongoing investigations. If defence or prosecution were using things like WS to prompt their thinking then I think we might have seen evidence of this and adjustments to the AUP and so on.

 

[5W's]

JMO but I think these could be the reasons no one saw the clothes until later on: 1. It got dark quickly when people first started searching; 2. The clothes were upstream from the shoe/bridge and the search was focused downstream towards Delphi; 3. The clothes were entangled in branches of half-submerged limbs/trees when spotted.

I think your theories explain my thinking a trenchcoat was used somehow. I agree this could be the reason he wasn't detected and he told conservation officer what he did.